Ukranian Crisis

[the concerned]

On a lighter note I take it that the an-70 and an-124 production restart are now dead in the water. Also do you think that the EU and Nato have the balls to shut the Turkish waters until Russia at least behaves normal.

 

[wittmanace]

Well being Māori myself, I find the last sentence highly offensive, racist and incorrect. Just go and visit Tuhoe - the Children of the Mist. Why are you concentrating upon the pureness of the race? The terminology you are using reminds me somewhat of the terminology used in the practise of eugenics which is discredited. The map you put up is not a map that shows ethnicity, nor the displacement of the pre-existing population by the newcomers, in this case Russians. This forum is not the place for such intolerant crap.

I don't want to get into race issues, but I did want to ask something regarding terms here. All the time people refer to ethnic Russians (news, politicians on al sides, analysts, etc), are they not just referring to people who would be allowed a Russian passport under Russian law? IE familial links, linguistic or geographic? I had assumed the term ethnicity was a misnomer in this context, and that it was not a race or actual ethnicity issue?

On a separate track, agree with your post re eugenics and useless nature of this faux science. I have seen the "science" and grown up around the areas where the Germans developed their theories, and had their practice runs for the holocaust (if you want to know what the nazis would have done if they hadn't of been caught committing the holocaust, ask me, I'll show you what imperial Germany did when they completed their work in camps the concentration camps were modelled on). Some of these definitions of race, fascination with it, and the fake parameters of race are disturbing.

 

[KiwiRob]

Well being Māori myself, I find the last sentence highly offensive, racist and incorrect. Just go and visit Tuhoe - the Children of the Mist. Why are you concentrating upon the pureness of the race? The terminology you are using reminds me somewhat of the terminology used in the practise of eugenics which is discredited. The map you put up is not a map that shows ethnicity, nor the displacement of the pre-existing population by the newcomers, in this case Russians. This forum is not the place for such intolerant crap.

I'm not bringing up eugenics, you are, but that is what this is partly about, ethnic Russians in Ukraine being crapped on by Ukranians, especially in Crimea. Of course there's all the other political and strategic issues but for the people on the ground it's all about the language you speak.

 

[wittmanace]

I'm not bringing up eugenics, you are, but that is what this is partly about, ethnic Russians in Ukraine being crapped on by Ukranians, especially in Crimea. Of course there's all the other political and strategic issues but for the people on the ground it's all about the language you speak.

If it is about language, do you mean that language is the basis for the "Russian ethnicity", when the term is used in the press and by officials etc? I had assumed it was familial, rather than purely linguistic or anything to do with race or ethnicity. I only ask because I am curious as to who it includes and why? And who determines who is included in it? I am not interested in race, but the term has been used now for events in South Ossetia, Crimea, Moldova, etc, and so to understand the meaning of the term, and why it is used, seems relevant at this point. Is it a way of avoiding saying "historically Russian" as it might suggest Russian beliefs of entitlement re land elsewhere? The number of Russian speakers is rather large, and many who fought against colonialism were educated in the then Soviet Union, so it is very spread. I assume we can agree that it is not about race actually?

 

[John Fedup]

If it is about language, do you mean that language is the basis for the "Russian ethnicity", when the term is used in the press and by officials etc? I had assumed it was familial, rather than purely linguistic or anything to do with race or ethnicity. I only ask because I am curious as to who it includes and why? And who determines who is included in it? I am not interested in race, but the term has been used now for events in South Ossetia, Crimea, Moldova, etc, and so to understand the meaning of the term, and why it is used, seems relevant at this point. Is it a way of avoiding saying "historically Russian" as it might suggest Russian beliefs of entitlement re land elsewhere? The number of Russian speakers is rather large, and many who fought against colonialism were educated in the then Soviet Union, so it is very spread. I assume we can agree that it is not about race actually?

The issues you mention are window dressing. This is simply a land grab the Russians claim is for security but it is a rehearsal for a greater Russia (aka Soviet Union).

 

[wittmanace]

The issues you mention are window dressing. This is simply a land grab the Russians claim is for security but it is a rehearsal for a greater Russia (aka Soviet Union).

As a separate, I guess, issue, why then do western politicians and the western press use the same terms? I do recall even EU officials saying that protection of ethnic Russians is a legitimate concern (in addition to Russian interests)? Really, what I am asking, does not refer to race, or whether it's the real reason, but rather what is is that make a everyone accept this as a term, and what it means? It seems an odd distinction that is thrown around but no one seems to know what it means?

