Basically none. BTR-82 have slightly improved anti-mine resistance over BTR-80, iirc they have some internal padding to prevent the hull from forming fragments.
Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates
- Thread starter Jack Johnson
- Start date
Sorry for the late entry. Is it just me or does the new Kurganets line APC looks just like the Finnish Patria? Have Russia abandoned an evolution from their own BTR series design?
Also when can we expect to see the Kurganets prototype to be produced? It looks like they have already started to build the boomerang prototype and testing doesnt seem far away.
Eventhough the finnish patria design is very good, I think russia should have gone with an evolutionary design of the BTR series.
And I cant wait to see the Armata to reflect the model as it looks great.
Also when can we expect to see the Kurganets prototype to be produced? It looks like they have already started to build the boomerang prototype and testing doesnt seem far away.
Eventhough the finnish patria design is very good, I think russia should have gone with an evolutionary design of the BTR series.
And I cant wait to see the Armata to reflect the model as it looks great.
alexkvaskov
New Member
The Bumerang will most likely continue the BTR series design philosophy - it will be light, amphibious (as evidenced by the water jets) but "borrow" a Western style design along with improved IED protection. It's looking to be a mix of Russian and Western design approaches.
The Armata will be unveiled at the Russia Arms Expo 2013 in September.
alexkvaskov
New Member
It is known how many troops and equipment the SV in the Far East MD possess? I've come across ~900 tanks and 75-125 thousand men.
Kurganets is the medium tracked platform. It's not at all like the Patria. You're thinking of the Bumerang. In the picture you provided the vehicle on the right is the APC on the Kurganets platform. The vehicle on the right is the APC on the Bumerang platform.
Apparently both APCs and IFVs (as well as light tanks/mobile gun system) will be produced on both chassis.
It's not known, but you should consider a few things. The numbers of vehicles may or may not include the ones in storage. East MD has quite a few storage bases with Motor-Rifle Bde equipment. It also has quite a few units that aren't SV, but none the less would participate in any land-based conflict (namely the Marine Bde, and the Marine Rgt out of Kamchatka). Iirc warfare.ru has a pretty good summing up of the units located there, and their equipment.
So apparently Center MD will take delivery of 300 BTR-80A this year. Now I strongly suspect that's a typo or mistake, since the MoD doesn't buy the BTR-80A, but the BTR-82. The numbers are also very large. If this many are going to Center MD, that's pretty much all of them. Some BREM-K, or K1Sh1 based command vehicles may go elsewhere, but only in fairly small numbers. These numbers probably include rebuild hulls as well as new vehicles.
Lenta.ru:
They're also getting 1500 new trucks, of the Kamaz Mustang and Ural Motovoz families. This is quite appropriate, given that the 2012 GABTU report said that 29% of the vehicle park consisted of modern vehicles (up from 6% in 2005).
What this means is that South MD is completely or nearly complete re-armed in the BTR department. South MD was the highest priority for the last 4 years, and the fact that serial deliveries of ground troops equipment are going elsewhere means that it's nearly saturated with new gear.
Also, in 2014 the new inflatable vehicle balloons will begin delivery to line engineer units (I suspect Engineer Bdes, though line MRBdes may get some too). They're the ones equipped with heaters to mimic the thermal signature of the vehicles they're supposed to represent. A few were tested in engineer units over the last couple of years, and it looks like they've passed experimental exploitation. I wonder if Nakidka, which is a thermal shroud, and entered experimental exploitation around the same time, will finally be accepted for service too.
