US Navy News and updates

colay

New Member
More on LCS... U.S.S. Freedom is back at Pearl after her Western Pacific deployment and the Navy is no doubt in the process of gleaning initial lessons learned, particularly in the area of crew sizing. Overall, the brass has deemed it to have had a "very successful" deployment. A lot more steps in the LCS journey forthcoming, with special interest in the continuing development and fielding of the Mission Modules.

NavWeek: Knifefighter
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Overall, the brass has deemed it to have had a "very successful" deployment.0
I'm pretty sure that the only way they WOULDN'T have said it was a "very successful" deployment is if it had exploded and sunk next to the pier. As best I could see, the only requirement of the deployment was that FRE be deployed somewhere and not sink. So yes, "very successful".

The trick to meeting expectations is often to set the expectations low enough.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Expectations for first of classes usually are low. I remember the horrible first deployment of the San Antonio...
 

colay

New Member
I'm pretty sure that the only way they WOULDN'T have said it was a "very successful" deployment is if it had exploded and sunk next to the pier. As best I could see, the only requirement of the deployment was that FRE be deployed somewhere and not sink. So yes, "very successful".

The trick to meeting expectations is often to set the expectations low enough.
She actually did more than "not sink"...
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
She actually did more than "not sink"...
According to Bob Work, distant deployment and periodic crew changes will be the ongoing CONOPS for these ships. Whilst deployed they will undertake the myriad of tasks undertaken by small combatants throughout the world of modern navies short of outright warfighting.
Problem is, the USN has no small combatants and wastes valuable blue water resources despatching them in time expensive tasks such as pirate patrols and small exercises with other smaller allies.
We all have to remember that the USN has been out of the small ship game for many years so this has been a re-education
USS Freedom's deployment showed that the LCS can undertake trans-oceanic, independent deployments and remain deployed for some time whilst co-operating with allies and cycle crew changes.
Despite a few hiccups, this was achieved so yes, successful, perfect no.

Small crews teach people to be far more resourceful and independent as well as multi skilled, particularly machinery maintainers so I'm sure that over time the LCS crews will become very good at keeping those ships going with minimum outside help.
Cheers
Chris
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
According to Bob Work, distant deployment and periodic crew changes will be the ongoing CONOPS for these ships. Whilst deployed they will undertake the myriad of tasks undertaken by small combatants throughout the world of modern navies short of outright warfighting.
Problem is, the USN has no small combatants and wastes valuable blue water resources despatching them in time expensive tasks such as pirate patrols and small exercises with other smaller allies.
We all have to remember that the USN has been out of the small ship game for many years so this has been a re-education
USS Freedom's deployment showed that the LCS can undertake trans-oceanic, independent deployments and remain deployed for some time whilst co-operating with allies and cycle crew changes.
Despite a few hiccups, this was achieved so yes, successful, perfect no.

Small crews teach people to be far more resourceful and independent as well as multi skilled, particularly machinery maintainers so I'm sure that over time the LCS crews will become very good at keeping those ships going with minimum outside help.
Cheers
Chris
I would not be in the slightest surprised if the USN finds in years to come that many of the best and brightest commanders and senior sailors filter through the LSC fleet. Little teaches people quicker than having no one else to do it for you.
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
According to Bob Work, distant deployment and periodic crew changes will be the ongoing CONOPS for these ships. Whilst deployed they will undertake the myriad of tasks undertaken by small combatants throughout the world of modern navies short of outright warfighting.
Problem is, the USN has no small combatants and wastes valuable blue water resources despatching them in time expensive tasks such as pirate patrols and small exercises with other smaller allies.
We all have to remember that the USN has been out of the small ship game for many years so this has been a re-education
USS Freedom's deployment showed that the LCS can undertake trans-oceanic, independent deployments and remain deployed for some time whilst co-operating with allies and cycle crew changes.
Despite a few hiccups, this was achieved so yes, successful, perfect no.

Small crews teach people to be far more resourceful and independent as well as multi skilled, particularly machinery maintainers so I'm sure that over time the LCS crews will become very good at keeping those ships going with minimum outside help.
Cheers
Chris
True, but I think Blackshoe was really speaking to Navy PAO SOP...which is that everything the USN does is awesome, all the time.

What would make it substantive is the data on MTBF/MTTR, Operational Availability and Reliability...but that's not the stuff that'll make it to a feel good press piece or press briefing talking points.

