NZDF General discussion thread

[Rob c]

Yes this concerns me as well. With all the recent insults from Trump too about allies 'holding back' regarding Afghanistan and regarding Nato, or his comments downplaying the need for AUKUS. Could he throw a tantrum one day and refuse to sell defence assets or force us to pay a premium for that,on top of the tarrifs we already have.
Can we even rely on them to aid us if we are threatened? I wonder if our politicians will factor that into the defence budget.

My personal view is that the US must now be rated as unreliable and that we need to build a defence force that can actually defend us at least for a limited period of time. However our politicians are unlikely to want to spend the necessary funds as they won't see a political gain for themselvesin the immediate future, they still seem to think that they can what until a direct threat appears.
The reality that it takes decades to re-establish defence capabilities is either not realised or does not accure to them. There will be plattatudes spoken some increases in budget, but never enough and the public will be told that everything is under control, when it is far from the truth, that is the way our pollies work.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Problem too is of course how many types of roles our Navy has to play, with only what, 8 hulls? So we need Frigates, 2 has been proven insufficient and thats widely agreed on, one AOR , one Sealift , 2 Opv, two Ipv our current fleet, so could a 'commonality of hull types be achieved in a future fleet? Would Japan or British shipbuilders be better choice for a whole of fleet replacement ? Or maybe even South Korea or Norway?

 

[Catalina]

Problem too is of course how many types of roles our Navy has to play

The security of New Zealand rests upon the Sea.

New Zealand is an isolated maritime island trading nation critically dependent upon shipping.
If the ships stop, New Zealand stops.

The greatest threat to New Zealand is naval interdiction operations by Communist China.
PLAN submarines and surface task forces and maritime militia fleets operating out of the Solomon Islands cut NZ off from the world.

We require four new Improved Mogami Class frigates. These warships can be built in Japan (and Australia) and serviced in Australia. 2 fully equipped for combat operations. 2 FFBNW with patrol and training. Aotearoa provides tanking and replenishments. The replacement for Canterbury provides sealift.

Our Navy thus only needs to buy two types of warships, four Improved Class Mogami Frigates, as per our Australian ally, and one new sealift warship. All operating the excellent, and potent, MH-60R Seahawks with ASuW Hellfires and AAW AGR-20F FALCOs for fleet drone protection. Fleet Air Arm support is provided by P-8 Poseidons carrying AGM-158C Long Range Anti-Ship Missiles. This also reduces us to just three types of warships - Improved Mogamis, Aotearoa, and the Sea Lift.

NZ should transition to a maritime focused Defence Force able to Defend Our Critical SLOCs from submarines, Project Power across the wide blue expanse of the Realm of New Zealand, and Support our Ally Australia with the same maritime assets and doctrine.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

The security of New Zealand rests upon the Sea.

New Zealand is an isolated maritime island trading nation critically dependent upon shipping.
If the ships stop, New Zealand stops.

The greatest threat to New Zealand is naval interdiction operations by Communist China.
PLAN submarines and surface task forces and maritime militia fleets operating out of the Solomon Islands cut NZ off from the world.

We require four new Improved Mogami Class frigates. These warships can be built in Japan (and Australia) and serviced in Australia. 2 fully equipped for combat operations. 2 FFBNW with patrol and training. Aotearoa provides tanking and replenishments. The replacement for Canterbury provides sealift.

Our Navy thus only needs to buy two types of warships, four Improved Class Mogami Frigates, as per our Australian ally, and one new sealift warship. All operating the excellent, and potent, MH-60R Seahawks with ASuW Hellfires and AAW AGR-20F FALCOs for fleet drone protection. Fleet Air Arm support is provided by P-8 Poseidons carrying AGM-158C Long Range Anti-Ship Missiles. This also reduces us to just three types of warships - Improved Mogamis, Aotearoa, and the Sea Lift.

