Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Do you have the dimensions? It's not quite the same as NSM, is it?

I presume Marte is precluded by the wings, even folded.
JSM has been taken from NSM but the outer mould line has changed to fit F-35 internal bays and the warhead is different. It's also been "ruggedised" to handle launch from a fast mover, which is an issue for missiles designed for ship or helicopter carriage (stores separation, G forces and vibration issues I suspect). JSM is 3.95m long and weighs 400kgs. Not sure of the diameter.

Marte would fit length wise (at 3.7m or so) but again I'm not sure about diameter. In any case I'm not sure it's even been adapted to any strike fighter for external carriage so I'm not sure anyone would have even looked at integrating it internally on F-35. Italy might be vaguely interested, but I can't imagine anyone else being so.

I think most nations will be satisfied just getting AGM-154 JSOW-C1 onto their F-35's from Block IV onwards. Beyond that is WAY too far into the future to worry at the moment...
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
I think most nations will be satisfied just getting AGM-154 JSOW-C1 onto their F-35's from Block IV onwards. Beyond that is WAY too far into the future to worry at the moment...
I'm sure you are correct, but I do remember reading a while back that another development of the JSOW was the JSOW-ER, which adds a small jet engine within the existing body, I've read that it has been tested and flown to more than 400kms, but not heard if it will go into production or not.

If it does go into production, that will possibly mean there are two options for internal carriage on F-35's by powered ASM's.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
Marte would fit length wise (at 3.7m or so) but again I'm not sure about diameter. In any case I'm not sure it's even been adapted to any strike fighter for external carriage ....
Good point, & I think that will also apply to FASGW(H).
 

weegee

Active Member
Competency of legacy hornets

Hi Guys,

I have been wondering for a while now where do we stand with our Legacy Hornets how effective are they still? I know that the super's are competent enough to deal with any of the Russian offerings in the area but what about the Legacy FA-18's. I also know that our FA-18's have had ample updates over their lifetime and they are as up to date as they can be "ish" but in capability terms how do the legacy's stack up against the super's?

I am just wondering that if by the time the F35's are being delivered are the legacy's going to be like the F1-11's? and be more of an symbol of power rather than actual capability? and if so will the RAAF see an actual drop in capability untill all F35's are on line?

Thanks
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Actually that got me thinking, has anyone heard what the go is with the additional SHs requested by the previous government? Are they still on the cards or is an earlier F-35 back in play?
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Actually that got me thinking, has anyone heard what the go is with the additional SHs requested by the previous government? Are they still on the cards or is an earlier F-35 back in play?
Do you actually mean the 12 new build Growlers?

I've been thinking something similar too, when the Gillard Government produced the 2013 DWP back in May I've been wondering when an official announcement will be made on the Defence website about the 12 new build Growlers, there didn't appear to be any announcement by the former Def Min prior to the election and there certainly hasn't been any announcements since the election.

And there hasn't been anything official on the Boeing website that I've seen either, (I've noticed quiet often on the Boeing site that even though a particular country says it is intending to order something, Boeing doesn't usually put out a press release till the order is official), maybe the order hasn't been signed as yet?


On the F-35, one thing I did find interesting in the lead up to the election was a paragraph out of the Coalition's defence policy (page 5 of the attached PDF) the paragraph is repeated below:

http://lpaweb-static.s3.amazonaws.c...on's policy document for Stronger Defence.pdf


The Coalition remains committed to the choice of the Howard Government and that Australia may need up to 100 JSFs. In government, if the Chief of the Defence Force and Service Chiefs confirm that the JSF is still the best aircraft to meet Australia’s future air combat requirements, we will proceed with the initial purchase of up to 72 JSFs (the exact number will depend on commitments by the Rudd-Gillard Government to purchase more Super Hornets).
When talking of the F-35, both political parties have used the words 'up to 100', but that's the first time I've seen 'up to 72' used, not trying to read too much into a pre-election policy statement, but it was interesting to see the qualification on the 72 that the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Government say they were committed to. So maybe it's not a done deal on the additional 12 Growlers or if it is, the Coalition is leaving the door open for less than 72.

Not suggesting that it will be the case, political parties say and do different things when they go from Opposition to Government.