One of the things the critics have been using to snipe at the program's maintenance arrangement is that yes...FRE demonstrated that it can operate overseas...but was it cost efficient when you consider the increased cost of overseas maintenance contracting, flying out support, etc. As it matures, I'm fairly confident they'll find that it is cheaper all things considered, but that's yet to really be proven.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The LCS's maintenance system will make more sense when there is more than a handful and you have enough deployed in an area to have a permanent or semi-permanent maintenance detachment in Singapore or wherever the USN decides to perform deployment maintenance and not flying contractors to and from the US every few weeks.

The maintenance philosophy for LCS was born out of a long dead USN experiment to transfer most of a regular ships PMS to a shore based establishment run by either sailors on shore duty or by contractors. My first DDG took part in this experiment and the briefing I went to stressed reducing the number of technicians for certain workcenters and saving money on not having to pay for the various schools, BAH, pay and other benefits. The ship would turn over a large chunk of the PMS deck to the shore det and every day in port sailors or contractors would come on and do PMS that was centrally scheduled from the detachment. The pilot program didn't go anywhere despite showing some promise, from what I've been able to gleam (the program was quietly killed and not much talked about after) was to do this program fleet wide would require a massive startup cost that Rummy and Co. didn't want to pay and there was resistance from the fleet over this program.
On LCS it was decided to implement this maintenance strategy from the beginning. The original idea was for the crew to pass on any PMS above a weekly to the maintenance establishment. That wasn't as workable as originally thought and extra crew have since been added but the core idea is still there and it should be workable. If it ends up being cost effective or not is another question that is complicated by the USN buying both variants with little standard equipment between the two.
 

colay

New Member
Cereberus and Leviathan

One vision of the future surface warfare fleet would have the Navy focus on two platforms to supplant the range of vessels in today's fleet. It builds on Adm. Greenert's "Payloads and Platforms" mantra and allows the proposed designs to be configured in lego-like fashion using modular mission "kits" to provide the desired capability at affordable price points... or so they say. Interesting reading.

A Modular Warship for 2025 | U.S. Naval Institute

A Modular Warship for 2025

By Lieutenant Commander Matthew Smidt, U.S. Navy, and Captain Michael Junge, U.S. Navy

A common hull design adaptable to multiple missions would make tomorrow’s Navy flexible, versatile, and affordable...

Two Baselines: One Large, One Small

What to do? Simple: The Navy must leverage modular plug-and-play operation systems in two different-sized, moderately armed and manned baseline hulls. The larger hull would fill the Graham/Bosworth role of “carrier of large objects” with reconfigurable holds and flight decks, while the smaller hulls would fill the “scout fighter” role. Neither term, however, fits today’s parlance well. In fact, because of the concepts presented here, naming the variants so that they meet both traditional and future naming convention and concepts proved exceptionally difficult.

For the sake of simplicity, we chose a more mythic naming concept of Leviathan and Cerberus—Leviathan for the large and capacious ship, Cerberus for the smaller but equally multimission craft. But, to press the concept farther, the modular systems and interfaces would be designed so that the Leviathan class could carry any or all of the Cerberus-class modules, while the Cerberus class would only be limited by the volume and size of modules. True reconfiguration, true modularity. Not only following the CNO’s dictum that “we must decouple the platform and the payload” but moving toward the 20-foot equivalent unit that transformed break-bulk cargo ships to modern container ships, a concept of truly universal and interchangeable platforms and payloads.

Begin with the Cerberus variant. As the smaller of the two, the most tradeoffs must be made here, and Cerberus should be thought of as the threshold requirement. In modern taxonomy, think of Cerberus as a “moderately capable large destroyer hull” with several payload spaces throughout. The use of such spaces allows one hull to meet the requirements across most surface-combatant classes. If the combatant commanders need a specific capability, the existing Cerberus can be tailored to meet mission requirements with a minimally invasive yard period instead of a lengthy modernization. The same ship can meet simple presence, theater antisubmarine warfare, or integrated air- and missile-defense requirements throughout her life. Over the past decades combat systems have become the primary drivers of warship costs; further, over the 30 years of a ship’s life it is the combat systems that are the fastest to reach obsolescence. A modular Cerberus provides three advantages, allowing the Navy to tailor the ship to mission needs, allowing for a single Fleet-wide hull form, and allowing a scalable model of manning, maintenance, and training to increase efficiency.

The proposed baseline Cerberus is a large hull that by itself—without the incorporation of a single mission package—could replace the LCS in low-intensity conflict scenarios or presence missions but is accepted as not tailored to any one specific high-end complex mission.

