Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
the "!2" was intended to be about a staged delivery and ongoing availability of a decent core number of platforms

ie 6-8 in service with 2 in deep maint or in build. by the time the final 2 came on the first 2 would be ready for the top paddock etc....
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
the "!2" was intended to be about a staged delivery and ongoing availability of a decent core number of platforms

ie 6-8 in service with 2 in deep maint or in build. by the time the final 2 came on the first 2 would be ready for the top paddock etc....
I guess my issue is lets not build 12 in one go but stage vessel/sm production in batches to allow for balance, steady building work and the implementation of lessions learnt.

I quite like the 4 at a time option particulalry where the new platform progressively replaces the old. As an example the first round of ANZAC II would replace the oldest ANZAC then pause while another platform is in build.

The main reason is to avoid block obslecences
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I guess my issue is lets not build 12 in one go but stage vessel/sm production in batches to allow for balance, steady building work and the implementation of lessions learnt.

I quite like the 4 at a time option particulalry where the new platform progressively replaces the old. As an example the first round of ANZAC II would replace the oldest ANZAC then pause while another platform is in build.

The main reason is to avoid block obslecences
I think the intention is to build 12 over 15-20 years

pretty sure that everyone (esp industry) has said that 12 at once is unachievable - so as you say stage over the relevant catch and release cycles :)
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think the intention is to build 12 over 15-20 years

pretty sure that everyone (esp industry) has said that 12 at once is unachievable - so as you say stage over the relevant catch and release cycles :)
The whole idea is to build and sustain a capability. The smart move would be to progressively introduce the new hulls over an even longer period than 20 years, alternating new builds and full cycle dockings
 

protoplasm

Active Member
The whole idea is to build and sustain a capability. The smart move would be to progressively introduce the new hulls over an even longer period than 20 years, alternating new builds and full cycle dockings
Yep, a good idea might be to build 4 new each decade, along with 8 full cycle dockings each decade. It would just require a bit of foresight and a commitment to capability that is longer than an election cycle...
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
All this talk of escorts for point defence against aircraft and antiship missiles, protecting the amphibs.
What if an escort or more than one gets wounded, or sunk, by air/ sub whatever.
Remember, Choules or LHD can carry a fair proportion of the army, personnel and equipment, and if lost or severely damaged, it would make us almost stuffed in one fell swoop, and if not physically stuffed, then politically stuffed, as the folks at home look to politicians and others for who to blame. If it had happened in 1999, all of a sudden, public support would vanish.
A lot potentially riding on those ships. MAJOR targets. If I were Kameria, it would be worth everything to get to those ships. A compelling target.
They need some extra layers of defence - cheap insurance.
Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAIK the only ships in the whole RAN with any CIWS ATM (besides typhoon) are the FFG's, and these will begin to pay off soon. HMAS Sydney finishes next year and the other FFG's will finish thereafter.
HMAS Hobart will not commission until March 2016, HMAS Brisbane 2017 and the new HMAS Sydney 2019 - if all goes to plan.
It is quite conceivable that there will be no CIWS on any ship for an interim period.
There will be a lot of spare VLS41 and phalanx systems lying around doing nothing ................
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAIK the only ships in the whole RAN with any CIWS ATM (besides typhoon) are the FFG's, and these will begin to pay off soon. HMAS Sydney finishes next year and the other FFG's will finish thereafter.
HMAS Hobart will not commission until March 2016, HMAS Brisbane 2017 and the new HMAS Sydney 2019 - if all goes to plan.
It is quite conceivable that there will be no CIWS on any ship for an interim period.
There will be a lot of spare VLS41 and phalanx systems lying around doing nothing ................
From what I have heard Sydney is basically shagged, besides her crew is needed for Hobart, and that will be from late 2014 onwards as the ship begins harbor trials. Each of the AWDs will need crews long before there commissioning dates.

I understand though that some work has been done assessing Melbourne and Newcastle for life extensions, not sure how far it has gone though.
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
Falklands Lessons

My interpretation of the Falklands experience is that you go to war with what you have.

The same could be said of the Australian experience in East Timor and at the start of WWII.