Lenta.ru:
Also, apparently something like 30 different vehicles are planned on the Armata platform. That I know of, they need:
MBT
BMPT/heavy support vehicle
IFV
APC
ARV (BREM)
SP Arty
Heavy Flamethrower (TOS-1)
Loader for flamethrower
BMO-T (unless it's the same as the APC)
Bridge-Layer
Heavy SAM chassis (for S-300V, and possibly for the Pantsyr-1)
Mine Clearer (BMR-3 replacement)
Engineers vehicle (IMR-2 replacement)
Command vehicle (MT-LB replacement, for heavy Bdes)
SP ATGM carrier (possibly an AT btln in heavy brigades if they replace Motor-Rifles)
But that doesn't even come close to 30, which makes me wonder what the hell else they plan to use it for. And for some of those vehicles it wouldn't even make much sense. Current generation TOS-1, loaders for them, and BMO-T, have only started deliveries a short while ago. Replacing them so soon doesn't make sense. Granted, they could wait until later in the re-armament cycle, but still. It's quite a long ways off. Same with the BMR-3, which is in production right now. The BMO-T and H-APC may end up being the same thing given that the current BMO-T is just an APC on the T-72B chassis. They could end up mounting brigade level MLRS on the Armata chassis for the sake of unification (Tornado-G modules) but it wouldn't make much sense. It's not like heavy brigades can get by without any wheeled trucks...
http://twower.livejournal.com/1000281.html
Also apparently they're negotiation T-90MS purchases right now, which makes me wonder. It's too late to include them in this years plan, and the Armata is supposedly on track for serial production in 2015, which means that only in 2014, possibly early 2015, would it make any sense to buy the T-90MS, and even then fairly little. On the other hand the Armata could easily end up delayed. After all its public debut was supposed to be the arms show this September, but that was cancelled citing reasons of secrecy. More likely is that they simply don't have a finalized prototype ready to be shown to the public, meaning the project could end up delayed as far as 2017, or even later, before experimental exploitation even begins. In that context the bulk of Armata production would have to come post 2020, and T-90MS purchases meanwhile would make sense.
Lenta.ru:
They're also getting 1500 new trucks, of the Kamaz Mustang and Ural Motovoz families. This is quite appropriate, given that the 2012 GABTU report said that 29% of the vehicle park consisted of modern vehicles (up from 6% in 2005).
What this means is that South MD is completely or nearly complete re-armed in the BTR department. South MD was the highest priority for the last 4 years, and the fact that serial deliveries of ground troops equipment are going elsewhere means that it's nearly saturated with new gear.
Also, in 2014 the new inflatable vehicle balloons will begin delivery to line engineer units (I suspect Engineer Bdes, though line MRBdes may get some too). They're the ones equipped with heaters to mimic the thermal signature of the vehicles they're supposed to represent. A few were tested in engineer units over the last couple of years, and it looks like they've passed experimental exploitation. I wonder if Nakidka, which is a thermal shroud, and entered experimental exploitation around the same time, will finally be accepted for service too.
Lenta.ru:
Also, apparently something like 30 different vehicles are planned on the Armata platform. That I know of, they need:
MBT
BMPT/heavy support vehicle
IFV
APC
ARV (BREM)
SP Arty
Heavy Flamethrower (TOS-1)
Loader for flamethrower
BMO-T (unless it's the same as the APC)
Bridge-Layer
Heavy SAM chassis (for S-300V, and possibly for the Pantsyr-1)
Mine Clearer (BMR-3 replacement)
Engineers vehicle (IMR-2 replacement)
Command vehicle (MT-LB replacement, for heavy Bdes)
SP ATGM carrier (possibly an AT btln in heavy brigades if they replace Motor-Rifles)
But that doesn't even come close to 30, which makes me wonder what the hell else they plan to use it for. And for some of those vehicles it wouldn't even make much sense. Current generation TOS-1, loaders for them, and BMO-T, have only started deliveries a short while ago. Replacing them so soon doesn't make sense. Granted, they could wait until later in the re-armament cycle, but still. It's quite a long ways off. Same with the BMR-3, which is in production right now. The BMO-T and H-APC may end up being the same thing given that the current BMO-T is just an APC on the T-72B chassis. They could end up mounting brigade level MLRS on the Armata chassis for the sake of unification (Tornado-G modules) but it wouldn't make much sense. It's not like heavy brigades can get by without any wheeled trucks...
http://twower.livejournal.com/1000281.html
Also apparently they're negotiation T-90MS purchases right now, which makes me wonder. It's too late to include them in this years plan, and the Armata is supposedly on track for serial production in 2015, which means that only in 2014, possibly early 2015, would it make any sense to buy the T-90MS, and even then fairly little. On the other hand the Armata could easily end up delayed. After all its public debut was supposed to be the arms show this September, but that was cancelled citing reasons of secrecy. More likely is that they simply don't have a finalized prototype ready to be shown to the public, meaning the project could end up delayed as far as 2017, or even later, before experimental exploitation even begins. In that context the bulk of Armata production would have to come post 2020, and T-90MS purchases meanwhile would make sense.
alexkvaskov
New Member
Is it known how many cargo and logistics trucks the SV possess in total?
