Brazilian Naval Strength

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yeah I've heard that one, but it was worded "Brazil is the country of the future, and always will be".

But yeah, definitely more than 5 if they stick to what they're currently saying. Would be cool to know if they're looking at getting AAW capabilities out of them.

But with the carrier, considering the pain in the arse the F-X2 has been just buying 36 airframes depending on the 'situation of the economy', funding a proper airgroup for their carrier would be a pain too.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hmm, a bit of a surprise article in this months Warships IFR, certainly didn't hear about it.

The French defence giant DCNS is to help Brazil with the latest stage in its plan to create a navy to match its rising economic power and global status. News that Brazil is to construct an aircraft carrier emerged shortly before it was revealed France has given up it's own ambitions to field the same kind of conventionally powered ship.
It goes on to talk about Sao Paulo & PA2, but still, it's a weird article. I mean i've heard about DCNS putting forward a concept of a Brazilian aircraft carrier at LAAD, but that's about it & there doesn't seem to be much else from third party sources about it either.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Hmm, a bit of a surprise article in this months Warships IFR, certainly didn't hear about it.



It goes on to talk about Sao Paulo & PA2, but still, it's a weird article. I mean i've heard about DCNS putting forward a concept of a Brazilian aircraft carrier at LAAD, but that's about it & there doesn't seem to be much else from third party sources about it either.
It seems to be a load of hot air from DCNS especially considering Brazil very slow procurement. Look for example how long its taken for any progress on fighter program which must be nearly two decades old
 

Arx

New Member
The Brazil DoD has no money for a new carrier.

The costs for the SAO PAULO are very high, and after the fire in 2012 it´s not foreseeable that the carrier will be renewed.

The other Projects like PROSUB or PROSUPER are also very expensive, so i can´t see a chance for a new carrier.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moved from the RN thread

Agreed that is their stated aim and it might be unlikely they would change their position. However the likely small order for naval aircraft presents significant compromises to an Air Force design.
Brazil's current attitude to the F-35 won't change, AFAIK the FAB was interested it at one point. The problem being that by and large the industrial program of the F-35 has been finalised and there's not much Brazil can do to change it, it can't grab a piece of the action.

That's the kicker, they want the industrial benefits as well as a capable fighter and the F-35 doesn't offer that.

Brazil's leaders have some grand ambitions, but as seen with the recent civil unrest not all the electorate is with them.
Same with the F-X2 program, it's very keen to be percepted as becoming a global power but appears to lack the financial will to fund the projects, preferring to defer the project deadline to 'when the economy is better' rather than actually making a definition.

As the RN/MOD has found the numbers can be hard to reconcile. The UK's learning with the switch from F35b to c and back to b, could be very helpful. We should at least share our thinking/rational, maybe as part of a visit to Rosyth.
Not much thinking to offer, if Brazil doesn't want the F-35 then it won't want STOVL (not that they want STOVL in the first place) so the reasoning why we went with the B is worthless.

Considering they're repeatedly delaying the deal due to economic performance, it makes me more and more certain that - if a decision is made - it will be the Gripen.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yup - our insights would be "if you've already half built a carrier then swapping stuff around can be expensive" - can't see that being relevant to Brazil.

As has been pointed out, tech transfer is a key point in the selection process, and they won't be offered enough incentives in terms of production/offsets to swing that. Gripen could be a serious contender, given the timescales here - or Rafale. There are still steam catapults bouncing around out there so that's not an issue really. Basically, we've no useful input on CATOBAR ops. Given how prolonged the FX competition has been to date, some of the contenders could go out of production before they could be selected :)
 

1805

New Member
Yup - our insights would be "if you've already half built a carrier then swapping stuff around can be expensive" - can't see that being relevant to Brazil.

As has been pointed out, tech transfer is a key point in the selection process, and they won't be offered enough incentives in terms of production/offsets to swing that. Gripen could be a serious contender, given the timescales here - or Rafale. There are still steam catapults bouncing around out there so that's not an issue really. Basically, we've no useful input on CATOBAR ops. Given how prolonged the FX competition has been to date, some of the contenders could go out of production before they could be selected :)
Well its only the USN that have steam catapult capability out there and they are moving out of the technology, unless you are suggesting some form of reconditioning, and then you have all the problems of steam generation. Regardless of how much the current view is CATOBAR, I can't see it getting anywhere, even with EMALS, its all to expensive and they will have been out of that game for c15 years, which I agree does favour a Gripen development and STOBAR.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
An interesting comment made by DCNS' suface ships project director at LAAD 2013 was that the Brazilians have a requirement for "one or two new aircraft carriers to replace their existing carrier, NAe Sao Paulo, after 2025."