If you do not maintain a flexibly structured, well equipped and trained armed force of sufficient size you will get caught out.

I feel that this is a form of insurance and you need to be prepared to pay the premium. In Australia we are not doing so and as a result we will probably be caught out again.

Regards,

Massive
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
One thing that has interested me about the Collins replacement is, can production of the 12 boats be produced in such a way that it becomes a ‘perpetual’ production process?

Is it possible, on the one hand, to ensure that Navy has the boats it needs, delivered and available on schedule, and on the other hand ensure that the capability and knowledge of building and maintaining submarines by ASC (or its successors) is continued, without significant production gaps, well into the future and well beyond the current planned production of 12?

It has been suggested by some that by the time sub number 12 is commissioned, that sub number 1 might be due for replacement, as each boat retires, a new one takes its place and continually maintains a fleet of 12 commissioned subs.

This would be great for industry if it was possible and I’d imagine good for the Navy too, the question is, can it be done??

Looking at the Japanese Navy as an example to possibly follow, and yes of course they have a larger submarine fleet (currently 18, including 2 training), but it’s something they appear to do regularly, looking back over the last 5 classes of boats:

* Uzishio class – 7 boats – less than 20yrs in commission
* Yushio class – 10 boats – less than 20yrs in commission
* Harushio class – 7 boats – less than 20yrs in commission (two still in commission as training boats)
* Oyashio class – 11 boats – all still in commission (oldest is 15yrs)
* Soryu class – 9 boats – 5 in commission, 4 building (oldest is 4yrs)

Recent production appears to be split between two builders, each producing a boat every 2 years, but alternating so that a new boat is commissioned each year.

Japan has been commissioning a new boat nearly every year since 1990, and before that there are some gaps, but as I said, since 1990 it pretty well one boat a year.


So looking back at the 6 Collins boats and their 12 replacements, can we do something similar?

The six Collins boats were commissioned over the period of 1996-2003, according to the Government their planned life was 28 years (see attached link below), meaning retirement of the fleet was planned to be between 2024-2031, but since then there is the possibility of giving them one more cycle of 7 years each, that takes them out to 35 years and a retirement period of between 2031-2038.

Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence and Minister for Defence Materiel – Joint Media Release – Collins Class Submarines Update


The first questions are, when is the first Collins replacement going to be ready for commissioning and what will the gap be between each subsequent boat?

It’s hard to find a definite starting point yet, but let’s say that the Submarine fleet will be no bigger than it is until the 7th unit of the replacements is commissioned, I can’t see there being any Collins-II’s in service prior to the decommissioning of the first Collins, maybe I’m wrong, but for the sake of this exercise this is where I’m starting.

If the first boat is commissioned in 2030 and assuming a 2 year gap between commissioning of each sub, then the 12th will be commissioned in 2052.

If on the other hand there was an 18mth gap between commissioning of each boat, still starting with commissioning the 1st in 2030, the 12th boat would commission in mid 2046.

At a two year gap between each commissioning, the first boat will be 22 years old by the time the last is commissioned, at an 18mth gap between commissioning the first boat will be 16 and a half years old when the 12th and last commissions.

The above doesn’t take into account the possibility of ‘batch’ production, as has been suggested by some, possibly the best way forward is to split the 12 boats into batches of 4, with improvements incorporated in each subsequent batch, so possibly there could be a larger gap after each batch of 4 is built.

So what does this tell me if we look at the Japanese Navy model for example, who appear to operate their submarines for around 20 years max?

If boats are delivered at an 18mth gap, when the oldest hull is only 16 and a half years old, then continuous production is probably not cost effective, but on the other hand if delivery is 2 years apart and the oldest hull is 22 years old by then, so maybe it is possible to have a ‘perpetual’ submarine construction capability in this country.

The one downside with a 2 year commissioning cycle (starting in 2030), is that the RAN’s submarine fleet would actually drop to 5 ‘in commission’ boats for a brief period 2038-40 when the last of the Collins retires before the 6th Collins-II commissions in 2040, maybe this is a small price to pay when looking at the big picture?