Suppose we just have to wait till the new Def Min makes announcements about the status of 12 Growlers and of course the next 12 F-35's, which are due to be ordered next year, and hopefully something on when the next 58 will be ordered too.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
All smoke and mirrors, there will be elements of government who will try and cut defence further while to opportunity remains to blame Labor, others who will happily maintain Labors cuts and others still who will be fighting the good fight to restore or even increase spending. Who wins and what the final compromise will be is yet to be seen.
 

King Wally

Active Member
Talking earlier today about the Growlers, just came across this on the Defence website:

Defence News and Media » RAAF starts Growler training in the United States

Growler training has just started in the US, the media release also mentions that we start flying our own Growlers in 2017.
Thank you, that's probably the most solid sign I've yet seen regarding the Growlers. From my limited understanding of the complex Growler capability I believe they should in fact greatly increase the lethality of the other aircraft around them. In many ways giving the classic hornets and SH a real potent edge. I'd love someone to explain this to me a little closer however as it sounds very interesting to a lay person such as myself.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Hi Guys,

I have been wondering for a while now where do we stand with our Legacy Hornets how effective are they still? I know that the super's are competent enough to deal with any of the Russian offerings in the area but what about the Legacy FA-18's. I also know that our FA-18's have had ample updates over their lifetime and they are as up to date as they can be "ish" but in capability terms how do the legacy's stack up against the super's?

I am just wondering that if by the time the F35's are being delivered are the legacy's going to be like the F1-11's? and be more of an symbol of power rather than actual capability? and if so will the RAAF see an actual drop in capability untill all F35's are on line?

Thanks
Not going to get into the debate of dealing with Russian offerings in the area, I can’t really see who we would have to be dealing with in our region as it currently stands anyway.

How much more up to date 'ish' can the Classic's be at this stage of their service life and what's remaining of it?

Compared to when they were first delivered they have had their radar updated, Sidewinder M / Sparrow M updated to ASRAAM / AMRAAM, JHMCS, JASSM, JDAM, etc, and compared to the weapons available on the SHornet it appears very similar, with the exception of AIM-9X (in place of ASRAAM) and JSOW (in place of JASSM).

Range/payload of the Super appears to better, and I’m sure there are lots of other physical differences that could be compared, but is there a point to comparing that? Probably the biggest difference between the two would be the capability difference of the sensors, especially the AESA radar.

As I understand it, an AESA radar can provide the pilot with a weapons quality track straight away compared to a conventional radar where a number of sweeps may have to be done to obtain a weapons quality track, as I also understand it an AESA radar has the potential to obtain a track outside the maximum range of the weapons being carried too.

And that I think is the whole point of where we are heading, apart from low observability, higher situational awareness, longer range sensors, better integration of sensors that allow decisions to be made quicker, especially before the other guy knows about it.

How does that help the Classic fleet? I’ve also read that with a mixed package of Supers and Classics, the Super is also able to provide the Classic with its sensor information thereby enhancing the capabilities of the Classic.

I think the bigger issue facing the Classic will be more about fatigue and hours left on the airframes before replacement, assuming there are no further delays with the F-35 or some unexpected airframe issues appear out of the blue, then hopefully they will remain as capable as they can be up to the point of retirement, without having to throw extra buckets of money at them.

There is no doubt that over the coming years before the F-35’s enter service that some of the more worn out airframes will be retired and also when the first Sqn(s) start to transition to the F-35, so there will be a drop in total number of airframes available, but that should also be counter balanced to a degree by the addition of the 12 Growlers and also by being able to operate alongside the Supers and take advantage of their sensors, if the situation requires it, till the whole Classic fleet is replaced.

Anyway, just my opinion is all.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
At the risk of getting into a vs. discussion it would be interesting to know what the RAAF thinks of the ASRAAM vs AIM-9X seeing as they operate both? My understanding is the ASRAAM offers almost BVR but then again cant remember where I read that so it could just be fanboi rubbish or marketing hype.

I suppose the question is are they comparable or could they actually be seen as complementary?
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
At the risk of getting into a vs. discussion it would be interesting to know what the RAAF thinks of the ASRAAM vs AIM-9X seeing as they operate both? My understanding is the ASRAAM offers almost BVR but then again cant remember where I read that so it could just be fanboi rubbish or marketing hype.

I suppose the question is are they comparable or could they actually be seen as complementary?
I think what would be interesting too is to go back and know the reasons why ASRAAM was chosen over AIM-9X as the replacement for the AIM-9M on the Classics in the first place.

