Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Actually that got me thinking, has anyone heard what the go is with the additional SHs requested by the previous government? Are they still on the cards or is an earlier F-35 back in play?
There would be more risk to the new government politically in cancelling additional SHs and bringing the F-35 acquisition forward. At the moment the whole thing is a political non-issue and most governments would be happy to leave it that way.

Any problems with the Growlers could be conveniently laid at the feet of the old government, which would suit the coalition just fine.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I sort of look at the RAAFs F/A-18Fs as the potential future RNZAF ACF. RAAF keeps the Growlers as a force multiplier but transfers the rest, including conversion training, to NZ once the F-35s come on line.
 

Navor86

Member
Does anyone here have an insight into the ORBAT of the RAAF's new SECFOR units. I understand three have been formed, it appears the RAAF is following the USAF Security Forces model.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Came across this today on the RAAF website:

F-35s on track for delivery - Royal Australian Air Force


As Australia's first F-35A – commonly known as the Joint Strike Fighter – rolls along the assembly-line, Air Force’s first F-35A squadron is on track to be operational in 2020, according to New Air Combat Capability Project Manager Air Vice Marshal (AVM) Kym Osley.

AVM Osley was at the F-35A manufacturing plant Fort Worth in Texas recently when the RAAF’s first F-35A came together. “They put the three parts of the fuselage together and installed the wings,” AVM Osley said. “We expect the first Australian F-35A to come off the production line in July 2014 and the second in August 2014.”

After production is complete, the jets will fly to Luke Air Force Base in Arizona to be used in the pilot training pool. “They will be integrated into a US Air Force squadron as part of the pilot training continuum,” AVM Osley said. “We expect our first Australian pilot to start training in early 2015. There will be more people training in the years after that and we expect our first aircraft to be in Australia in 2018.”

The first operational squadron of F-35As, which will be No. 3 Squadron, should be up and running by the end of 2020. AVM Osley said the new F-35As came in slightly less than the expected $130 million for each aircraft and future aircraft were expected to reduce further in price. “It is pleasing to see that the program has been able to get the price of the aircraft down, with the aircraft costs in each successive annual production run coming in below the previous year, and below US Government estimated costs,” he said.

He said the program had undergone significant testing but about 60 per cent was still to be completed. “In terms of testing there are no show stoppers at this point in time,” he said. “Now they’re up to dropping air-to-air and air-to-ground telemetry weapons. Later this year they will be seeing the first live ‘all up’ missiles and bombs to test end-to-end performance and accuracy.” With system development and testing of the aircraft being done by the Joint Program Office and Lockheed Martin in the US, the main job of the RAAF was to prepare for the integration of the F-35A into RAAF service, according to AVM Osley.
I'd been wondering which Squadron was going to transition first to the F-35, it appears that No 3 Sqn will be the first, I'd imagined that maybe No 2 OCU would have transitioned first, then an operational Sqn.

The other thing I found interesting was that I had also thought that the first F-35's weren't due to arrive in Australia till 2020, in fact the first aircraft are due in 2018 and be operational by the end of 2020. (I was under the belief that the first Sqn was staying in the US to train before eventually arriving).

Not long now!
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Does anyone here have an insight into the ORBAT of the RAAF's new SECFOR units. I understand three have been formed, it appears the RAAF is following the USAF Security Forces model.
Do you mean these?

No. 1 Security Forces Squadron, RAAF Base Williamtown
No. 2 Security Forces Squadron, RAAF Base Amberley
No. 3 Security Forces Squadron, RAFF Base Edinburgh
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Has anyone heard if the RAAF will get anymore C17 before the line closes, how many does the RAAF realistically need?
3 extra aircraft to make 9, we ordered 10 C27J which I have always wondered how they came up with that figure.

Boeing: Existing Customers Might Sign Up for More C-17s | Defense News | defensenews.com
Would it be viable to buy additional C-17 and C-27 so as to dispense with the C-130 all together? It would be interesting to see an analysis on cost vs capability of two types vs three types and what the best mix would be. A possibility should the Herc be dropped in favor of additional Spartans and Globemasters would be a niche tilt-rotor capability.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Would it be viable to buy additional C-17 and C-27 so as to dispense with the C-130 all together? It would be interesting to see an analysis on cost vs capability of two types vs three types and what the best mix would be. A possibility should the Herc be dropped in favor of additional Spartans and Globemasters would be a niche tilt-rotor capability.
So you suggest acquire say 10 CV22 Osprey & get rid of the Hercs? Your Spartans and Globemasters would give you a good mix if you added say 5 and 3 respectively. The Ospreys would be niche and it could do COD to the LHDs amongst many other taskings. I understand that they are some what pricey to acquire and operate at the moment.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
So you suggest acquire say 10 CV22 Osprey & get rid of the Hercs? Your Spartans and Globemasters would give you a good mix if you added say 5 and 3 respectively. The Ospreys would be niche and it could do COD to the LHDs amongst many other taskings. I understand that they are some what pricey to acquire and operate at the moment.
The Ospreys are a bit of a dream and I will get back to them later. On dropping the Hercs I suppose it would come down to what they can do more economically than the Spartan or Globemaster and whether they conduct these tasks often enough to make retaining the Herc the more sensible and affordable option.