Anyway, I know the above is all assumptions on my part, maybe production will start sooner, maybe the gaps will vary, who knows!

I’m sure there are greater and smarter minds at work on this issue than mine, but it’s been an interesting exercise to think about and do.

Interested in all your thoughts!!

Cheers,
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
One thing that has interested me about the Collins replacement is, can production of the 12 boats be produced in such a way that it becomes a ‘perpetual’ production process?

Is it possible, on the one hand, to ensure that Navy has the boats it needs, delivered and available on schedule, and on the other hand ensure that the capability and knowledge of building and maintaining submarines by ASC (or its successors) is continued, without significant production gaps, well into the future and well beyond the current planned production of 12?

It has been suggested by some that by the time sub number 12 is commissioned, that sub number 1 might be due for replacement, as each boat retires, a new one takes its place and continually maintains a fleet of 12 commissioned subs.

This would be great for industry if it was possible and I’d imagine good for the Navy too, the question is, can it be done??

Looking at the Japanese Navy as an example to possibly follow, and yes of course they have a larger submarine fleet (currently 18, including 2 training), but it’s something they appear to do regularly, looking back over the last 5 classes of boats:

* Uzishio class – 7 boats – less than 20yrs in commission
* Yushio class – 10 boats – less than 20yrs in commission
* Harushio class – 7 boats – less than 20yrs in commission (two still in commission as training boats)
* Oyashio class – 11 boats – all still in commission (oldest is 15yrs)
* Soryu class – 9 boats – 5 in commission, 4 building (oldest is 4yrs)

Recent production appears to be split between two builders, each producing a boat every 2 years, but alternating so that a new boat is commissioned each year.

Japan has been commissioning a new boat nearly every year since 1990, and before that there are some gaps, but as I said, since 1990 it pretty well one boat a year.


So looking back at the 6 Collins boats and their 12 replacements, can we do something similar?

The six Collins boats were commissioned over the period of 1996-2003, according to the Government their planned life was 28 years (see attached link below), meaning retirement of the fleet was planned to be between 2024-2031, but since then there is the possibility of giving them one more cycle of 7 years each, that takes them out to 35 years and a retirement period of between 2031-2038.

Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence and Minister for Defence Materiel – Joint Media Release – Collins Class Submarines Update


The first questions are, when is the first Collins replacement going to be ready for commissioning and what will the gap be between each subsequent boat?

It’s hard to find a definite starting point yet, but let’s say that the Submarine fleet will be no bigger than it is until the 7th unit of the replacements is commissioned, I can’t see there being any Collins-II’s in service prior to the decommissioning of the first Collins, maybe I’m wrong, but for the sake of this exercise this is where I’m starting.

If the first boat is commissioned in 2030 and assuming a 2 year gap between commissioning of each sub, then the 12th will be commissioned in 2052.

If on the other hand there was an 18mth gap between commissioning of each boat, still starting with commissioning the 1st in 2030, the 12th boat would commission in mid 2046.

At a two year gap between each commissioning, the first boat will be 22 years old by the time the last is commissioned, at an 18mth gap between commissioning the first boat will be 16 and a half years old when the 12th and last commissions.

The above doesn’t take into account the possibility of ‘batch’ production, as has been suggested by some, possibly the best way forward is to split the 12 boats into batches of 4, with improvements incorporated in each subsequent batch, so possibly there could be a larger gap after each batch of 4 is built.

So what does this tell me if we look at the Japanese Navy model for example, who appear to operate their submarines for around 20 years max?

If boats are delivered at an 18mth gap, when the oldest hull is only 16 and a half years old, then continuous production is probably not cost effective, but on the other hand if delivery is 2 years apart and the oldest hull is 22 years old by then, so maybe it is possible to have a ‘perpetual’ submarine construction capability in this country.

The one downside with a 2 year commissioning cycle (starting in 2030), is that the RAN’s submarine fleet would actually drop to 5 ‘in commission’ boats for a brief period 2038-40 when the last of the Collins retires before the 6th Collins-II commissions in 2040, maybe this is a small price to pay when looking at the big picture?