I don't know. The only number I've seen was from GABTU, and it said there are a total 419 000 trucks currently in the armed forces. Now these numbers include tens of thousands in storage awaiting utilization, and tens of thousands in mobilization storage bases. I'm also not sure if these numbers include specialized transporters like the chassis for missile complexes (both coastal AShMs, and ballistic), or trucks used as MLRS chassis, etc.).
Also there was a question about contract soldiers. Last year East MD Military Commissariats recruited 1200 contract soldiers. This year the plan is 11 000, and so far this year they've got over 1200 that have been recruited, out of which 1000 are already serving. The reason they cite for such low numbers last year is that the recruiting points only opened in July. But I think the real reason is the cumbersome process, and military bureaucracy. It's entirely possible that many of the ones they count as this year's were last year's, whose paperwork took longer.
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Ðекоторые промежуточные итоги набора контрактников.
Also a few interesting pics of Iveco and Kamaz Tayfun.
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ -
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Превью
the road runner
Active Member
Just curios as to this new Orsis bolt action rifle replacing SVD Draganov rifles.They seem to be making them in .308W , .300Win Mag and .338Lapua cartridge.
Would these rifles replace Sako TRG rifles that are in service with some special forces units?
1 Inch groups at 1000M? You have to be kidding right :crazy
Would these rifles replace Sako TRG rifles that are in service with some special forces units?
1 Inch groups at 1000M? You have to be kidding right :crazy
They may or may not. They're not current in service, and as far as I know they haven't even been offered for state trials (which they would have to go through, along with a period of experimental exploitation prior to any serial deliveries). As it stands the SVD will be replaced by an upgraded SVD, as the designated marksman rifle. Actual sniper units will continue to receive imported sniper rifles on the .308 round for the time being.
Also, an update on the Armata, apparently the delay in the program and the reason it won't be appearing to the public in September is due to a problem with the optics. UVZ is currently considering using Belorussian optics from Peleng, which is also the manufacturer of the optics for the T-90S. However the Armata will be shown in the September at the closed part of the arms expo, to high ranking officials both in the civilian government and the military. The display will be purely static, no movement or fire, which means that the model on display may not even be a prototype but simply a mockup.
Gur Khan attacks!:
Also the Russian special operations command has completed formation, and construction of a new center for them has begun at Kubinka-2 (a satellite village of Kubinka iirc). The command includes MoD forces. FSB, MVD, FSO, FSKN, and others. What this means in practice I'm not sure since the MoD already has a special operations command called the GRU. The other agencies each have differing areas of responsibility, and why they would be under a single command I don't know.
Lenta.ru:
EDIT: The VDV conducted the first ever live-fire using guided arty shells (Kitolov-2) for the 2S9 Nona. The Nona was upgraded recently, and new command and control posts along with new electronics for it were installed and produced. They showed good results even with unguided munitions (reducing time it takes to perform fire on a target, and improving accuracy). This is in continuing with the tendency of the VDV to be an innovator when it comes to tactical improvements and modernization.
http://lenta.ru/news/2013/03/22/kitolov/
There is a Kitolov-2M shell which could be used by the 2S1 systems in service with the land forces, and the regular Kitolov-2 can be used by the new 2S34 Hosta. I wonder if the Land Forces will also acquire the Kitolov. There's also the 2S23 Nona-SVK, which is the Nona combat module on the BTR-80 chassis, and it's in use with the Marines, and some Land Forces units. They would benefit considerably from the guided shells.
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Again, new BTR chassis, not BMP. Anyways. Yes.
Also, apparently they met their ~50 000 contract soldiers goal, with some delay. Last year they had ~180 000, now they have ~240 000. If they can keep this up, they can get total numbers up to 1 million men, like planned.
