Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
When you are left to clear up the dregs of the previous incompetent govt., you work with what you have got.
Politics aside PBs, especially ones built to commercial standards and attempted to be maintained under a commercial arrangement, are not fit for purpose. Leave the PBs to customs, fisheries whoever (probably the super department of Immigration and Most Excellent Border & Sovereignty Protection) and provide the RAN with warships.
 

Bluey 006

Active Member
Politics aside PBs, especially ones built to commercial standards and attempted to be maintained under a commercial arrangement, are not fit for purpose. Leave the PBs to customs, fisheries whoever (probably the super department of Immigration and Most Excellent Border & Sovereignty Protection) and provide the RAN with warships.
Hopefully, local manufacturers see the opportunity and seek to exploit the successive government’s fixation on illegal immigration via the sea, and promote high end dual purpose assets that enhance both existing war fighting capabilities, and border/immigration control.

Offshore Combatant Vessels, Unmanned air systems, Maritime patrol aircraft and the like.

A multi-mission and helicopter equipped OCV would increase the RAN capability leaps and bounds. It would also ultimately have cost saving benefits, as we wouldn't have to use frigates (that cost over $200,000-a-day to operate) for border protection and immigration control.

The patrol boats are not designed for this task, and to state they are unsuitable for it is an understatement. Yet a frigate is overkill.

The problem and thus need is identified, the benefits are obvious and the opportunity for “add on” mission modules (ASW, ASuW etc) gives the manufacturers profit opportunities (making it viable). The potential for "mission module" value ads gives the RAN additional options in future warlike scenarios, but a baseline OCV (yet easily upgradable) solves an immediate problem at reasonable cost.

If we back away from the OCV concept, local manufacturer’s marketing/lobby/business development (and design) teams would have a lot to answer for.

I don't think all the blame should fall on the government, Defence doesn't buy a lot of votes in Australia, so it is up to Defence industry to present them viable,affordable and flexible options/solutions that lead them down a path to the decisions that are in their own best interests, and really the only sensible choice.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hopefully, local manufacturers see the opportunity and seek to exploit the successive government’s fixation on illegal immigration via the sea, and promote high end dual purpose assets that enhance both existing war fighting capabilities, and border/immigration control.

Offshore Combatant Vessels, Unmanned air systems, Maritime patrol aircraft and the like.

A multi-mission and helicopter equipped OCV would increase the RAN capability leaps and bounds. It would also ultimately have cost saving benefits, as we wouldn't have to use frigates (that cost over $200,000-a-day to operate) for border protection and immigration control.

The patrol boats are not designed for this task, and to state they are unsuitable for it is an understatement. Yet a frigate is overkill.

The problem and thus need is identified, the benefits are obvious and the opportunity for “add on” mission modules (ASW, ASuW etc) gives the manufacturers profit opportunities (making it viable). The potential for "mission module" value ads gives the RAN additional options in future warlike scenarios, but a baseline OCV (yet easily upgradable) solves an immediate problem at reasonable cost.

If we back away from the OCV concept, local manufacturer’s marketing/lobby/business development (and design) teams would have a lot to answer for.

I don't think all the blame should fall on the government, Defence doesn't buy a lot of votes in Australia, so it is up to Defence industry to present them viable,affordable and flexible options/solutions that lead them down a path to the decisions that are in their own best interests, and really the only sensible choice.
Hello Bluey, welcome.

I think if we see anything larger and more capable, rather than being something that provides real capability and durability to the RAN minor warfare groups, certainty to the major builders and a decent return of the tax payers investment into shipbuilding in this country, it will likely be another aluminium Austal product bought to prop up a private company.
 

Bluey 006

Active Member
Hello Bluey, welcome.

I think if we see anything larger and more capable, rather than being something that provides real capability and durability to the RAN minor warfare groups, certainty to the major builders and a decent return of the tax payers investment into shipbuilding in this country, it will likely be another aluminium Austal product bought to prop up a private company.
I tend to agree, but how will they fair in the chilly southern ocean or in combat ( battle damage) scenario? Or how does that impact the approaching "valley of death" that is looming for Australian shipbuilding in SA,VICTORIA etc?
 
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Bluey 006

Active Member
I tend to agree, but how will that that fair in the chilly southern ocean or in combat ( battle damage) scenario? Or how does that impact the approaching "valley of death" that is looming for Australian shipbuilding in SA,VICTORIA etc?
Any chance the other major local shipbuilders will present a similar concept with a steel hull?
 

Bluey 006

Active Member
Hello Bluey, welcome.

I think if we see anything larger and more capable, rather than being something that provides real capability and durability to the RAN minor warfare groups, certainty to the major builders and a decent return of the tax payers investment into shipbuilding in this country, it will likely be another aluminium Austal product bought to prop up a private company.
Another point I forgot to mention.... at the political level an accelerated multi-mission module OCV program is ideal for the Abbot government. It gives them the opportunity to say "we recognized the hoards of illegal boat people breaching our borders as a problem, and gave the Navy the tools it needs to deal with it (unlike the previous government)" ..... " we are strong on border protection".... in the short term.

Yet by delaying the in depth development,construction and integration of the high-end mission modules (that will inevitably be required in the future) they mitigate the immediate cost. Spreading the cost of over a longer period means that it will (potentially) fall on a different government to bare.