Anyway, I know the above is all assumptions on my part, maybe production will start sooner, maybe the gaps will vary, who knows!

I’m sure there are greater and smarter minds at work on this issue than mine, but it’s been an interesting exercise to think about and do.

Interested in all your thoughts!!

Cheers,
The other aspect to consider is upgrade cost compared to new build. If you coudl avoid the high cost SWUP, SLEP, etc etc through batch production it could be cheaper to build a new hull compared to a massive life extension/upgrade (this comment is not focused on submarines but the broader warship group). Better still of you can on sell the hull in it unimproved from then it could be quite cost effective to buld new hulls and recycle those bits of kit you don't want to, or cannot, sell where they are still effective.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
The other aspect to consider is upgrade cost compared to new build. If you coudl avoid the high cost SWUP, SLEP, etc etc through batch production it could be cheaper to build a new hull compared to a massive life extension/upgrade (this comment is not focused on submarines but the broader warship group). Better still of you can on sell the hull in it unimproved from then it could be quite cost effective to buld new hulls and recycle those bits of kit you don't want to, or cannot, sell where they are still effective.
Which I suppose may be the case with the Japanese subs.

I can't imagine that the Japanese would build their subs to a 'less than' standard in the first place, I would assume that the built standard and equipment would be quiet high, but by replacing them within a 20 year period may mean that those boats only go though one major midlife upgrade to see them through to the time when they are replaced by the next improved class.

All that money saved on upgrades probably goes straight into the follow on class each and every time.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Which I suppose may be the case with the Japanese subs.

I can't imagine that the Japanese would build their subs to a 'less than' standard in the first place, I would assume that the built standard and equipment would be quiet high, but by replacing them within a 20 year period may mean that those boats only go though one major midlife upgrade to see them through to the time when they are replaced by the next improved class.

All that money saved on upgrades probably goes straight into the follow on class each and every time.
Greg Tunny, former MD and CEO of ASC published a paper saying just that several years ago. He provided an analysis of cost verses capability over a number of life cycles, I believe 15, 20, 25 and 30 years although I could be mistaken in my recall of the numbers.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
FBE Move ?

There are reports this morning that Kevin Rudd will be making an announcement today regarding FBE and freeing up expensive property. Possible move to Brisbane and Townsville with areas of FBE to be opened up to cruise ships.

Watch this space

Cheers
 

t68

Well-Known Member
There are reports this morning that Kevin Rudd will be making an announcement today regarding FBE and freeing up expensive property. Possible move to Brisbane and Townsville with areas of FBE to be opened up to cruise ships.

Watch this space

Cheers
Clover Moore will be happy, Abrahams Gubler suggestion should be enacted
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The meat of the substance was more locate the LHDs near the troops they will move, ie Townsville, Brisbane or Darwin: 3 Bde/2RAR, 7 Bde, 1 Bde and probably in that order of likelihood with Townsville a couple of lengths in front. Rather than close down FBE.

The AWDs may find a new home collocated with a new AWD support centre. But you’d be crazy to locate them away from a major capital city (Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide or Perth) because of the population needs to supply the very high skills required by a support centre. While Perth would be an attractive basing location for the AWDs they do need to also have some significant TACAIR nearby so they can train their ‘air warfare’ capability. Sydney/Newcastle or Brisbane/Ipswich are the only places that provide this.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The meat of the substance was more locate the LHDs near the troops they will move, ie Townsville, Brisbane or Darwin: 3 Bde/2RAR, 7 Bde, 1 Bde and probably in that order of likelihood with Townsville a couple of lengths in front. Rather than close down FBE.

The AWDs may find a new home collocated with a new AWD support centre. But you’d be crazy to locate them away from a major capital city (Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide or Perth) because of the population needs to supply the very high skills required by a support centre. While Perth would be an attractive basing location for the AWDs they do need to also have some significant TACAIR nearby so they can train their ‘air warfare’ capability. Sydney/Newcastle or Brisbane/Ipswich are the only places that provide this.
I don't think Rudd has announced anything new here. The raising of the FBE issue is more about ensuring Tanya Plibisek's margin and garnering votes from the inner city pretty people.
 