 

[BlueRose]

If it is about language, do you mean that language is the basis for the "Russian ethnicity", when the term is used in the press and by officials etc? I had assumed it was familial, rather than purely linguistic or anything to do with race or ethnicity. I only ask because I am curious as to who it includes and why? And who determines who is included in it? I am not interested in race, but the term has been used now for events in South Ossetia, Crimea, Moldova, etc, and so to understand the meaning of the term, and why it is used, seems relevant at this point. Is it a way of avoiding saying "historically Russian" as it might suggest Russian beliefs of entitlement re land elsewhere? The number of Russian speakers is rather large, and many who fought against colonialism were educated in the then Soviet Union, so it is very spread. I assume we can agree that it is not about race actually?

I think most are confused about the concepts of race. In Russia's case its more about linguistic and cultural similarities, such as Orthodox Christianity. This is why many, including Serbia, call themselves "Slovic". The term Caucasian, for example, is a misnomer that refers to the White Race as a whole; It's actually used to collectivize white phenotypes. Caucasians are mixed, from the Turkish invasions and so are Tatars. They use the term Caucasian, to classify some of mixed heritage with white phenotypes. Russia, obviously appealed to the Tatar population to get 95% of the vote. They've been around long enough, for them to accept them. Stalin did not act based off race, he killed whites, mongoloids and anything in between. Communism caused the Ukrainian Holomodors and the Russian famine of 1921. I think both sides need to downplay the race and ethnicity game. The Ukrainians for instance, blames the Russians for the Holomodor... When this is not the case, they were victimized by the same greedy ideology. The only way to solve a situation like this, is by both sides stop with this false propaganda. Members of "Svoboda" are also hypocrits, considering they fought for Caucasians in Chechnya. All sides are victims..

 

[wittmanace]

I think most are confused about the concepts of race. In Russia's case its more about linguistic and cultural similarities, such as Orthodox Christianity. This is why many, including Serbia, call themselves "Slovic". The term Caucasian, for example, is a misnomer that refers to the White Race as a whole; It's actually used to collectivize white phenotypes. Caucasians are mixed, from the Turkish invasions and so are Tatars. They use the term Caucasian, to classify some of mixed heritage with white phenotypes. Russia, obviously appealed to the Tatar population to get 95% of the vote. They've been around long enough, for them to accept them. Stalin did not act based off race, he killed whites, mongoloids and anything in between. Communism caused the Ukrainian Holomodors and the Russian famine of 1921. I think both sides need to downplay the race and ethnicity game. The Ukrainians for instance, blames the Russians for the Holomodor... When this is not the case, they were victimized by the same greedy ideology. The only way to solve a situation like this, is by both sides stop with this false propaganda. Members of "Svoboda" are also hypocrits, considering they fought for Caucasians in Chechnya. All sides are victims..

Frankly I think we can drop the ethnicity term and put things in terms of pro Russian or pro kievan then. It is tiring when things are framed as race issues, when they aren't.

What is the basis for people saying substantial parts of the Ukrainian army would be pro Russian? Has there been any evidence of this outside the Crimean region?

 

[John Fedup]

Frankly I think we can drop the ethnicity term and put things in terms of pro Russian or pro kievan then. It is tiring when things are framed as race issues, when they aren't.

What is the basis for people saying substantial parts of the Ukrainian army would be pro Russian? Has there been any evidence of this outside the Crimean region?

This discussion of what ethnicity is or isn't frankly boggles my mind and I am not sure if it is off topic or not but I am leaning towards yes it is. I don't think it is a race issue. The Nazis invasion of Poland was branded as German protection of ethnicity but the Nazis privately knew it was land grab and the start of their final solution (a race solution) whereas Stalin saw this as a land grab and a false notion of a buffer zone against Nazi aggression. Putin wants the Crimea for security reasons only, I don't believe he is concerned about ethnicity which has little to do with race these days. Let's be honest, ethnicity is more about culture and frigging religion than race. Are wars mostly fought because of ideology, treasure, self-defence, cultural differences, or race? Like one of history's greatest empires, Rome, race didn't seem to be all that important.

 

[Twain]

The issues you mention are window dressing. This is simply a land grab the Russians claim is for security but it is a rehearsal for a greater Russia (aka Soviet Union).

