Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

[Feanor]

Wouldn't the terminator be a far superior all around weapon system for urban warfare? Why would you need at 100+ mm gun in a city?

Look at the turret on the BMPT. It's very vulnerable to small arms fire, including the FCS optics, and the ATGM containers. Not to mention there is still no CONOPS for it. Testing and attempts to develop one have resulted in the Russian military concluding that the BMPT is more effective in open terrain then in cities. There are other problems with it too. That having been said, a dedicated urban warfare vehicle has been designed on the Armata chassis, but it has no resemblance to the BMPT "Terminator", and instead resembles an MBT.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Do land forces units still have organic S-300V tracked theater AD? According to warfare.ru (now warfare.be), some S-300Vs are part of the new air defence brigades.

 

[Feanor]

Do land forces units still have organic S-300V tracked theater AD? According to warfare.ru (now warfare.be), some S-300Vs are part of the new air defence brigades.

I don't know. I do know they're buying the S-300V4 alongside the S-400.

EDIT: There were questions earlier about new gear for the Arctic brigades. It looks like they'll be getting two types of vehicles, the DT-3, an arctic APC and the DT-4, an unarmored version of the same. It's likely they will also use the DT-10P.

The DT-3 was shown at Bronnitsy recently.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/532345.html

 

[Kampgruppe1970]

is Russia still devolping the T-95/ 4th generation MBT or does Russia see the T-90SM as the future of Russian armor for the next decade and a half ??

 

[alexkvaskov]

is Russia still devolping the T-95/ 4th generation MBT or does Russia see the T-90SM as the future of Russian armor for the next decade and a half ??

They're currently working on a next generation MBT that will be part of a series of armored combat and support vehicles built on the Armata unified platform. The Russian MoD isn't procuring any T-90S currently; the T-90MS is likely to remain an export model. Several hundred T-72s are slated to receive minor upgrades over the next 2-3 years after which the new MBT will enter FRP. After that, if everything goes well, it will take anywhere between five and ten years for them to fully rearm their land forces with the new tank.

 

[Feanor]

Some news, 35 (probably 36) 2S19M2 Msta-S systems were delivered to South MD. It's an even further upgraded Msta-S (previously M1s were delivered), and apparently comes with the Nakidka thermal shroud, which means that Nakidka has passed state trials. I wonder when we will see it as standard kit for other vehicles.

Gur Khan attacks!:

 

[Feanor]

Updates, on the Iskander program. As of currently it seems that there are a total of 32 Iskander launchers in service. 12 are in the 26th Missile Bde near St. Petersburg, 12 have just been handed over to the 107th Missile Bde, and 8 are in the 630th Missile Btln (training/testing unit). The 107th Missile Bde took delivery of the full Iskander-M with the Iskander-K built in. It appears that instead of two separate systems, the same launcher can do both. 12 more are due for handover this year, and plans are announced to deploy them to the 102nd Military Base, in Armenia.

9

 

[Feanor]

How many MSTA-S are in service in Russian army ? And how many MSTA-S there is in one batch that you export to foreign countries ? Pleaase . Thanks for the answer

Something like 600-700 Msta-S are supposedly in service total, but it's not actually known. There is no such thing as a batch. Export contracts vary by quantity. Which one specifically are you worried about.

 

[austerlitz]

Any update on armata?

 

[Feanor]

Some models of specialized vehicles based on the Armata were shown recently. Meanwhile the MoD is buying new TOS-1A on the T-72 chassis, as well as other specialized vehicles, which really makes me wonder what the point is.

http://www.avanturist.org/files/messages/2013/08/20/1911366_6d450e73931d7a47d473ce4c5a14bb4b.jpg
http://www.avanturist.org/files/messages/2013/08/20/1911366_72a06146521ed9f35ad206a52c990336.jpg
http://www.avanturist.org/files/messages/2013/08/20/1911366_9d14aeb64ec6759f1e454f0498779a04.jpg

EDIT: More pics here. Khlopotov thinks that these may be fake or inaccurate models, because the chassis looks a lot like Object 195 ("T-95") but personally I'm not sure that Armata is that different.

http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2013/08/blog-post_21.html

EDIT2: The first Tayfun-M MRAPs will be delivered to RVSN (strategic nuclear missile forces) security units this year, under the index BPDM. Apparently they're going to an RVSN unit, that's already equipped with the RS-24 Yars. This wouldn't be the first time these essential motor-rifle units were used to test new equipment, from the Vodnik armored car to the Vystrel. From the 19th to the 30th of August special training was conducted to prepare crews and officers for using these vehicles. The article claims that it will be delivered together with a UAV system, designed to work as part of the security unit. The source is an official MoD press release, so its fairly reliable. I wonder if it will be the Kamaz or Ural version.

http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=11825354@egNews

 

[Knjaz]

Vityaz medium-range air defense complex finally made it into public.