Also, the Coalition-SV wheeled carrier will be a Kamaz-6560 8X8. It will not be a modular Kamaz Tayfun variant. The OKR is Coalition-SV-KSh.
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - КоалициÑ
Some interesting photos, from the Pacific Fleet press service, on exercises in the 5th Army, East MD. Its looks like a MRB on MTLBs and T-80s, a Rocket-Arty Bde, and helos from Chernigovka Air Base. I wonder who owns the D-30s? I thought the VDV was their only operator.
The mortars are 2S12 Sani mortars, btln level (120mm). The 2S3 and the Grads probably belong to the MRB organically (current force orgs have 2 btlns of 152mm in an MRB, as well as one MLRS btln). Su-25SMs also took part in the exercises, but they're not shown there.
Kamaz is still trying to make something of their Vystrel armor car. So far it has been a complete flop, with ~150-160 delivered to a whole slew of operators including the Land Forces, Strategic Missile Forces, Ministry of Interior, FSIN, and even Kazakhstan. They've gotten less then positive responses everywhere, and even the upgraded Vystrel variant has not been successful. Now it looks like they're developing an even further along variant, possibly a light MRAP, given the V-hull. I wonder if this means they've given up on the 4X4 Tayfun variant.
http://twower.livejournal.com/1020264.html
Also the first enlisted class of UAV operators has just graduated. They've mastered use of the primitive Grusha UAV. This is not surprising. The Grusha has been the most massively bought and delivered UAV, being common enough that even line Motor-Rifle Brigades have gotten some, primarily for their recon btlns.
http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/31468/
Also, apparently they met their ~50 000 contract soldiers goal, with some delay. Last year they had ~180 000, now they have ~240 000. If they can keep this up, they can get total numbers up to 1 million men, like planned.
Also, the Coalition-SV wheeled carrier will be a Kamaz-6560 8X8. It will not be a modular Kamaz Tayfun variant. The OKR is Coalition-SV-KSh.
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - КоалициÑ
Some interesting photos, from the Pacific Fleet press service, on exercises in the 5th Army, East MD. Its looks like a MRB on MTLBs and T-80s, a Rocket-Arty Bde, and helos from Chernigovka Air Base. I wonder who owns the D-30s? I thought the VDV was their only operator.
The mortars are 2S12 Sani mortars, btln level (120mm). The 2S3 and the Grads probably belong to the MRB organically (current force orgs have 2 btlns of 152mm in an MRB, as well as one MLRS btln). Su-25SMs also took part in the exercises, but they're not shown there.
Kamaz is still trying to make something of their Vystrel armor car. So far it has been a complete flop, with ~150-160 delivered to a whole slew of operators including the Land Forces, Strategic Missile Forces, Ministry of Interior, FSIN, and even Kazakhstan. They've gotten less then positive responses everywhere, and even the upgraded Vystrel variant has not been successful. Now it looks like they're developing an even further along variant, possibly a light MRAP, given the V-hull. I wonder if this means they've given up on the 4X4 Tayfun variant.
http://twower.livejournal.com/1020264.html
Also the first enlisted class of UAV operators has just graduated. They've mastered use of the primitive Grusha UAV. This is not surprising. The Grusha has been the most massively bought and delivered UAV, being common enough that even line Motor-Rifle Brigades have gotten some, primarily for their recon btlns.
http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/31468/
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alexkvaskov
New Member
Some interesting news. The MoD is close to signing a contract with the Kurgan Machine Building Plant for the repair and modernization of some 3000 BMP-2s. The IFVs are to be disassembled, repaired, defective components replaced. The upgrade is to include digital "control systems" (they probably mean FCS) and new radios. Also it's thought that the upgraded vehicles will be equipped with bits and pieces from the new tactical C2 system. The cost of upgrading one vehicle is some $340,000.