I agree it is a just land grab but it is a bit more, Putin got embarrassed when his proxy Yanukovich had to flee the country.

Putin in particular and a lot of russians in general want their empire back. Putin temporarily outmaneuvered the EU with his offer of guaranteed loans to join the russian economic union but from what I understand, a large percentage of Ukranians want to move west and definitely away from the rampant kleptocracy that has been governing in the Ukraine for years. (I'm referring to both sides here not just Yanukovich) The EU ecomonic pact provides a way to do that over the long term due to EU rules, a pact with Russia just ensures that the kleptocracy continues.

Russia will probably get to keep crimea but the costs will be staggering.



The first reaction to the first round of U.S. and European sanctions against the Russian ruling elite was laughter. Declared one of those singled out: Whoever put these sanctions together is a “joker.” Indeed, the first set of U.S. sanctions was weak and the European sanctions weaker. This is no longer the case. The Western sanctions bite where they hurt. Moreover, the U.S. Treasury has sent Vladimir Putin a chilling warning: We know where your money is, and we can expose you for what you are.” The Treasury hinted at a “direct (financial) relationship” between Putin and owner of a shadowy oil trading company chartered in Switzerland, who happens to be on the sanctions list.

One of Russia’s most trusted financial experts, former finance minister Alexei Kudrin, estimates that Putin’s Ukrainian adventure will cost Russia $200 billion. If adjusted for the smaller size of the Russian economy, this figure would be the equivalent of a $2 trillion loss to the U.S. economy, more than the entire cost of the Great Recession.

New Sanctions No Joke: Putin Risks Regime For Ukraine Invasion (Treasury Issues A Direct Threat To Putin) See Updates - Forbes

 

[gf0012-aust]

Lets get off the race discussion as it will lead to greater misunderstanding and friction - not less

 

[wittmanace]

Lets get off the race discussion as it will lead to greater misunderstanding and friction - not less

Does anyone have any news of which Russian units are in Crimea now, and if they have left the original Russian bases? I assume the Russian army will be equipping the new Crimean units, and berkut will operate as berkut in Crimea or are they to be absorbed into new units?

 

[SolarWind]

If it is about language, do you mean that language is the basis for the "Russian ethnicity", when the term is used in the press and by officials etc? I had assumed it was familial, rather than purely linguistic or anything to do with race or ethnicity. I only ask because I am curious as to who it includes and why? And who determines who is included in it? I am not interested in race, but the term has been used now for events in South Ossetia, Crimea, Moldova, etc, and so to understand the meaning of the term, and why it is used, seems relevant at this point. Is it a way of avoiding saying "historically Russian" as it might suggest Russian beliefs of entitlement re land elsewhere? The number of Russian speakers is rather large, and many who fought against colonialism were educated in the then Soviet Union, so it is very spread. I assume we can agree that it is not about race actually?

Russian media and politicians may seem to use terms [Russian] "compatriots" and [ethnic] "Russians" interchangeably. But in my limited understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, these terms have slightly different meaning. Russian compatriot is someone who lived in the Soviet Union and who's primary language is Russian, or their descendants. Whereas ethnic Russians are usually those who are of Russian ethnicity/nationality by blood/birth, whose primary language is Russian, and whose primary religion is Russian Orthodox. Sometimes the definition may vary depending on context (for example, Russian cossacks have been considered ethnic Russians, but consider themselves of Cossack nationality/ethnicity, speak primarily Russian and are Russian Orthodox Christians).
So according to this definition, "Russian speakers in Ukraine" would include both [Russian] "compatriots" and [ethnic] "Russians".

 

[SolarWind]

This discussion of what ethnicity is or isn't frankly boggles my mind and I am not sure if it is off topic or not but I am leaning towards yes it is. I don't think it is a race issue. The Nazis invasion of Poland was branded as German protection of ethnicity but the Nazis privately knew it was land grab and the start of their final solution (a race solution) whereas Stalin saw this as a land grab and a false notion of a buffer zone against Nazi aggression. Putin wants the Crimea for security reasons only, I don't believe he is concerned about ethnicity which has little to do with race these days. Let's be honest, ethnicity is more about culture and frigging religion than race. Are wars mostly fought because of ideology, treasure, self-defence, cultural differences, or race? Like one of history's greatest empires, Rome, race didn't seem to be all that important.

I don't want to speculate on what Putin wants and why. But supporting ethnic Russians or Russian compatriots who may at least appear to be poorly mistreated in other countries, may raise Putin's home approval ratings as this is something that Russians actually may care about.