The Leviathan variant would be based on the modern amphibious-assault ship hull. The current gas-turbine technology would transition to electric drive, and the mission modules would fit within the hangar, hull, and superstructure. The ship would share common control systems, hull, mechanical, and electrical interfaces and designs, as well as basic armament and combat systems. In essence, the Leviathan version would be “Cerberus + large flight deck”—with the added capacity and volume to berth and feed more crew and passengers...


More at the link.
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It's one of those things that sound awesome in theory, but probably aren't workable today.

For example, the proposed Leviathan is to be based on a big deck amphib hull. Fine...but CATOBAR aircraft need a 30+kt capable ship. Assuming you could make the propulsion unit "mission modular" to swap between nuclear and GTMs (or go nuclear across the board), there's still the issue of having a hull that needs to simultaneously do high speed dashes and have low speed dynamic positioning control to perform well deck operations. I'm not a naval architect, but those don't seem like very compatible requirements.

The Cerberus idea is probably more workable...but the interfaces are still going to make things difficult. Even if you could standardize the interfaces for black boxes to talk to each other, the mechanical requirements don't have the same kind of commonality. A large caliber gun has different requirements compared to a missile launcher or CIWS. I do think this is something that "could" be done, but I'm more skeptical about how well it would work in execution, as it would likely force some tradeoffs in engineering efficiency of each combat system, and possibly the ship overall. And you still need to buy those expensive systems...while I'm sure the yardwork labor is expensive, I'm pretty sure the equipment R&D and procurement costs are the lion's share of the overall bill.
 

colay

New Member
Yes, looks good in concept. It seems to ignore a lot of what theNavy has been preaching about the importance of operating in the littorals and the usefulness of smaller, shallow-draft vessels ala LCS.

My understanding is that CVNs aren't intended for replacement by Leviathan... along with Cereberus they are aimed at the surface warfare arena. Are amphibious aviation ships considered part of the surface warfare fleet? Not sure but it Leviathan is proposed to have a flight deck so operating rotary and STOVL aircraft would be a given.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Are amphibious aviation ships considered part of the surface warfare fleet?
Nope, they have their own battlegroup structure

in effect, if you want to be expansive and give them light carrier status (similar to cold war ASW carrier status) then the US has close to 20 discrete "carrier" battlegroups

they are ARG or ESG's depending on group structure
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Since 2009 the U.S. Navy has been developing and testing a series of robotic mini-submarines, or AUVs (Autonomous Undersea Vehicle) that are silent, very small, and able to operate on their own for up to a year. The first models were two meters (six feet) long and weighed 59 kg (130 pounds) and built to operate completely on its own collecting valuable information about underwater “weather”. What this AUV does is automatically move slowly (30-70 kilometers a day) underwater, collecting data on salinity and temperature and transmitting back via a satellite link every hour or so as the AUV briefly reaches the surface. This data improves the effectiveness of sonars used by friendly forces, making it easier to detect and track enemy submarines. That’s because the speed of sound travelling through water varies according the temperature and salinity of the water. Having more precise data on salinity and temperature in a large body of water makes your underwater sensors (sonar, which detects sound to determine what is out there) more accurate. The current navy AUVs can dive as far down as 200 meters (620 feet) but new models will be able to go down to 1,000 meters or more.
Nope, well before then.

I was working on USV and AUV's in Hawai'i in 2004

Its also good practice to quote and cite your source, otherwise people will assume that its your own work - in your case you have copy and pasted and not attributed to the original source - which is also a copywrite issue.

This is compounded by the fact that you are quoting an article which is also factually incorrect in parts - which is why you give atrribution as you then don't look like someone who has made something up and passed it off as fact.

I worked on military USV and AUV tech 2004-2007, the USN had been working on that tech well before then.
 

colay

New Member
Nope, they have their own battlegroup structure

in effect, if you want to be expansive and give them light carrier status (similar to cold war ASW carrier status) then the US has close to 20 discrete "carrier" battlegroups

they are ARG or ESG's depending on group structure
Thanks for the info. Interesting also AFAIK the Navy has assigned Black Shoe sailor to skipper the new LHA-6 instead of someone with an aviation background.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for the info. Interesting also AFAIK the Navy has assigned Black Shoe sailor to skipper the new LHA-6 instead of someone with an aviation background.
Bear in mind that my comment is deliberately broad brush. There are a few USN or recent ex USN in here who can add precison and detail to the context of what I've said.
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for the info. Interesting also AFAIK the Navy has assigned Black Shoe sailor to skipper the new LHA-6 instead of someone with an aviation background.
LHA/LHD command is split between skimmers and airedales.

