Brazilian Naval Strength

[StobieWan]

Blimey, that'd be an interesting turn of events, seeing Mk41 replaced by A50 - I guess the F105's are close on margins for topweight so ditching the need for illuminators of any sort would be handy but the CEAFAR/CEAPAR combination is pretty potent.

I'll be interested to see how that turns out.Might be an opportunity to pitch 'em CAMM

 

[RobWilliams]

Seems like dispite the indecision that struck F-X2 about funds seems not to have carried over to their aircraft carrier program which is something - according to their DefMin - and that there will be the requirement within the next 15 years.

Brazil Plans to Build Aircraft Carrier, Defense Minister Says - Bloomberg

Brazil plans to build an aircraft carrier with a foreign partner as part of an effort to enhance its military readiness, Defense Minister Celso Amorim told reporters today.

“The idea is for it to be built in Brazil, probably based on an existing project,” Amorim told a group of foreign correspondents. Latin America’s largest country will require a new aircraft carrier within 15 years and will modernize its existing one in the meantime, Amorim said.

As well as a link from here too

Brazil to build own aircraft carrier: defense minister | Navy & Maritime Security News at DefenceTalk

So the choice remains STOBAR or CATOBAR Gripen NG on a (probably) already existing blueprint which comes down to either the UK, France or Italy who have designs for a ship of a good size which will offer a good capability.

All three countries which are included in talks regarding their frigate replacement capability as well as a RAS requirement.

 

[IgorPaes]

Hello there,
New to the forum, so if a break any rules, please excuse me.

I'm not really knowledgeable in Navy matters, so i'd like to propose a couple things:
1) Can you guys give me an overview as how we stand?

2)Mental exercise:
If you had a clean slate, how would you equip the whole Navy and how much do you expect it to cost.
I'm thinking some things to consider (feel free to suggest others) :
- Consider in-land navigation as well (specially jungle warfare, think Amazon, dense florest, a variety of depts and widths, etc).
- huge coastal areas
- affinity with the new Gripen NG
- future proofness (hability to be upgraded)
- Essencial characterist: tech transfer and willingness to open manufacturing facilities in here.

What would you do in terms of ships, helicopters, missiles, weapon loads, radars. You are welcome to specify anything from carriers to 6 people fishing-like patrol boats.

I wonder: will you guys consider a Nuclear Carrier? There is enough money and mental power to build one, i'm sure. Is it worth it? I think yes, but have no idea which project is the best.

 

[RobWilliams]

In terms of aircraft carriers, the case for Brazil to acquire carriers in any form is debatable at best. Especially nuclear carriers which would be a very big no for a few reasons including but not limited to the cost.

Trouble with a clean slate is you need to know what sort of threats the country wants to protect against or how much it is willing to protect its interests abroad. For example the UK has a high stake in terms of energy security in the Middle East so security in that area is a big thing requiring power projection. What sort of things are threats for Brazil?

It's not just threats, but the entire global engagement policy. Does Brazil forsee itself getting involved in humanitarian levels in a big way? Does it believe amphibious ships are required?

IMO if Brazil has a mild ambition for global priorities then a good core of MPA, OPVs & frigates for protecting local coastline. SSKs if there's a need to counter neighbouring countries or to chase off any inquisitive submarines.

Carriers, SSNs, amphibious vessels, AWDs & RAS ships are - IMO - the indicators of the ambitions of a navy, if they want to be able to project power at a distance or not. But they need the requirement, otherwise it's a very expensive white elephant.

 

[the concerned]

What do people think about the designs coming out of India I think both iac2 and 3 would suit brazil plus maybe a collaberation on projects like the kc-390. I would also see them being cheaper than a European design. On another note does anyone know if the Kitty hawk and John f kennedy been scrapped yet. Could these be refurbished for a comparable price.

 

[RobWilliams]

Nip refurbing any of the old US carriers in the bud. Steam powerplants and associated equipment are MASSIVE in terms of manpower and if F-X2 has shown us anything it's that operating cost is a factor. Why waste money refurbing an old system when modern GTAs can do the work better, more efficiently and at a cheaper price?

I'll have faith in the Indian designs when they're not changing them drastically every ship in class and throwing around ridiculous plans for future carriers.

Wouldn't be so sure about being 'cheaper' either.

If I were them, a slightly larger Cavour would be about right or even DCNS' conventional carrier being offered. Those - IMO - are the better options than buying Indian right now. Let them get their first in class in the water first and having some experience building carriers.

 

[swerve]

What do people think about the designs coming out of India I think both iac2 and 3 would suit brazil plus maybe a collaberation on projects like the kc-390. I would also see them being cheaper than a European design. On another note does anyone know if the Kitty hawk and John f kennedy been scrapped yet. Could these be refurbished for a comparable price.

I also would not trust an Indian design. India has never built an indigenously designed carrier: IAC1 has strong influence from Cavour, no doubt via the design consultancy (tens of millions of dollars worth) provided by Fincantieri & Avio. I'd not want to buy a design from India until it has shown it can build a carrier unaided. If I want a Cavour-based carrier, I'll ask Fincantieri for help.

The US carriers are worn out, & as already said, maintenance-heavy even when new.

 

[StobieWan]

Well, Brazil has shown an appetite for buying worn out maintenance hogs in the past ...their current carrier for instance..