Ìîäåðíèçèðîâàííûå ÁÌÏ-2 ñòàíóò öèôðîâûìè
The anonymity of the source - "a source in the MoD" and the fact that Izvestia are sited gives me pause. In any case, it's highly likely that they've decided to proceed with BMP upgrades in light of uncertainties around the next generation IFV. As well, the planned time frame for the upgrade, 600-1000 vehicles a year over 3-5 years seems overly optimistic. Eight-nine years would be more realistic. Personally, I hope the upgrade includes modern thermals and improved IED protection, although that's doubtful, given the very low price of the upgrade.
Ìîäåðíèçèðîâàííûå ÁÌÏ-2 ñòàíóò öèôðîâûìè
The anonymity of the source - "a source in the MoD" and the fact that Izvestia are sited gives me pause. In any case, it's highly likely that they've decided to proceed with BMP upgrades in light of uncertainties around the next generation IFV. As well, the planned time frame for the upgrade, 600-1000 vehicles a year over 3-5 years seems overly optimistic. Eight-nine years would be more realistic. Personally, I hope the upgrade includes modern thermals and improved IED protection, although that's doubtful, given the very low price of the upgrade.
I think it's supposed to be the installation of the Sozvezdie-2M along with new comms. They do not mean a new FCS, they mean a new C4I system. There is no upgrade to the protection levels planned. I suspect they want to get a head start on using Sozvezdie. The upgrade of ~140 vehicles was already performed. This upgrade involves an overhaul and modernization with the new comms, and Sozvezdie.
Also VZ, and lenta ran the story too, but they're both citing Izvestiya. They claim a contract will be signed in the fall. If a contract materializes, it will be big news and hopefully CAST will talk about it.
Lenta.ru:
Zakupki.gov currently has a contract on it for upgrade and overhaul of 145 vehicles.
Also a look to some Kamaz alternatives to the Tayfun family.
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Про "Медведей"
Also VZ, and lenta ran the story too, but they're both citing Izvestiya. They claim a contract will be signed in the fall. If a contract materializes, it will be big news and hopefully CAST will talk about it.
Lenta.ru:
Zakupki.gov currently has a contract on it for upgrade and overhaul of 145 vehicles.
Also a look to some Kamaz alternatives to the Tayfun family.
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Про "Медведей"
There are 2 variations of the Kamaz Tayfun. Is there a decision on the general layout yet?
No. And I'm not sure which variant will be purchased as part of the trial defense order. There is an order for 30 Tayfun-K and 30 Tayfun-U. But as it stands the Tayfun-U only exists in one variant, the single body design, with the drivers compartment connected to the rest of the vehicle. Tayfun-K exists in two variants: modular and single body. The single body one was spotted being tested by some MoD body, but it's not clear what the testing actually consisted of.
alexkvaskov
New Member
Looks like that's only the plan for this year, and they're still at ~190,000 contractees.
https://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/official-word-on-contract-service/
I wouldn't trust NVO info. They've posted outright garbage in the past. That having been said the particular conclusion is legitimate, as is the concern over the distribution (demographically) of the required contract soldiers.
I'll see if there's a good source available on total number of contract soldiers as of right now.
EDIT: MoD just started a tender to develop urban warfare kits for T-72 and T-90 tanks. Probably in response to what they see in Syria right now, with the vulnerability of these vehicles to current-gen AT weapons.
http://lenta.ru/news/2013/04/12/tank/
This is appropriate and timely (there's money for it right now) but it makes me wonder whether over-reliance on gear like this will detract from the infantry-tank combined approach to urban warfare.
I'll see if there's a good source available on total number of contract soldiers as of right now.
EDIT: MoD just started a tender to develop urban warfare kits for T-72 and T-90 tanks. Probably in response to what they see in Syria right now, with the vulnerability of these vehicles to current-gen AT weapons.
http://lenta.ru/news/2013/04/12/tank/
This is appropriate and timely (there's money for it right now) but it makes me wonder whether over-reliance on gear like this will detract from the infantry-tank combined approach to urban warfare.
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Wouldn't the terminator be a far superior all around weapon system for urban warfare? Why would you need at 100+ mm gun in a city?
Because lobbing a big HE shell is a highly effective way of dealing with a house full of dudes with RPGs and machine guns, would be my guess.
There's gonna be potential for substantial collateral damage, sure, but if you're rolling in with tanks you're probably at the point where you've already accepted that...