Almaz-Antey Unveils S-350E Vityaz Air Defense System - Defense Update - Military Technology & Defense News

The Russian company Almaz Antey introduced today the newest air defense system from Russia, the S-350E . The new system was displayed today for the first time in public at the MAKS 2013 airshow.

(the article, as always, have some mistakes, but should be ok)

Waiting for Morpheus now.

 

[Feanor]

Vityaz medium-range air defense complex finally made it into public.


Almaz-Antey Unveils S-350E Vityaz Air Defense System - Defense Update - Military Technology & Defense News

(the article, as always, have some mistakes, but should be ok)

Waiting for Morpheus now.

Morpheus or Morphey will be interesting to see, but meanwhile Tor-M2 deliveries are ongoing, replacing older Osa units little by little. The really interesting thing will be to see what chassis they put the Morphey on. Supposedly they want to unify all land forces chassis which means a variant of the Morphey will need to be on each of the unified platforms, Armata, Kurganets, and Bumerang. But realistically I strongly suspect it will end up on its own specialized chassis, like the Tor and Tunguska did. The pictures of the proposed Sosna SAM, replacement for the Strela-10, are on the MT-LB chassis after all.

Meanwhile there are interesting contracts part of MAKS. The MoD just bought 34 Eleron-3SV UAVs. 17 complexes with 2 UAVs each. Iirc the Eleron-3SV was being tested years ago, in trial exercises when they were first testing the new brigade model. They certainly took their time with a contract. In the meantime the MVD and FSB bought the UAV and have been using it. On the upside Eniks (the company that produces it) produces roughly 50 Eniks complexes a year (100 UAVs) for various customers, meaning the MoD order will be relatively small, and easy to fill.

http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/39532/
http://age.lenta.ru/maks_2013/news/2013/08/28/eleron/

EDIT: Due to some nomenclature confusion, the Tayfun-M BPDM I mentioned earlier is actually completely unrelated to the Tayfun MRAP projects by Ural and Kamaz. It's a BTR-82 based security vehicle for military security forces. It's a very big step forward compared to the classical BTR based vehicles. It has an uninhabited combat module with a heavy machinegun, thermal optics, a radar opitmized for detecting ground targets, and a UAV, Eleron-3SV from the looks of it. It also carries an unspecified device for counter-acting command detonated IEDs, probably a variant of the Pelena. Some great photos in the link below.

http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-758.html

 

[Klaus]

@Feanor: Is the Tor still in production or are the units delivered to the ground forces only upgraded ones? And is this the same version that Belarus is receiving?

 

[Feanor]

@Feanor: Is the Tor still in production or are the units delivered to the ground forces only upgraded ones? And is this the same version that Belarus is receiving?

The Tor-M2 is in production, the units being delivered are not upgraded, they're new. The Tor is also in production for export contracts. The Belarussian version is on a wheeled chassis, the Russian one is tracked. Otherwise they should be the same.

Also, the MBT on the Armata chassis is slated to begin state trials before the end of this year.

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And a new thermobaric round for the TOS-1 is being tested. It's being tested on the TOS-1 Buratino, but should be compatible with the new TOS-1A Solntsepek. Personally I think it's lunacy to be buying significant quantities of hardware on a T-72 chassis, when the Armata chassis is just around the corner, but it seems that deliveries of the TOS-1A on the T-72 chassis will continue.

http://lenta.ru/news/2013/09/09/buratino/

 

[Klaus]

Thanks for the quick answer. It's interesting to see that the Tor has been chosen for further production, and not the Tunguska.

A news article on defencetalk says that all standing alert units of the Russian Army will be using only the T-72 and the T-90 from 2015 on, so these units will completely phase out the T-80.

Russian Armata Tank to Enter Testing in November | Army & Land Forces News at DefenceTalk

The company "Vysokotochnye sistemy" anounced that an improved version of the Pantsir-S1 SAM system will be completed by 2017. After that it will be offered to all branches of the Russian armed forces.

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20130911/962498364.html

 

[Feanor]

Thanks for the quick answer. It's interesting to see that the Tor has been chosen for further production, and not the Tunguska.