On the Osprey, what could make it an option is the USMC presence in northern Australia. With US platforms deploying for extended periods every year there could be a business case to establish support facilities in QLD or NT which could / would subsidise an Australian buy.
 

hairyman

Active Member
Rather than the Osprey, is there any place in the RAAF for the Australian produced planes, like the new Nomad, or Air Truck?
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Would it be viable to buy additional C-17 and C-27 so as to dispense with the C-130 all together? It would be interesting to see an analysis on cost vs capability of two types vs three types and what the best mix would be. A possibility should the Herc be dropped in favor of additional Spartans and Globemasters would be a niche tilt-rotor capability.
I never thought of dropping the Hercules all together, but would be interesting to see if it would feasible. To be honest I think their is a case for acquiring V22 but as said the $ value would be the main factors in not getting them but it rely would be the replacement for DHC-4 Caribou and able to use the LHD but from memory would only be able to take one st a time due to its size.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My thinking was the Herc overlaps (or is overlapped by) both the C-17 and the C-27 missions where the Osprey offers unique capabilities not possessed by any of the other three designs.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
If and its still a big 'if', but if the RAAF did want 1 or 2 more C-17's, a decision would appear to have to be made pretty quick.

If I remember correctly they cost a bit over $200m each, two airframes plus spares and support would probably cost near enough to half a Billion, and the question would be, were does the money come from and would any existing capability have to be sacrificed to do that?

An argument could be made as to their value as humanitarian assets, which we've seen demonstrated on many occasions, maybe an argument could be made too for supplementary funding to assist in a possible purchase. I've also read that space at Amberley is also maxed out, if so, then more dollars would have to be put into expanding facilities there or the extra airframes could be based at Richmond, still I can't see it happening.

And of course too with the withdrawal from Afghanistan, you would assume the work load on the C-17 fleet would be reduced to a degree, maybe that is another thing, apart from the cost, that would go against an additional purchase.

Not that I'm against more C-17's, but if there was extra money floating around, which there doesn't appear to be, I'd rather see Air Lift Group get 3-5 more KC-30A's to increase the aerial refuelling capability, but that's another story!!
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
My thinking was the Herc overlaps (or is overlapped by) both the C-17 and the C-27 missions where the Osprey offers unique capabilities not possessed by any of the other three designs.
The Osprey doesn't fit into the RAAF's current force elements so if they were to be acquired they would have to be in place of Army or Navy helicopters or part of a new Air Force establishment. You could, and people did, make arguments about the Osprey replacing the Bou but the C-27J has been tagged for that job and will no doubt push the former Bou force far more into the SOF support role than they have in the past with things like ISR and palletised gunships. As it stands the C-27J will have the RAAF’s mission for infil and exfil of SOF and since the RAAF lacks an operational CSAR capability there is no need for the Osprey. Australia would also make a great base for the USMC’s MAG 36 which is currently reequipping with Ospreys at Okinawa. Two squadrons of these at Darwin would give them unrestricted training operations and huge reach for Army and USMC infantry based at Darwin in time of emergency.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I had heard a rumour that we were getting a 7th C17, so we would have 5-6 on line at all times.
Received an e-mail from my old boss a few weeks ago that put that rumour to rest, unfortunatly, we are not getting more C17,s.
Old boss is now assistant def min.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
My thinking was the Herc overlaps (or is overlapped by) both the C-17 and the C-27 missions where the Osprey offers unique capabilities not possessed by any of the other three designs.
Yes the V-22 does provide some niche capabilities, but there is a significant pricetag to do so. I would need to either go through my info or some of my old posts, but IIRC the price for a V-22 and a new C-130J is about the same. Of course were the V-22 to enter ADF service, then the usual support activites would also need to be stood up (training flight crews, ground crews, etc) which would add more to the cost of standing up a V-22 unit. AFAIK in terms of lift, a V-22 cannot move the same size cargoes that a C-27J can move, but can get close in terms of displacement to the cargo loads of a C-27J and CH-47.

Pretty much the one thing it can do better than the C-17, C-130J, C-27J, and the CH-47 is get to and from an area where it might need to hover or take off/land vertically. Even the CH-47 seems to pretty much exceed what a V-22 can do in all lift areas except for speed and range.

Those two characteristics alone IMO are not worth paying twice the price of a CH-47 for more vertical lift.

-Cheers
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yes the V-22 does provide some niche capabilities, but there is a significant pricetag to do so. I would need to either go through my info or some of my old posts, but IIRC the price for a V-22 and a new C-130J is about the same. Of course were the V-22 to enter ADF service, then the usual support activites would also need to be stood up (training flight crews, ground crews, etc) which would add more to the cost of standing up a V-22 unit. AFAIK in terms of lift, a V-22 cannot move the same size cargoes that a C-27J can move, but can get close in terms of displacement to the cargo loads of a C-27J and CH-47.

Pretty much the one thing it can do better than the C-17, C-130J, C-27J, and the CH-47 is get to and from an area where it might need to hover or take off/land vertically. Even the CH-47 seems to pretty much exceed what a V-22 can do in all lift areas except for speed and range.

Those two characteristics alone IMO are not worth paying twice the price of a CH-47 for more vertical lift.

-Cheers
Valid points.

Maybe a more sensible way forward would be to lose the Hercs and beef up the C-17, C-27 and CH-47 fleets? This way the ADF would still be covering all the capability bases but divesting a substantial cost base in terms of support structure.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Those two characteristics alone IMO are not worth paying twice the price of a CH-47 for more vertical lift.
Using the V-22 as a lifter or assault transport is pretty daft and gawd knows how the USMC got away with it. But for everyone else the V-22 does provide a pretty impressive capability for supporting SOF and CSAR activities. Or if so fitted as a shipboard ASW/ASuW capability. The one big plank against it for SOF support is the ability to transport a SOV. The new GD SOV however fixes this blank which is cold comfort for SOF that have equipped with Supacats. But in a few years when the fleet of Supacats can be retired to guarding gates then the V-22, Flyer combo will be transformative to SOF infil, exfil.
 
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