NZ should transition to a maritime focused Defence Force able to Defend Our Critical SLOCs from submarines, Project Power across the wide blue expanse of the Realm of New Zealand, and Support our Ally Australia with the same maritime assets and doctrine.

Agreed about commonality with our closest ally Australia. But are those Mogami being built in Japan or Austrailia? If so could Austrailia shipyards handle an extra 3 to 4 frigates, HMNZS Canterbury replacement and potentially a extra sealift vessel as proposed by the defence budget? Would we be paying a premium for that or would costs go down as its a big order to fill? This would likely mean a budget blowout , not that im against that if we end up with what we need, on schedule and can crew them of course.

 

[Wombat000]

It makes total logical sense to have any Mogamis ordered by NZ, to be built in Japan.
They are the most likely to have capacity, they would’ve already built some if not all their contracted Australian versions, and Australian yards won’t have the capacity anyway.

Besides, building in Japan will probably be cheaper too.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

It makes total logical sense to have any Mogamis ordered by NZ, to be built in Japan.
They are the most likely to have capacity, they would’ve already built some if not all their contracted Australian versions, and Australian yards won’t have the capacity anyway.

Besides, building in Japan will probably be cheaper too.

I was thinking about SOPV too. Is Canada's Harry de wolf class still a viable option to build or has that 'ship sailed' ? unintended pun.

 

[Rob c]

The security of New Zealand rests upon the Sea.

New Zealand is an isolated maritime island trading nation critically dependent upon shipping.
If the ships stop, New Zealand stops.

The greatest threat to New Zealand is naval interdiction operations by Communist China.
PLAN submarines and surface task forces and maritime militia fleets operating out of the Solomon Islands cut NZ off from the world.

We require four new Improved Mogami Class frigates. These warships can be built in Japan (and Australia) and serviced in Australia. 2 fully equipped for combat operations. 2 FFBNW with patrol and training. Aotearoa provides tanking and replenishments. The replacement for Canterbury provides sealift.

Our Navy thus only needs to buy two types of warships, four Improved Class Mogami Frigates, as per our Australian ally, and one new sealift warship. All operating the excellent, and potent, MH-60R Seahawks with ASuW Hellfires and AAW AGR-20F FALCOs for fleet drone protection. Fleet Air Arm support is provided by P-8 Poseidons carrying AGM-158C Long Range Anti-Ship Missiles. This also reduces us to just three types of warships - Improved Mogamis, Aotearoa, and the Sea Lift.

NZ should transition to a maritime focused Defence Force able to Defend Our Critical SLOCs from submarines, Project Power across the wide blue expanse of the Realm of New Zealand, and Support our Ally Australia with the same maritime assets and doctrine.

The reality is that we are vulnerable from both air and sea and that we need to be able to protect ourselves in both mediums. In the event of conflict trade in the traditional form will stop and only that which is necessary for our survival will continue. Everything to and from China japan korea and taiwan will stop because of chinese naval proximity and our ability to protect shipping in the Pacific will be marginal at best due to the distances involved.
the best option I see is maintaining in conjunction with Australia sea lanes in the tasman sea and possible transit of the Indian ocean for basics.
The reality is we need to be able to protect ourselves from threats from both sea and air.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

The reality is that we are vulnerable from both air and sea and that we need to be able to protect ourselves in both mediums. In the event of conflict trade in the traditional form will stop and only that which is necessary for our survival will continue. Everything to and from China japan korea and taiwan will stop because of chinese naval proximity and our ability to protect shipping in the Pacific will be marginal at best due to the distances involved.
the best option I see is maintaining in conjunction with Australia sea lanes in the tasman sea and possible transit of the Indian ocean for basics.
The reality is we need to be able to protect ourselves from threats from both sea and air.

Purchasing long range drones has been mentioned in the defence review. . If hypothetically if we did say go for 2 or three Seaguardian to suppliment the P8 Poseidens duties, do we have the funding for that , or is it a personell issue? Also, how long would it take to get it up and running?