This may not necessarily be in the national interest, but politics is politics.

With the Armidales already starting to crack up (literally) might not be a silly decision to start work on their replacements, and get some political points in the process...just saying.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Would love to see it happen but doubt it will. I am becoming a bit jaded and pessimistic in my middle age but tend to think the worst of politicians of all shades. There are still a stack of Boomers in parliament but also an ever increasing number of my generation and those who were involved in politics at school and uni aren't worth p*****g on.
 

weegee

Active Member
Nuship Canberra

Hey guys thought i would just mention that I was down in Melbourne for business this week (not exciting at all), but on Wednesday afternoon I found I had a few hours up my sleeve and so I decided to take the hire car for a drive to Williamstown and have a looksie at LHD Canberra.

Well holy crap! she is one big girl huh????? the closest I could get to her with a decent view was from the pier where EX HMAS Castlemaine is tied up to. But even from a distance of say 800m she is one large lass!
It is going to be one hell of a sight seeing 2 Canberra's plus HMAS Choules tied up in Sydney eventually won't it?
 

Hoffy

Member
Hey guys thought i would just mention that I was down in Melbourne for business this week (not exciting at all), but on Wednesday afternoon I found I had a few hours up my sleeve and so I decided to take the hire car for a drive to Williamstown and have a looksie at LHD Canberra.

Well holy crap! she is one big girl huh????? the closest I could get to her with a decent view was from the pier where EX HMAS Castlemaine is tied up to. But even from a distance of say 800m she is one large lass!
It is going to be one hell of a sight seeing 2 Canberra's plus HMAS Choules tied up in Sydney eventually won't it?
I don't suppose you took any photos of the ship?

Would love to see how things are progressing so far - there isn't too much in the way of new images at the moment , BTW the 2nd hull is well into Aussie waters now..
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I was recently looking through some of my books on naval vessels and came across some photos of the WWII Flower-class museum ship HMCS Sackville. That got me thinking (yes, a dangerous proposition...) about what sort of sized vessels would be useful around Australia, should regional tensions increase.

It is clear to me at least, that the Bay, Armidale and Cape-class patrol boats are not really suited for sustained open-ocean operations, especially when there is the potential need during the mission to rescue and/or detain large numbers of people safely. Also, given the size, structure and displacement, there is minimal ability to make the patrol boats into effective combatants against anything other than smallcraft.

Having seen the photos of HMCS Sackville and the role played by the various corvette classes as convoy escorts and ASW pickets, I began to think again about how effective some OCV-type vessels could be in RAN service. It would seem that a class of vessel of approximately the same size and displacement as a WWII era River-class frigate but with modern machinery, weapons and sensor/combat systems. Or alternatively, a modern version of the smaller Bathurst-class corvette.

Given the potential for increased tension within the greater region, the increased industrialization of Australia compared to back in WWII, and the 'valley of death' in terms of shipbuilding, would Australia be able to bring such a type of vessel into service quickly, if needed? AFAIK the current timeframe for Australian defence programmes is about 14 years between initial concept and reaching IOC.

Also if the projection on increased regional tensions is accurate, what sorts of capabilities would be most relevant to RAN vessels to maintain the SLOC.

-Cheers
 

chargerRT

New Member
Hi all. Im wondering how well our Chinook fleet will stand up to a month long deployment on an LHD. are they 'marinized' , or can they be? I can see them being used in humanitarian relief missions (cyclones etc), not to mention their military utility. what would a marine environment do to an airframe if it wasn't protected in some way? I have a 69 Valiant, so im familiar with corrosion!
I follow this thread daily, but don't recall seeing anything about this. apols in advance if I missed it.

cheers
kris
 

Trackmaster

Member
Yep, (Marinetraffic an hour ago) she was just abeam Windy Harbour a few hours west of Albany doing 9.7kts
Chris
With Blue Marlin on the home run, I was wondering what is happening with the initial trials of Canberra.

Has she left the wharf yet under her own power? I seem to recall that the "in the bay" trials were originally scheduled for December.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hi all. Im wondering how well our Chinook fleet will stand up to a month long deployment on an LHD. are they 'marinized' , or can they be? I can see them being used in humanitarian relief missions (cyclones etc), not to mention their military utility. what would a marine environment do to an airframe if it wasn't protected in some way? I have a 69 Valiant, so im familiar with corrosion!
I follow this thread daily, but don't recall seeing anything about this. apols in advance if I missed it.

cheers
kris
you could deploy chooks "as is" for short term scenarios - but the hardening up for marine ops is about sustained ops in that environment.

"one offs" are fine
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The soon to be CH-47Fs are far more marinised than the current -Ds, so there shouldn't really be any problems considering the few times we will ever embark chooks on the LHDs.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
you have to wonder, with the 30 year plus lives of the LHDs and the likelihood that we will attempt to retain such a useful capability for a new generation 2050 onwards, if it would be worth Army Aviation and the ARA as a whole slowly transitioning to compatible USMC structures and equipment. Tiger replaced with the eventual AH-1W replacement, MHR-90 with the UH-1Y and or MV-22 replacement and Chinook with whatever replaces the CH-53K.
 
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