King Wally

Active Member
Regarding the Collins replacement I came across a reference stating that it will be equipped with land-attack cruise missiles. I'm guessing Tomahawk perhaps?

I understand at present the RAN doesn't field any cruise missile attack capability. I do believe the RAAF does via the Hornets / SH though.

I just wanted to cross check I was drawing the right conclusions regarding capability increase, overall it would have to be pretty advantageous (the Syria situation at present for example) to be able to add a long range land attack capability like Tomahawk to the RAN. Is there by chance something already in existence I'm missing? Modified Harpoon variants with land attack ability etc?

EDIT - on digging deeper it appears (based on old white paper wording) the AWD may have Tomahawk cruise missile capability incorporated. Drawing this capability far closer on the RAN timeline if this happens to be correct. Did this end up being canned or still in the planning?
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Regarding the Collins replacement I came across a reference stating that it will be equipped with land-attack cruise missiles. I'm guessing Tomahawk perhaps?

I understand at present the RAN doesn't field any cruise missile attack capability. I do believe the RAAF does via the Hornets / SH though.

I just wanted to cross check I was drawing the right conclusions regarding capability increase, overall it would have to be pretty advantageous (the Syria situation at present for example) to be able to add a long range land attack capability like Tomahawk to the RAN. Is there by chance something already in existence I'm missing? Modified Harpoon variants with land attack ability etc?

EDIT - on digging deeper it appears (based on old white paper wording) the AWD may have Tomahawk cruise missile capability incorporated. Drawing this capability far closer on the RAN timeline if this happens to be correct. Did this end up being canned or still in the planning?

If you go back and have a look at the 2011 DCP (these projects were moved out of the 2012 DCP I believe because they were beyond the period that the DCP covered) you will see that the relevant projects, they are:

SEA 1000 Ph4 - Future Submarines - Maritime Based Strategic Strike (IOC not set yet)
SEA 4000 Ph4 - AWD - Maritime Based Strategic Strike (IOC was set for the periods between 2022 to 2025)
SEA 5000 Ph3 - Future Frigates - Maritime Based Strategic Strike (IOC was set for the periods between 2027 to 2030)

Looking at those particular plans, (and obviously dates can and probably will change) it probably won't be till the mid 2020's that the AWD's will have that capability, the Future Frigates probably not till around 2030, and the Collins replacements some time after that.

As for the RAAF, I would guess that the capability that you could say is 'closest' to a 'cruise missile capability' would be JASSM that is integrated on to the Classic Hornets.

From what I've read, JASSM has a range near to 400k and if the RAAF ever decided to also purchase JASSM-ER then that range would be extended close to 1000k.

I don't believe currently there are any plans to integrate JASSM on the Super Hornets (maybe that might change now that they are being kept for at least 20 years), but I believe the F-35 will be able to carry JASSM and JASSM-ER externally.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
I don't think Rudd has announced anything new here. The raising of the FBE issue is more about ensuring Tanya Plibisek's margin and garnering votes from the inner city pretty people.
I think you are pretty spot on there.

Apart from appealing to the Greenies by suggesting that this would allow for 'greater access to harbourside areas', which we have plenty available anyway, it also means Rudd can use this announcement as an appeal to QLD voters, especially Brisbane voters that a move to Brisbane would be good for the QLD economy, jobs, jobs, jobs!

NSW Premier O'Farrell has already slammed the idea, saying it will take half a billion dollars out of the NSW economy.

Oh well, less than two weeks to go and the election will be over and we can all get back to normal!!


EDIT:
Just came across this on the SMH site, including a video interview with Neil James:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-closure-under-kevin-rudd-20130826-2smcd.html
 
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ausklr76

New Member
I agree with Mr Gubler on this one that moving navy out of Sydney has probably been on the drawing board for a while!

As i have said in a past post navy needs a secure facility, that doesnt have residential neighbours within spitting distance, of what is Australia's premier naval base. Defence need to know that they can operate freely within their base 24/7 without the threat of legal action because some hop-nob that lives next door cant get their beauty-sleep.
 
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