Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

Klaus

New Member
AIR International reports that the VMF is planning to replace its Su-25 trainers in the near future. Reportedly the preferred replacement are new-built Su-25s which will be similar to the old UTG-version, but are planned to feature several new systems (unfortunately none of them is mentioned in the text).
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
AIR International reports that the VMF is planning to replace its Su-25 trainers in the near future. Reportedly the preferred replacement are new-built Su-25s which will be similar to the old UTG-version, but are planned to feature several new systems (unfortunately none of them is mentioned in the text).
I wonder if they will be trainers or combat-trainers. If the latter, they would add significant CAS capability to the Kuznetsov for the first time.
 

Klaus

New Member
Unfortunately the article is very short and doesn't give much information. As the MiG-29KUB can already be used as a combat trainer, it's possible that the new Su-25s won't be armed, although I would consider this option not very clever as even the smaller and lighter Yak-130 is armed.
Are the remaining Su-25UTGs actually deployed on the Kusnetsov or are they assigned to a land-based unit?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Unfortunately the article is very short and doesn't give much information. As the MiG-29KUB can already be used as a combat trainer, it's possible that the new Su-25s won't be armed, although I would consider this option not very clever as even the smaller and lighter Yak-130 is armed.
Are the remaining Su-25UTGs actually deployed on the Kusnetsov or are they assigned to a land-based unit?
All AVMF assets have land bases, and rotate in and out on ships.

EDIT: Some info on the project 949AM. It's an upgrade for the Cold War era 949As that turns them into multi-purpose missile carriers. They will carry Kalibr and Oniks missiles (quite likely Kalibr, given that the VMF has been sticking them onto everything including the smallish corvettes class Buyan-M). This will keep the 949s in service alongside the 885s for quite some time.

http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-769.html
 
Last edited:

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
All AVMF assets have land bases, and rotate in and out on ships.

EDIT: Some info on the project 949AM. It's an upgrade for the Cold War era 949As that turns them into multi-purpose missile carriers. They will carry Kalibr and Oniks missiles (quite likely Kalibr, given that the VMF has been sticking them onto everything including the smallish corvettes class Buyan-M). This will keep the 949s in service alongside the 885s for quite some time.

http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-769.html
There were also plans to continue with the construction of some unfinished Project 949A hulls. But there are different reports about that, some sources say it will become a special purpose submarine.
Any news about that?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Out of curiosity, what would ASW destroyers do with attack helicopters? I could imagine it being useful in some of the counter-piracy patrols, but not elsewhere.
The AShM speculation is probably reality. It looks like not only can it carry two X-35s, it might be able to carry 4 of them with minimal modification. There's some nice info here, but it's in Russian, so I don't know how much good it does you. The general info is that while 4 of them are slightly over the weight limit of the pylons currently used, it's a very small over-limit that can be avoided by strengthening the pylons.

Флот открытого океана: Ð¢Ñ€ÐµÑ‚ÑŒÑ Ð¿Ð¾Ð¿Ñ‹Ñ‚ÐºÐ° - Ка-52К Ð´Ð»Ñ "МиÑтралей" и не только. ЧаÑÑ‚ÑŒ 5: "ГарпунÑкий" - â„–1 в мире Ñреди вертолётных ПКÐ*
Флот открытого океана: Ð¢Ñ€ÐµÑ‚ÑŒÑ Ð¿Ð¾Ð¿Ñ‹Ñ‚ÐºÐ° - Ка-52К Ð´Ð»Ñ "МиÑтралей" и не только. ЧаÑÑ‚ÑŒ 6: Боливар выдержит двоих. Рчетверых?

Meanwhile project 20380 number 4 (Stoykiy) is headed out to sea. Next year it will begin factory, then state trials, preceding handover.

ВМФ Ð*оÑÑии: новейший корвет «Стойкий» готовитÑÑ Ð²Ñ‹Ð¹Ñ‚Ð¸ в море*—*ОÐ*УЖИЕ Ð*ОССИИ, Информационное агентÑтво

Also it looks like the An-12PS search and rescue planes will remain in AVMF operations for longer. Instead of being retired and replaced, they're being overhauled and upgraded to remain in service. Allegedly attempts to find a suitable replacement have failed. I'm not sure what this means for the Be-200 buy which has already occured, and some of the planes are bought for search and rescue purposes.

http://military-informant.com/index.php/airforce/2587-an-12ps.html
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
"The refit will build on the shipyard's success of overhauling the Kiev-class aircraft carrier Baku, re-commissioned for India as the Vikramaditya in November."


I just spat coffee all over my monitor when I read that.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Wasn't this overhaul the head turner because this slot came down to a choice of overhauling Admiral Kuznetsov or this nuclear cruiser and they picked the cruiser?

Always liked Kuznetsov, seemed like an interesting way to go about carrier air.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
As far as I can tell, there is no project for upgrading the Kuznetsov. Simply repairing/overhauling these ships isn't enough. The on-board equipment is outdated, right down to the weapon systems. If the dock in question is the same as the one used for the Gorshkov, then this would probably mean that they had to choose one or the other. News of a project for upgrading the Nakhimov has been floating around consistently. On the Kuznetsov there were some rumors and non-specific info that did not come to much.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The refit will build on the shipyard's success of overhauling the Kiev-class aircraft carrier Baku, re-commissioned for India as the Vikramaditya in November.
That word does not mean what they think it means...

Catastrofu#@ would be a better way to describe the Vikramaditya program.

"The refit will build on the shipyard's success of overhauling the Kiev-class aircraft carrier Baku, re-commissioned for India as the Vikramaditya in November."


I just spat coffee all over my monitor when I read that.
I've been giggling all day after reading that.