 

[Warhawk]

I think NZ has to get a Riggle on with Defence purchases as most of western countries are moving forward with their purchases the longer we take to modernize timeframes will be drawn out.

 

[Catalina]

Agreed about commonality with our closest ally Australia. But are those Mogami being built in Japan or Austrailia? If so could Austrailia shipyards handle an extra 3 to 4 frigates, HMNZS Canterbury replacement and potentially a extra sealift vessel as proposed by the defence budget? Would we be paying a premium for that or would costs go down as its a big order to fill? This would likely mean a budget blowout , not that im against that if we end up with what we need, on schedule and can crew them of course.

Either Australia or Japan will be able to build the 4 Improved Mogami Class frigates we are buying, 2 combat frigates and 2 patrol frigates FFBNW weapons. It doesnt really matter which. For those of us who have owned boats and aircraft, the stinger isn't the up front purchase cost. Its the ongoing servicing, maintaince, upgrades, and repairs that bite. Extend these costs over the 30+ year life span of these frigates. Its a no brainer to have warships that can be serviced, maintained, upgraded, and repaired across the ditch in the growing naval ship yards of our only ally Australia.

As for the Strategic Sealift replacement for Canterbury, get her built in Korea. They did an excellent job with Aotearoa and will with Canterbury's replacement, HMNZS New Zealand.

The new New Zealand Navy (all ships equipped with Drones and MH-60R Seahawks configured for ASW, ASuW, and AA missiles)
4 New Improved Mogami Class Frigates
- 2 Combat Ready (HMNZS North Island, HMNZS South Island)
- 2 Patrol Ready (HMNZS Stewart Island, HMNZS Chatham Islands)
1 Replenishment Tanker (HMNZS Aotearoa)
1 Strategic Sealift Transporter (HMNZS New Zealand)

 

[Warhawk]

I find it hard to understand how draw out military equipment takes with NZ . We purchase B757 replacements before navy helicopter (5) which quality is well short unless going purchase 2 replacement frigates ? So are purchasing drones to complement which should be purchased at same time or are running with A-109kn helicopters as submits. I would prefer drones ship based and long range land based should already be on order . Next cab off the rack should armament of current equipment P-8 and current frigates this all should be on order no later than 2026 . And then frigate replacement if we want to be taken seriously should be more 2 frigates. I was expecting more out Judith she nothing to lose more to gain by going out supporting NZ defence force I wish Ron got more time I believe we would more advanced into updating our Armed forces then where we sit.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

I find it hard to understand how draw out military equipment takes with NZ . We purchase B757 replacements before navy helicopter (5) which quality is well short unless going purchase 2 replacement frigates ? So are purchasing drones to complement which should be purchased at same time or are running with A-109kn helicopters as submits. I would prefer drones ship based and long range land based should already be on order . Next cab off the rack should armament of current equipment P-8 and current frigates this all should be on order no later than 2026 . And then frigate replacement if we want to be taken seriously should be more 2 frigates. I was expecting more out Judith she nothing to lose more to gain by going out supporting NZ defence force I wish Ron got more time I believe we would more advanced into updating our Armed forces then where we sit.

Agreed. Hmnzs Canterbury too. Shes supposed to be getting a additional similar ship by 2029. Yet where's the movement on that? The tender process and request for info on that alone could take a few!

 

[recce.k1]

I find it hard to understand how draw out military equipment takes with NZ .

Guys some 28 major projects were announced last year (2025-2029) and on top of existing projects that were already underway. I'd hazard a guess that defence project teams dealing with the existing projects will need to expand to also deal with the new projects, which takes time and also requires experienced service personnel to be brought in to join the project teams and therefore away from their primary roles, all of which needs to be carefully managed to minimise disruption (and loss of leadership or institutional knowledge) within their existing units.

Also, service personnel will need to be trained on any new systems and expand in numbers, this is happening but again this takes time. Even if we could order new kit today and it magically appeared the next day ... it would likely remain in storage as we may not be in a position to actually utilise it in the short term.