Does make you think though, wanting a carrier is one thing, but what specifically do they need CATOBAR for? What're they expecting to be doing with a CATOBAR carrier which couldn't be served with something like a STOBAR carrier?

With respect to the Gripen, it's a fact that it will not launch in STOBAR config at it's MTOW. AFAIK the general rule of thumb is that STOBAR carriers are more for CAP and fleet air defence rather than striking land targets, it would seem to be a more appropriate doctrine for the country.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Just stick the existing cats in there - they're still being supported by the original manufacturer. A quick rub down and you're in business. Or buy US ones - I'm sure a set can be produced to order.

Orr...Emkit/Emcat...

They need CATOBAR to have a tolerable selection of choices - STOBAR or STOVL are both very curtailed offerings and STOBAR in particular has it's issues in terms of take off weight.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Well its only the USN that have steam catapult capability out there and they are moving out of the technology, unless you are suggesting some form of reconditioning, and then you have all the problems of steam generation. Regardless of how much the current view is CATOBAR, I can't see it getting anywhere, even with EMALS, its all to expensive and they will have been out of that game for c15 years, which I agree does favour a Gripen development and STOBAR.
The original manufacturer of the catapults on Sao Paulo still has the drawings. It helped recondition them when Brazil bought the ship.They're not exactly mass production items, so a custom build of a new set (perhaps with some modern refinements) probably wouldn't be much different in price from buying from the USA. Plenty of engineering firms which could do the metalwork, & the Brazilians have removed (for that refurb) & refitted the cats themselves once already, with Glaswegian help, so have a fair idea of how they're put together - as long as they hang on to that knowledge.

"they will have been out of that game for c15 years" - I don't understand this. Can you explain it, please?
 

ozi2000

New Member
Turkey's homemade corvette, UAV attract Brazil's attention

Turkey's homemade corvette, UAV attract Brazil's attention


Brazilian Defense Minister Celso Amorim is currently visiting Turkey. Cooperation in defense is one of the topics on the agenda for the ministers visit. (Photo: Today's Zaman, Mevlüt Karabulut)

20 August 2013 /AYDIN ALBAYRAK, ANKARA
Turkey's achievements in the defense industry in recent years continue to attract potential new partners such as Brazil, a leading emerging economy.
The potential for cooperation in a good number of projects in the defense industry is expected to be discussed by top-level officials from both sides as Celso Amorim, Brazilian minister of defense, is in Turkey on the occasion of the activation of the office of a military attaché at the Brazilian Embassy in Ankara.

I think we will discuss seven or eight [projects] and then concentrate on two or three of the projects, Amorim told Today's Zaman on Monday. Buying arms from one another may also come onto the agenda, but the minister particularly stressed the potential for cooperation in joint projects, but noted that it is not possible at this stage to state which projects the two countries may work on together.

Turkey's homemade corvette with stealth technology and the unmanned aerial vehicle (Anka-Phoenix) together with the attack helicopter Turkey has recently produced with the help of Italian AgustaWestland are some of the leading Turkish weapons Brazil seems to be interested in. You have a corvette which has very high standards [] very good helicopters. I think the UAV is [also] a possibility, said the minister of defense of Brazil, a country which has been busy redeveloping its own corvette. We can learn from each other and improve each other, added Amorim, a career diplomat who also served for many years as minister of foreign affairs.

For its part, the South American country is ready to cooperate with Turkey in areas in which it is stronger than Turkey, such as light fighter and civilian jets. Brazil has also been developing its own unmanned aerial vehicles with the help of the Israeli Elbit Systems. Brazil is very good at civilian airplanes, stated Amorim, who sounded hopeful about cooperation, but also noted that the two countries are at present at the learning stage, trying to get to know each other's capabilities better.