One thing I have read, true or not, about the differences is that ASRAAM has a longer range and higher speed, but is not as maneuverable, so I suppose everything is a trade off in the end.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
At the risk of getting into a vs. discussion it would be interesting to know what the RAAF thinks of the ASRAAM vs AIM-9X seeing as they operate both? My understanding is the ASRAAM offers almost BVR but then again cant remember where I read that so it could just be fanboi rubbish or marketing hype.

I suppose the question is are they comparable or could they actually be seen as complementary?
I assume the ASRAAM has a longer range given it has a larger motor and looks to have less drag on the airframe. Have also heard anecdotal commentary about ASRAAM's near-BVR performance, don't know if it'd be complimentary though when you could potentially sling an AMRAAM-C7 or D in place of one of the shorter ranged missiles.

Personally I'm more curious to see how CUDA works out and where that sits in relation to ASRAAM/AIM-9X and so on...
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I'm sure you are correct, but I do remember reading a while back that another development of the JSOW was the JSOW-ER, which adds a small jet engine within the existing body, I've read that it has been tested and flown to more than 400kms, but not heard if it will go into production or not.

If it does go into production, that will possibly mean there are two options for internal carriage on F-35's by powered ASM's.
That is a possibility, though the 'powered' aspects of JSM compared to JSOW-ER are significantly different in concept.

JSM is a high subsonic cruise weapon with powered high G agility in it's terminal engagement phase.

JSOW-ER features a relatively small, low powered engine designed to extend range.

I don't think even Raytheon would argue the limitations of the small Williams engine for JSOW-ER as being suited for powering extreme maneuvering in the terminal phase of flight as a true powered and modern ASM is intended to do.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
AFAIK the engine is only about extending the range and doesn't offer much in terms of performance like speed or whatever anyway.

Compared to other ASMs about, it'll spend more time in the engagement zone of a ships self defence weaponry and won't have the ability to physically evade these measures so great either.
 

hairyman

Active Member
From memory. an order for 12 super hornets and 12 growlers was /to be placed. The super hornets were to replace classic hornets that are wearing out. I just dont know whether additional F18-F' were to be ordered, or the single seat F18-E, seeing that they are to replace th single seat classic hornet.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think what would be interesting too is to go back and know the reasons why ASRAAM was chosen over AIM-9X as the replacement for the AIM-9M on the Classics in the first place.

One thing I have read, true or not, about the differences is that ASRAAM has a longer range and higher speed, but is not as manoeuvrable, so I suppose everything is a trade off in the end.
9X Block III is supposed to have 50-60% longer range than the current model of 9X so that would fix that. ASRAAM now looks a bit old hat in comparison, no data link vs a two way on the 9X for instance.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
From memory. an order for 12 super hornets and 12 growlers was /to be placed. The super hornets were to replace classic hornets that are wearing out. I just dont know whether additional F18-F' were to be ordered, or the single seat F18-E, seeing that they are to replace th single seat classic hornet.

Back last year the previous Government was looking at a number of options in case there were further issues with the F-35 so in their words, there would be no capability gap, they were keeping their options open.

Earlier in that year (2012) their had been a DSCA notification for the modification kits and pods to upgrade 12 of the original 24 Super Hornets to Growler, eg the 12 that had been pre-wired.

Then around the end of last year / early this year, they also put in a request to the US for pricing and availability on another 12 F's and 12 Growlers, just because a notification appears through the DSCA doesn't necessarily mean that the purchase will go through. This all changed again when the new Defence White Paper was released in May this year.

Where it stands as at today is: 12 new build Growlers are being purchased, the original 24 F's that replaced the F-111's are being kept as is for at least 20 years compared to the original plan for 10 years and the DWP also confirmed that the 71 remaining Classics would be replaced with 72 F-35's.

The Government has left the decision to go to the full 100 F-35's at around the end of the 2020's to a future Government.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
9X Block III is supposed to have 50-60% longer range than the current model of 9X so that would fix that. ASRAAM now looks a bit old hat in comparison, no data link vs a two way on the 9X for instance.
I suppose when ASRAAM was selected for the RAAF at the end of the 1990's it was a different situation back then.

But yes Block III certainly seem to be a big leap in range from the original 9X, it's almost like its evolving into an AMRAAM!!
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Wouldn't be surprised if the range extension in part to do with other nations developing LO designs in that while they may be trying to reduce radar signature and things like that, they'll still have a regular thermal signature. Something which AIM-9X Blk III will be able to deal with at longer ranges.

Just a thought.
 
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