Wasn't this overhaul the head turner because this slot came down to a choice of overhauling Admiral Kuznetsov or this nuclear cruiser and they picked the cruiser?

Always liked Kuznetsov, seemed like an interesting way to go about carrier air.
It makes no sense. The Kirov's don't really bring anything to the table other than showing the flag (along with a few ocean going tugs wherever they go). They've long been obsolete.
A refit of the Kuznetsov makes a lot more sense... That said... Russia.
 

Akula540

New Member
It makes no sense. The Kirov's don't really bring anything to the table other than showing the flag (along with a few ocean going tugs wherever they go). They've long been obsolete.
A refit of the Kuznetsov makes a lot more sense... That said... Russia.
Would it happen to be possible to put some meat around those flamebaits?
 

kev 99

Member
"The refit will build on the shipyard's success of overhauling the Kiev-class aircraft carrier Baku, re-commissioned for India as the Vikramaditya in November."


I just spat coffee all over my monitor when I read that.
I posted something similar on Key forums when I saw it.

As for the Kirov's being "modernised" I don't really see what the point is, the purpose they used to fulfil could be done with more modern/smaller/cheaper escorts and yet the Russians want to put a 28,000 tonne, 250m long nuclear powered cruiser with700 crew back into service. The Kirov's were the size they were because of the p-700 Granit missile they carried, take those away and there is no real need for the size. Sooner or later the Russian navy is going to need some new ships bigger than a Frigate or Corvette, this plan will cost a fortune and suck much needed funds away from new ship construction.

IMHO The Russian navy would be more sensible modernising instead of trying to rebuild a mini late era Soviet navy.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I agree IMO - , I would have thought the Russians would have been keen to purge a lot of the old soviet stuff now. Build up a much smaller but more modern force. Something more French or British sized and balance.

The only ship I could see that would still be very useful is the Kuznetsov (after refit) with possible deals with India and China with aircraft and other carrier systems of great interest. Even by her self, being a carrier would still give Russia a leg up over lesser powers.

Building smaller possibly available for export size with BrahMos and S400 systems in a more useful size and affordable operating costs. Cruisers is something the US isn't really into at the moment right now, refitting the old soviet girls to counter no real opposition. Seems like not the right place to throw money at right now.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Would it happen to be possible to put some meat around those flamebaits?
No-one's spelled it out since I guess to a lot of us it was internally transparent - but basically, the cruisers have all been laid up in what could well be a relatively poor state of preservation since the late 80's. They're nuclear powered, and their shore side facilities could not (apparently) provide enough power to keep the reactors reliably cooled while sitting idle so they were all shut down and require major overhauls. Presumably all their steam turbines and associated gear have been sitting doing nothing *either* and are similarly shagged.

Add to which the issues that the only yards big enough to refit them properly don't have the refuelling facilities, which means a bit of a shuffle around in mid refit. Logistically, it's a nightmare.

All of their combat systems are circa 1980's - everything - comms, missiles, counter measures, the lot. Effectively you've got a 22Kt hull in poor preservation which needs to be gutted and refitted from stem to stern. Quicker to scrap it, melt it down and build a new one.

Cheaper to take it on the chin, build a modern GT powered class of five or six modern surface combatants from scratch..it'd give useful design experience instead of throwing the money at the refit yards and you'd have a bunch of brand new hulls in the water built to much better modern habitability standards, without the burden of needing nuclear support personnel.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Would it happen to be possible to put some meat around those flamebaits?
Nothing I said was flamebaiting.

Over the last decade or so whenever a Russian group deploys out side of home waters for whatever reason an ocean going tug or two goes with them. It is an ongoing joke in naval circles.

The Kirovs ARE obsolete, they haven't been cared for with one of the most complex engineering plants afloat. Then you have the rumors that the ship is a nightmare electronics wise because of mutual interference.

What mission would a refitted Kirov fill that can't be handled by a modern destroyer at a fraction of the operating cost?
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Cheaper to take it on the chin, build a modern GT powered class of five or six modern surface combatants from scratch..it'd give useful design experience instead of throwing the money at the refit yards and you'd have a bunch of brand new hulls in the water built to much better modern habitability standards, without the burden of needing nuclear support personnel.
We have two examples of large Soviet era warships being refitted for modern use. Neither was done in what could be considered a cost effective or timely manner. Neither of those ships had nuclear reactors that further complicates things.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
There's an alarm bell ringing as to why the Kirov's plants were so complicated - throw me a bone here and remind me? I know they're third generation nuclear reactors, similar to those used in the ice breakers - but what was the other catch?

<curse my brain>

Ah..sorry - CONAS - with a steam turbine boost, can't get over 20 knots on nuclear alone. Fabulous..with a 1,000 mile range on full chat. That's messy..
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Ah..sorry - CONAS - with a steam turbine boost, can't get over 20 knots on nuclear alone. Fabulous..with a 1,000 mile range on full chat. That's messy..
Yep, again upgrading these ships make no sense. The upkeep on those engineering plants would horrify any other navy.
Friedmans US Destroyers talks about this in his nuclear destroyer chapter. The US toyed with the idea of hybrid nuke plants for normal steaming and hotel loads and either additional steam or gas turbine plants for when higher speed is needed. Both have severe issues that caused it to only be adopted on the Kirovs. The steam plant is too slow to get up to operating temps to be useful in emergency situations, but it doesn't require much more piping than the nuke plant already uses. A gas turbine setup would be more useful but requires main reduction gears.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Sooner or later the Russian navy is going to need some new ships bigger than a Frigate or Corvette, this plan will cost a fortune and suck much needed funds away from new ship construction.
I think the first Project 21956 destroyer will start construction this year. The plan is for 16-20 of them.
 
Top