Satellites may also turn out to be a potential field of cooperation between the two countries. Turkey has been making efforts to produce its own satellite, a field where Brazil, having already produced its own satellite some years ago, is stronger than Turkey. Even satellites. Maybe we can look at it [for possible cooperation as well], the minister commented.

Turkey, having assigned a defense attaché to Brazil three years ago, is also eager to improve defense ties with South America's largest economy. In an effort to boost bilateral ties, Turkish Minister of Defense smet Ylmaz also paid a visit to Brazil last year.

As part of the strengthening of relations between the two countries, the exchange of cadets and officers may also come onto the agenda. Noting that courses are usually offered in English at academies of most armed forces in the world, Amorim stated, So, we can receive people from your war colleges, [defense] academies and vice versa. Amorim was received by President Abdullah Gül on Monday and is also expected, on Wednesday, to meet with Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutolu, with whom he is known to have very good personal relations.

The Turkish defense industry has been developing by leaps and bounds in recent years. As per data from the Defense and Aerospace Industry Manufacturers Association (SaSad), the total industry turnover, including sale of items produced by the civilian aviation industry, reached $4.4 billion in 2011, while the total exports figure amounted to $1.1 billion in the same year. The defense-only figure, which is stripped of civilian aviation items, stands at $817 million. In 2012, defense industry exports, both civilian and military, rose to $1.262 billion, while the figure was only a little over $600 million in 2007, and $850 million in 2010.

As per the strategic plan of the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) for 2012-16, the industry aims to increase yearly revenue to $8 billion and exports to $2 billion by 2016. Presently ranked 16th in terms of turnover, the industry hopes to place in the top 10 in the world by 2023, the centennial of the foundation of the Turkish Republic. Turkey is also working towards the domestic production of fighter jets, with the first test flight expected to take place in 2023.

Source: todayszaman.com/news-324057-turkeys-homemade-corvette-uav-attract-brazils-attention.html

Links;
p1308.hizliresim.com/1d/q/rsxz9.jpg
t1308.hizliresim.com/1d/q/rsxxq.jpg
 

ozi2000

New Member
Turkey's homemade corvette, UAV attract Brazil's attention
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Turkey's homemade corvette, UAV attract Brazil's attention
Brazilian Defense Minister Celso Amorim is currently visiting Turkey. Cooperation in defense is one of the topics on the agenda for the minister’s visit. (Photo: Today's Zaman, Mevlüt Karabulut)
20 August 2013 /AYDIN ALBAYRAK, ANKARA


Turkey's achievements in the defense industry in recent years continue to attract potential new partners such as Brazil, a leading emerging economy.

The potential for cooperation in a good number of projects in the defense industry is expected to be discussed by top-level officials from both sides as Celso Amorim, Brazilian minister of defense, is in Turkey on the occasion of the activation of the office of a military attaché at the Brazilian Embassy in Ankara.

“I think we will discuss seven or eight [projects] and then concentrate on two or three of the projects,” Amorim told Today's Zaman on Monday. Buying arms from one another may also come onto the agenda, but the minister particularly stressed the potential for cooperation in joint projects, but noted that it is not possible at this stage to state which projects the two countries may work on together.

Turkey's homemade corvette with stealth technology and the unmanned aerial vehicle (Anka-Phoenix) together with the attack helicopter Turkey has recently produced with the help of Italian AgustaWestland are some of the leading Turkish weapons Brazil seems to be interested in. “You have a corvette which has very high standards […] very good helicopters. I think the UAV is [also] a possibility,” said the minister of defense of Brazil, a country which has been busy redeveloping its own corvette. “We can learn from each other and improve each other,” added Amorim, a career diplomat who also served for many years as minister of foreign affairs.

For its part, the South American country is ready to cooperate with Turkey in areas in which it is stronger than Turkey, such as light fighter and civilian jets. Brazil has also been developing its own unmanned aerial vehicles with the help of the Israeli Elbit Systems. “Brazil is very good at civilian airplanes,” stated Amorim, who sounded hopeful about cooperation, but also noted that the two countries are at present at the learning stage, trying to get to know each other's capabilities better.