 

[Feanor]

Feanor, wrt the Ukrainian Constitution, what was Crimea's actual status in Ukraine before this ahem situation. Btw guys from a purely economic point of view, Russia may find it has acquired a money pit. Crimea's finances were subsidised upto 50%+ by Ukraine proper, it's GDP was lower than the rest of Ukraine (on par with Palestinian territories), the pension in Russia I think is well over twice what the Ukrainian state/funds pay & a whole lot more. I get article links from both ICAEW & ACCA + in our networks this morning many fellow members (above 2 bodies) were discussing this whole thing wrt the financial side. I'll put in more when I get more thanks.

You're spot on. I've already covered this, I think, but one of the reasons why so many in Ukraine are pro-Russian is because Russia has a lot of federal funds, and puts a lot of those funds into peoples pockets. Ukraine is poor. Not only Crimea, but Lugansk (an extremely pro-Russian region in Eastern Ukraine), and quite a bit of other regions in the east and south are subsidized. I posted the map earlier in this thread, with breakdown by budget.

On a lighter note I take it that the an-70 and an-124 production restart are now dead in the water. Also do you think that the EU and Nato have the balls to shut the Turkish waters until Russia at least behaves normal.

The An-70 is, but the An-124 can proceed just fine without Ukraine. In fact Putin signed an executive order instructing Russian companies to disregard Ukrainian intellectual property rights with regard to the An-124.

 

[Feanor]

Ukrainian Navy ships in Crimea were seized by unknown masked men who look like Crimean Militias. They were armed with fire arms.

bmpd -

Also photos from the fall of the Ukrainian Naval HQ.

Taking Over Sevastopol Ukrainian Fleet Headquarters | English Russia

Another Ukrainian Naval base has been emptied. The personnel were given a chance to serve in the Russian Armed Forces, but all declined, and left the base.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Ð¡Ð¸Ñ‚ÑƒÐ°Ñ†Ð¸Ñ Ð² Крыму. ФлотÑкие дела

So far over 3.5 thousand Ukrainian service members from Crimea have joined the Russian Armed Forces at a special location set up for this purpose. Another 1000 have elected to leave Crimea, after registering with local authorities, and continue serving in the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Ð¡Ð¸Ñ‚ÑƒÐ°Ñ†Ð¸Ñ Ð² Крыму. ÐŸÑ€ÐµÐ´Ð»Ð¾Ð¶ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ñлуживым

Photos from the surrender of some of the other Ukrainian Navy ships in Sevastopol.

http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1494468.html

Meanwhile photos of the new National Guard in Ukraine. They don't even all have uniforms...

Meanwhile a Mobilization Taking Place in Ukraine | English Russia

Svoboda activists violently attacked a TV host, and a high level executive of a TV company in Ukraine.

http://newsru.com/russia/20mar2014/svoboda.html

Also, even though Crimea is a part of Russia, they will be exempt from the spring draft. They will participate in the fall draft.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Â Êðûìó ïîñëå çàÿâëåíèé ïðåìüåðà î ñëóæáå íà Ñåâåðíîì Êàâêàçå îòìåíèëè âåñåííèé ïðèçûâ â àðìèþ

Russia has decided for now, not to institute a visa regime for Ukrainians.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com ::  îòâåò íà ââåäåíèå Óêðàèíîé âèçîâîãî ðåæèìà Ðîññèÿ ïîêà íå íàìåðåíà îòâå÷àòü çåðêàëüíî

 

[ngatimozart]

I'm not bringing up eugenics, you are, but that is what this is partly about, ethnic Russians in Ukraine being crapped on by Ukranians, especially in Crimea. Of course there's all the other political and strategic issues but for the people on the ground it's all about the language you speak.

That's not the point. The point is the insult to Māoridom and myself in particular by the lie you posted about us. An apology in the first instance is required. This is not something lightly shrugged off. I've noted gf0012s post about the race posts but this is about an insult, mana and honour.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Sort ot the issue via PM's please folks.

Keep it out of here as we don't want it to continue on in any form or fashion

 

[wittmanace]

Good roundup as always Feanor. Has any more info regarding the shooting incident come out since yesterday?

 

[KiwiRob]

Lets get off the race discussion as it will lead to greater misunderstanding and friction - not less

It's not really a race discussion, more a language issue and the use of it.