I don't think it's a goer as they've repeatedly stated they want a domestic project - and in any event, their replacement is allegedly 10-15 years away so I'd be looking to French, Italian and perhaps (if the QE's impress) British designs.

 

[Volkodav]

Well, Brazil has shown an appetite for buying worn out maintenance hogs in the past ...their current carrier for instance..

I don't think it's a goer as they've repeatedly stated they want a domestic project - and in any event, their replacement is allegedly 10-15 years away so I'd be looking to French, Italian and perhaps (if the QE's impress) British designs.

I do expect the QE's to impress, the UK is very good at platforms and this particular platform is ground breaking.

In 10 to 15 years time the QE will be proven, EMALs (on the Ford) will be proven and an evolved CTOL QE with EMALs and an air group of Gripen NGs could be a very attractive proposition for Brazil.

 

[RobWilliams]

In 10 to 15 years time the QE will be proven, EMALs (on the Ford) will be proven and an evolved CTOL QE with EMALs and an air group of Gripen NGs could be a very attractive proposition for Brazil.

Which for Brazil is the problem, AFAIK they're looking much sooner than that before they begin construction of a replacement in a configuration they are being very guarded about doing.

STOBAR or CATOBAR. Gripen NG can do both.

 

[Volkodav]

Which for Brazil is the problem, AFAIK they're looking much sooner than that before they begin construction of a replacement in a configuration they are being very guarded about doing.

STOBAR or CATOBAR. Gripen NG can do both.

True and CVF was future proofed, at a costs. The actual platform, while not cheap is affordable and designed with through life costs in mind, Brazil Could do worse

 

[AegisFC]

Well, Brazil has shown an appetite for buying worn out maintenance hogs in the past ...their current carrier for instance..

Yes but it falls under the category of "what other choices were there?"

 

[Volkodav]

Yes but it falls under the category of "what other choices were there?"

Compared to what India had to go though it was probably worth it. It has kept them in the game long enough to consider a long term replacement.

 

[RobWilliams]

One of those things, now those sorts of 'cheap' carriers don't really exist anymore and aren't necessarily the best option anyway.

IMO Brazil has to demonstrate the requirement for an aircraft carrier in some form or another, do they want to project power at a distance? Because if so, there's a whole lot of auxiliary systems needing to be bought to support that capability and it won't come cheap.

Considering their future frigate requirement - AFAIK - is for 5 frigates then that lends itself to them not having the escort capacity to support a CBG as well as all of the maritime policing duties in Brazilian waters as Brazil doesn't have a coastguard.

 

[RobWilliams]

Brazil selects CAMM to arm their new Tamandare class corvettes for LAAD, news is light right now. No idea (yet) on contract worth, the class itself is still under development* so there hasn't been a spec sheet released. All we know is 2400t vessel with a main gun**, AShM which'll be MM40 Exocet & now CAMM. She'll also be able to embark a helo, no indication on size.

Another detail included is competitors (if any), as of right now we don't know.

Brazil selects MBDA Sea Ceptor for new corvettes - IHS Jane's 360
Brazil Orders Sea Ceptor Air Defense Missile | Defense News | defensenews.com

* VARD Niterói are due to draw up a design in Feb

** Janes compares the corvettes to the current Barroso class corvettes, they've got a 4.5in currently but BAE Systems have already said they're cutting support for the type by 2035 IIRC, so if the ISD is meant to be 2020 then they'll need swapping over to something else. Or else something like a 76mm perhaps?

In a F-X2 news article about the Gripen contract signing, it was expressed that the Brazilian Navy currently has a notional requirement for 24 fighters to equip their carrier.

Brazil signs for 36 Gripen E/F fighters - IHS Jane's 360

We've yet to see if this holds up however, the rumours about Brazil looking for a pair of modern carriers are still rumours and I doubt Sao Paulo will be about by the time Brazil is building their own Gripens and able to start building naval Gripens.

 

[swerve]

That Brazilian Sea Ceptor selection is on the MBDA website now.

 

[RobWilliams]

Nice that MBDA has confirmed CAMM can still hit surface targets, it was a claim which stopped being thrown around for a few years so figured it probably got dropped.

 

[RobWilliams]

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2265

Flight tests of fitting two AM39 Exocets and a maritime imaging radar system (AN/APS-143) to verify previous feasibility testing.

This upgrade will be made to 8 of the Brazilian Navy's aircraft (designated UH-15) and be redesign aged UH-15A.

Bit unsure why this modification is being persued, I mean, they've got Lynx/S70-B for ASuW work. Presumably done in the name of battlefield versatility, but its a medium lift workhorse and they want to hang Exocets off it?

 

[swerve]

Aren't a pair of Exocets bit heavy for Lynx? AM.39 is more than twice as heavy as Sting Ray, & AFAIK that's the heaviest weapon carried by Lynx.

 

[RobWilliams]

Looking at the Wiki figures (I know) it would take up almost the entire payload of the thing. The Brazilian Navy uses Sea Skua for their Lynx (Sea Venom export potential?) but they use Penguin AShM in their S70-B fleet and that's something only about since 2012 or so.

Makes you wonder why they're fitting their medium lift aircraft with a missile which currently isn't present in any of their air arms. Supposedly the Brazilian Air Force has Harpoon in their inventory!