Satellites may also turn out to be a potential field of cooperation between the two countries. Turkey has been making efforts to produce its own satellite, a field where Brazil, having already produced its own satellite some years ago, is stronger than Turkey. “Even satellites. … Maybe we can look at it [for possible cooperation as well],” the minister commented.

Turkey, having assigned a defense attaché to Brazil three years ago, is also eager to improve defense ties with South America's largest economy. In an effort to boost bilateral ties, Turkish Minister of Defense İsmet Yılmaz also paid a visit to Brazil last year.

As part of the strengthening of relations between the two countries, the exchange of cadets and officers may also come onto the agenda. Noting that courses are usually offered in English at academies of most armed forces in the world, Amorim stated, “So, we can receive people from your war colleges, [defense] academies and vice versa.” Amorim was received by President Abdullah Gül on Monday and is also expected, on Wednesday, to meet with Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu, with whom he is known to have very good personal relations.

The Turkish defense industry has been developing by leaps and bounds in recent years. As per data from the Defense and Aerospace Industry Manufacturers Association (SaSad), the total industry turnover, including sale of items produced by the civilian aviation industry, reached $4.4 billion in 2011, while the total exports figure amounted to $1.1 billion in the same year. The defense-only figure, which is stripped of civilian aviation items, stands at $817 million. In 2012, defense industry exports, both civilian and military, rose to $1.262 billion, while the figure was only a little over $600 million in 2007, and $850 million in 2010.

As per the strategic plan of the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) for 2012-16, the industry aims to increase yearly revenue to $8 billion and exports to $2 billion by 2016. Presently ranked 16th in terms of turnover, the industry hopes to place in the top 10 in the world by 2023, the centennial of the foundation of the Turkish Republic. Turkey is also working towards the domestic production of fighter jets, with the first test flight expected to take place in 2023.

Turkey and Brazil Create Groups to Study Defence Development Projects

Following Brazilian minister of Defence Celso Amorim’s visit to Ankara, Brazilian Ministry issued a statement in Portuguese concerning bilateral relations. It is stated that Brazil and Turkey will strengthen bilateral cooperation in defence through the creation of five working groups to study partnerships in the naval, aeronautics, space, command and control and cyber defence fields. Defence cooperation with Turkey is based on the central idea that the two countries -- nations with similar levels of development, with no conflicts of interest and pursuing increasing participation in the international arena -- have much to gain from the development of common projects, both economically and strategically.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Bit late, but next time mate it'd be helpful if you gave some comments about the article too rather than just copy and pasting the article. Even then, copy'n'pasting the whole article isn't great either. Much better to be selective of the key paragraphs and linking the article.

Anyway, WRT attack helos, Russia is about to conclude it's own deliveries of 12 Mi-35M's for use internally but considering the T-129 is still developmental AFAIK so IMO it's not impossible to imagine the discussion being about an indigenous variant manufactured in Brazil .

Still no word on any other updates for the navy, nothing about frigates, carriers or replenishment ships. S.S.D.D, basically. Hopefully there'll be an announcement come 2015 when FX-2 is announced (. . .IF it's announced)

For a country which supposedly is looking to become a global naval power and ranked alongside India/China as riving naval powers, they sure are reluctant to pony up the cash for it.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Rumour coming out about the FX-2, supposedly the Rafale has been rejected from the competition.

'France loses out on Brazil jets deal' - Depeche - France 24

This has been extrapolated from a Brazilian newspaper "Folha de Sao Paulo daily", saying how due to Brazil's economic performance Rousseff doesn't want to commit $4 billion on 36 fighter aircraft during a re-election year while she's under fire for the cost of hosting the Olympics.

Probably ain't true, I mean let's face it we all know how reliable the papers are, then considering Hollande has only just been over there to push the Rafale following frosty US/Br relations.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Brazil's Rousseff - long-awaited fighter jet decision coming Wed | Reuters

Brazilian President to announce the winner of the FX-2 program at 1900 GMT (in ~1 hour) during a press conference, FINALLY.

Rumours circling around that the same media outlet saying that the Rafale has lost the other day has today published that the Gripen will be the winner. (not saying that the newspaper is true)

Interesting times.

It's confirmed, Saab Gripen NG is the winner of Brazil's F-X2 fighter program
 
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Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
RE Post #211 - Turkey's homemade corvette, UAV attract Brazil's attention..