A good example of managing the introduction of a new capability is the recent news that we will work with our allies to upgrade the Poseidon's strike and ISR capabilities. Presumably this involves (and fast tracks) ground (and air) crew on learning to support a new ASuW weapon type, perhaps not as easy as it sounds because of the loss of experienced trades when the ACF was disbanded. The knowledge gained would then inform how best to resource these trades as they grow over time and develop safe operating procedures.

As for the naval helicopter replacement project I think some people are misreading the situation. The announcement was for 5 helos and 3-5 unmanned aerial "team" platforms (so 8-10 new platforms plus weapon fit outs and new infrastructure), for the existing vessel fleet numbers. If the Naval Fleet Review concludes the fleet needs to grow then it follows that additional helos will be required, which is do-able as the MH-60 has an active production line. Put it this way, Treasury and therefore Cabinet won't sign off funding for a greater number of helos at this point in time, until there is a determination on the size of the RNZN fleet and that it is then approved. It's common sense.

On top of that we have to grow personnel numbers to operate and sustain both vessels and aerial platforms (plus all the bean counter stuff like increasing operating budgets over time).

Whatever one thinks of DefMin Collins, her seniority meant that defence has (soon to be had) a strong advocate that backed them around the Cabinet table to obtain a substantial increase in funding (of which has not been seen in decades). It is now up to her successor to continue the "good fight" at the highest levels. There was a news article the other day speculating that Ron Mark could be interested in returning to politics at the forthcoming election eyeing up the defence portfolio ...

 

[Rob c]

Whatever one thinks of DefMin Collins, her seniority meant that defence has (soon to be had) a strong advocate that backed them around the Cabinet table to obtain a substantial increase in funding

My personal view is that she was appointed to ensure a lid was kept on expenditure and that was the reason for the delay in releasing the DCP, not. the changing strategic situation as stated.
If you go back to 2017 there was a report that $20B was required over the next 15 years to replace existing equipment, this was excepted by both major parties. What is now proposed is what is left over from this, refocused and retimed and not really a great increase on what was needed anyway. A classic pollitical slight of hand to take away from Peter to pay Paul

 

[recce.k1]

Further "drone" acquisitions announced.

Delivery of air, land, and sea drones will occur over the coming months, including the SG400 Uncrewed Ground Vehicle, the SM300 Uncrewed Surface Vessel, the SA2 ISR drone and the SA7 one way effector drone.

RN also trialing the SM300 which should be of interest to the RNZN.

Tauranga robotics company to supply NZ Defence Force with drones

The air, land and sea drones will be trialled by the Army and the Navy.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[Warhawk]

Good to see but combat capable drones would be good for army.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

My personal view is that she was appointed to ensure a lid was kept on expenditure and that was the reason for the delay in releasing the DCP, not. the changing strategic situation as stated.
If you go back to 2017 there was a report that $20B was required over the next 15 years to replace existing equipment, this was excepted by both major parties. What is now proposed is what is left over from this, refocused and retimed and not really a great increase on what was needed anyway. A classic pollitical slight of hand to take away from Peter to pay Paul

I was wondering given the capability of existing systems like seaguardian and Triton drones for long range maritime patrol, what would be the disadvantages over having eventually a entire squadron of these apart from manned aircraft that cost more to buy, more to fuel? These drones also can stay on station for up to 3 times as long as a P8 too. Though they cant get there as quick. We could of have 8 of these funded easily enough instead of P8.They could also have been armed in a secondary role with the proposed strike capability.

 

[Gibbo]

Good to see but combat capable drones would be good for army.

This is just the start (finally!) ... I wouldn't assume this is all they'll be getting.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Good to see but combat capable drones would be good for army.

just about any drone that can carry a payload can become a combat capable drone "in some form"...

 

[Warhawk]

What NZDF need is teeth