Not quite.The current Motor-Rifle Brigades have two air-defense battalions. One is completely composed of Tor or Osa SAMs. The other is a composite. One battery consists of MANPADS, one consists of Strela-10 vehicles, and one consists of either Shilka or Tunguska systems. As it stands there are next-generation equivalents for all 4. If I understand correctly the replacement for the Tor is the Morpheus, for the Strela-10 it's the Sosna, for the Tunguska/Shilka it's the Pantsyr, and for the MANPADS it's another MANPADS.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Not quite.The current Motor-Rifle Brigades have two air-defense battalions. One is completely composed of Tor or Osa SAMs. The other is a composite. One battery consists of MANPADS, one consists of Strela-10 vehicles, and one consists of either Shilka or Tunguska systems. As it stands there are next-generation equivalents for all 4. If I understand correctly the replacement for the Tor is the Morpheus, for the Strela-10 it's the Sosna, for the Tunguska/Shilka it's the Pantsyr, and for the MANPADS it's another MANPADS.

Does it make sense replacing all the different SHORADS types? Couldn't the Pantsir replace all of them?

 

[Feanor]

Does it make sense replacing all the different SHORADS types? Couldn't the Pantsir replace all of them?

There's a lot of reasons for why it's done that way. One of them is that they're slightly different systems. Another is powerful lobbies that want to make sure all the different projects, design bureaus, and factories, get orders. A third is that EW assets have a harder time dealing with an IADS that has many different types of systems operating on different frequencies.

The problem with this is higher costs, a literal zoo of different air defense systems, and of course many different chassis requiring different spare parts, trained mechanics, etc. If they can unify them at least in chassis it would be a big step forward. I'm of the opinion that the Strela-10 type can be eliminated entirely. Originally Shilka used radar, Strela-10 used IR. It made sense to have both. MANPADS provided the infantry with air defense means in a situation where other assets are unavailable. and of course Shilka was a gun system, Strela-10 was missile. But now as you right point out the Pantsyr has both missile and gun, radar and EO sensors. So it could replace the Strela-10 and Shilka/Tunguska. Leaving a next-gen MANPADS, and a brigade SAM (Morpheus) to replace the Tor/Osa. But I suspect lobbies, and desires of factories and KBs for orders will force the Sosna through anyway.

EDIT: An update on the staffing situation, the Russian Army has recruited 48 000 new contract soldiers this year so far, and total staffing is at 80.6% of proscribed. I.e. ~800 000 total. They're expected to get 7000 more before the end of the year. And they're continuing the policy of creating new units, a new SpetzNaz regiment, the 25th, was created in the North Caucus.

http://twower.livejournal.com/1117119.html

And a decision has been made on the AK-12. Deliveries will begin next year of both the 5.45 and 7.62 variants. New submachine guns, sniper rifles, and handguns are also planned. I suspect they're referring to the upgraded SVD variant, that's part of Ratnik.

http://lenta.ru/news/2013/09/17/newak/

 

[Knjaz]

Not quite.The current Motor-Rifle Brigades have two air-defense battalions. One is completely composed of Tor or Osa SAMs. The other is a composite. One battery consists of MANPADS, one consists of Strela-10 vehicles, and one consists of either Shilka or Tunguska systems. As it stands there are next-generation equivalents for all 4. If I understand correctly the replacement for the Tor is the Morpheus, for the Strela-10 it's the Sosna, for the Tunguska/Shilka it's the Pantsyr, and for the MANPADS it's another MANPADS.

From what I've read (few years ago, though, something could change during that time), Morpheus was supposed to be an ultra-short range (~5 km) "air-defense" system, main purpose of which would be to serve as a last layer of defense against incoming PGMs (that's why I put "air defence" in inverted commas). Hence, it's missiles were supposed to sustain extreme overloads (edit: due to their maneuverability and speeds), and the complex was supposed to engage alot of targets simultaneously.

 

[Feanor]

From what I've read (few years ago, though, something could change during that time), Morpheus was supposed to be an ultra-short range (~5 km) "air-defense" system, main purpose of which would be to serve as a last layer of defense against incoming PGMs (that's why I put "air defence" in inverted commas). Hence, it's missiles were supposed to sustain extreme overloads (edit: due to their maneuverability and speeds), and the complex was supposed to engage alot of targets simultaneously.

That's interesting and doesn't match up too well with information floating around right now. It also raises some interesting questions. What will replace the Tor? It's a questionable SAM for brigade level air defense to begin with. I suppose the Buk could replace the Tors and OSA in brigade-level air defense. A Buk-M3 certainly is under development with vertical launch containers for the missiles (similar to the S-300/350/400). If the Morpheus is what you describe, where does it fit in the TO&E for existing units?

EDIT: Meanwhile in preparation for Russian Arms Expo, this showed up.

http://s.66.ru/localStorage/collection/4f/5f/80/08/4f5f8008.jpg

It looks like an SP gun on the Bumerang chassis. Probably not meant for public show, but photos could end up leaked, or even "leaked".