In certain respects, I can understand why Brazil & Turkey would want to 'forge' an allegiance in 'developing technology'.

But why, when they already have a contract with BAE, to build numerous vessels under license, would they need 'develop' an additional capability ??


http://www.baesystems.com/enhancedarticle/BAES_147639/amazonas



..or is this Turkey trying to woo the South Americans ??
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I suppose they're different enough (the Ada or Island class is 19 metres longer, almost 40% heavier, faster, etc. than the Amazonas OPVs, & has a hangar) that it could make sense to buy them for different roles.

BTW, the contract allows Brazil to build more OPVs under licence, but AFAIK Brazil isn't committed to doing so.

The Ada class looks like what Barroso (an attempt to remedy the glaring faults of the Inhauma class corvettes) is supposed to be.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
DCNS have completed a refurb of Sao Paulo's steam catapaults in Rio, Brazil including 2 dry fires.

DCNS completes catapult trials on Brazilian Navy

Over the last 5 years or so, Brazil has been updating it's naval air force. Upgrading its A-4's, buying C-1A's to upgrade them to 'KC-2' to perform COD & AAR duties on the carrier & replacing SH-3's with 6 Seahawks.
 
Interesting that the CEAFAR opportunity could still be bubbling away in Brazil.

Tuesday January 7, 2014 11:43
Radar CEAFAR: a revolutionary proposal Navantia to the Brazilian Navy, based on the Australian program
Radares CEAFAR: una revolucionaria propuesta de Navantia a la Marina de Brasil, basada en el programa australiano
(Defensa.com) The third proposal to the Brazilian Navy Navantia for the retrofit program unit area, PROSUPER, would put the Spanish company, compared to the other options, at the technological forefront.

In principle had been offered to the Brazilian Navy Frigates an option for the F-105 (last number of the recognized Álvaro de Bazán class) with the SPY-1D radar, and also a version of the Norwegian Fridtjof Nansen frigate, lighter and equipped with a smaller, less powerful AEGIS radar family, the SPY-1F. Both ships were configured with antiaircraft missiles Raytheon Standard SM-2 long-range and / or ESSM midrange

Two Brazilian websites, Alide Plan and Brazil, say that the third proposal, completely unknown until now, combines a standard hull of the frigate F-105 with a new modular mast with radar antennas Australian CEAFAR. This naval AESA radar operates in S band and was developed by CEA Technologies, with some involvement of the U.S. Northrop Grumman. According to the documentation of Navantia, maritime patrol aircraft can be identified by the CEAFAR more than 350 miles away from the ship. This model, with a range of less than the alternative AEGIS power, though it would be more capable than any other radar proposed by other participants in the PROSUPER shipyards for their vessels.

With this third option opens door to Navantia for proposing the Aster 15/30 missiles MBDA European corporation, the same model fitted to the two variants of FREMM frigates. The Aster, according to several sources, seem to be the preferred technology in Brazil. In order to successfully integrate this new missile system in the hull of the F-105 to update the path of Aster (uplink) missiles will be controlled and coordinated by a separate radar transmitter module suministradaor MBDA.

As part of the modernization of half-life Anti-Ship Missile Defence (ASMD), settled along the CEAFAR the Enhanced Sea Sparrow on the frigate HMAS Perth, one of the eight ANZAC MEKO class service in that country.Complementary antennas communication system CEAMOUNT U.S. missiles would be unnecessary to select the Aster missile The radar was in evidence until July 2011 and in November of the same year contract for 650 million Australian modernization of other ships of this class dollars was announced.

Aster missiles to shoot the standard F-105 helmet is modified by replacing the vertical launcher of U.S. Mk-41 by Sylver, its European equivalent.Four Sylver A50 launchers can carry and launch up to 32 missiles per ship
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
It's interesting that supposedly Aster is favoured over US missiles, presumably still following the fall out from the same issues that hit F-X2. Not surprised to see CEAFAR mentioned either, it's a capable system.

The way Navantia markets they could well win it, they've been doing well recently.

Cell reduction from 48 to 32 missiles (from the current design to an AdeB-Br is to be expected, if you look at any Sylver VLS setup you can see it to be much less dense than the Mk41 equivalent.
 
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