And if I'm not mistaken, it's actually cycled in a deliberate rotation between the two communities for the top two jobs onboard. In other words, a Skimmer CO will have an Airedale XO and vice versa. Probably one of the better manning decisions all things considered. CVN command on the other hand, has always been an aviator command...but IMO that is more tradition and a manning game than anything else.

At the Flag level, ESG and CSG command also rotates.

When you say "part of surface warfare fleet" it really depends on your definition.
They are surface ships, and mostly manned by surface warfare sailors. But they mostly justify their existence to support the primary mission of the USMC. They don't really perform "surface warfare" as a warfare area, but in a theoretical sense, with the right attached aviation or well deck assets (boats), they could.
 

colay

New Member
OUCH!
It's a big sky and a big ocean but accidents will happen. Was the intent to have the drone emulate an incoming hostile missile and have the operator divert at the last minute?



http://defensetech.org/2013/11/20/target-drone-crashes-into-navy-cruiser/

Target Drone Crashes Into Navy Cruiser
November 20th, 2013

Authorities and Navy officials are investigating the cause of an accident this past Saturday off the coast of Southern California wherein a small unmanned aircraft system crashed into a Navy cruiser, the USS Chancellorsville, service officials confirmed.

The drone was being used as part of a training exercise when it malfunctioned above the surface, crashing down into the ship, according to the Los Angeles Times.

Two sailors suffered minor burns in the incident, Navy officials told the paper.

Sailors aboard the ship were using the drone to test the ship’s radar tracking system. The USS Chancellorsville is an Aegis cruiser meaning it is equipped with ballistic missile defense technology, including radar. The crew of the ship was performing what’s called Combat System Ship Qualification Trials, according to the U.S. Naval Institute News.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A short news item in the current edition of "The Navy" indicates that USS Wasp will forward deploy to the Asia -Pacific region in 2017 with an air group including a squadron of 16 F-35B. The story indicated that all 16 aircraft could "potentially be deployed on Wasp during the deployment that suggested the norm would usually be a smaller detachment; I assume this is the way AV-8Bs are currently deployed, a full squadron assigned to the ESG with a detachment of six or so actually deployed from the LHD / LHA?

Anyway, 6 or 16 F-35B will really change the capability of an ESG.

Out of curiosity, when a full squadron is deployed from the LHD / LHA what else is carried? Do they land most of the troops and equipment as well as the rotary fleet and embark Seahawks instead to operate as a SCS, or do they just cut back the rotary assets to make space for the additional jets but retain their amphibious role?
 

t68

Well-Known Member
A short news item in the current edition of "The Navy" indicates that USS Wasp will forward deploy to the Asia -Pacific region in 2017 with an air group including a squadron of 16 F-35B. The story indicated that all 16 aircraft could "potentially be deployed on Wasp during the deployment that suggested the norm would usually be a smaller detachment; I assume this is the way AV-8Bs are currently deployed, a full squadron assigned to the ESG with a detachment of six or so actually deployed from the LHD / LHA?

Anyway, 6 or 16 F-35B will really change the capability of an ESG.

Out of curiosity, when a full squadron is deployed from the LHD / LHA what else is carried? Do they land most of the troops and equipment as well as the rotary fleet and embark Seahawks instead to operate as a SCS, or do they just cut back the rotary assets to make space for the additional jets but retain their amphibious role?
Funny thing I was looking into that a while ago. During Iraqi Freedom I am lead to believe that USS Bataan (LHD-5) & USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD-6) where used as Harrier carriers.

The Wasp class can function as aircraft carriers, operating 20 AV-8Bs in the sea control role, plus six ASW helicopters, I would expect that number to be on the low side to operate efficiently as the Italian carrier Cavour list a max load of 30 aircraft. Numerous sites are indicating that the same numbers will apply to the F35B.
Wasp Class Amphibious Assault Ship | Military-Today.com
America Class Amphibious Assault Ship | Military-Today.com
Cavour Light Aircraft Carrier | Military-Today.com

With USS Makin Island (LHD-8) & USS America (LHA-6) using combined diesel/gas turbine propulsion it somewhat makes logistics for bunkerage easier for the ship and aircraft.

I remember a USN officer heaping praise on these type of vessel as it’s a cheaper way of getting in fixed wing naval operations without the huge cost of CATOBAR cousins.
 
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