Brazilian Naval Strength

[Spacearrow99]

I'd like to think it's quite good, recently I linked an article where it talks about a team of Brazilian engineers being a part of BAE's design team, so they've had either input or just experience about the actual design of the ship and probably will have or have been involved in the modular nature of the ship, the construction and assembly of the blocks when building the ship.

That's my guess, anyway. Can't say I've heard much on French FREMM involvement, from an Italian perspective, a while ago the author of UKAFC was tweeting about publications that Italy has dropped (or will drop) trying to sell frigates to Brazil.

I'd like to think that they think they've got a good deal with the OPV's (as much as a steal as they were) and the following license agreement that they're keen to work with BAE more.

But in general, i've heard more positive noises about the Type 26 than FREMM even though FREMM exists right now.

Brazil's first PROSUPER surface fleet program, focuses on the acquisition of five frigates, five offshore patrol vessels and oil-tanker. The Brazilian Submarine PROSUB programme has been flawless at this point so I would count out DCNS for any Brazilian Navy contract.

 

[RobWilliams]

Brazil's first PROSUPER surface fleet program, focuses on the acquisition of five frigates, five offshore patrol vessels and oil-tanker. The Brazilian Submarine PROSUB programme has been flawless at this point so I would count out DCNS for any Brazilian Navy contract.

Only 5 frigates? The OPV deal for sure is 3 from BAE 'possibly' + licence build of 5 more, that's the line thrown around.

Hmm, seemed a bit less ambitious than I thought.

But yeah, I thought considering how well they're getting on with DCNS vis-a-vis SSK's & SN-Br that it could count in DCNS' favour in another tender for the surface fleet.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Only 5 frigates? The OPV deal for sure is 3 from BAE 'possibly' + licence build of 5 more, that's the line thrown around.

Hmm, seemed a bit less ambitious than I thought.

But yeah, I thought considering how well they're getting on with DCNS vis-a-vis SSK's & SN-Br that it could count in DCNS' favour in another tender for the surface fleet.

I think this just the first installment of PROSUPER surface fleet program. The program was scheduled to be launched this year. They are giving the Type 26 a very good lookover before deciding on a contractor.

 

[swerve]

When the Brazilian new frigate programme was first mooted, I assumed that Type 26 would be too late for the party, & FREMM was in pole position, with others (e.g. MEKO) being its competition. The delays (which I should have foreseen), have changed things, & I'd now say Type 26 is in with a chance. My gut feeling is still that FREMM is favourite, though I'd not bet on whether French or Italian. The Italian base model is more capable of meeting the Brazilian fleet air defence needs than the French base model, but DCNS has improved its offering in that respect.

 

[StobieWan]

I think there's a couple of things about Type 26 that help it's position - it's a design in motion, so Brazil can pitch in and say "more salt, hold the anchovies" or whatever when they're considering it, whereas FREMM appears to be "you can have one of these" more or less.

It's also pre-configured for US weapons if desired so they could plug in Mk41 or whatever. I don't know how flexible the config is on either FREMM though.


The other thing that might help swing things a little is positive experiences with us over recent and past purchases. We'll see.

I'd be pretty excited if they did pick up Type 26..

 

[RobWilliams]

When the Brazilian new frigate programme was first mooted, I assumed that Type 26 would be too late for the party, & FREMM was in pole position, with others (e.g. MEKO) being its competition. The delays (which I should have foreseen), have changed things, & I'd now say Type 26 is in with a chance. My gut feeling is still that FREMM is favourite, though I'd not bet on whether French or Italian. The Italian base model is more capable of meeting the Brazilian fleet air defence needs than the French base model, but DCNS has improved its offering in that respect.

Indeed, the standard Italian FREMM appears to be more effective than the French FRMM in AAW, but now the rub comes from DCNS offering FREMM-ER which has ditched Herakles for a multi function phased array radar with 4 stationary panels, but the question is do they want that OR do they want an idential fleet of Italian models..

 

[Spacearrow99]

I think there's a couple of things about Type 26 that help it's position - it's a design in motion, so Brazil can pitch in and say "more salt, hold the anchovies" or whatever when they're considering it, whereas FREMM appears to be "you can have one of these" more or less.

It's also pre-configured for US weapons if desired so they could plug in Mk41 or whatever. I don't know how flexible the config is on either FREMM though.


The other thing that might help swing things a little is positive experiences with us over recent and past purchases. We'll see.

I'd be pretty excited if they did pick up Type 26..

DCNS Lorient Shipyard Visit and FREMM Frigates Program Update with Vincent Martinot-Lagarde

 

[justsomeaussie]

Looks like CEAFAR is being offered to the Brazilians as an alternative to AEGIS on the F110

Google Translate

 

[RobWilliams]

That's a bit of a curveball, the F-100/Aegis was a given (although this is the first i've heard about Navantia pushing for the Brazilian Navy) but CEAFAR is an interesting choice.

Interesting, but not the only competitor to offer such a capability. BAE have several times advertised that the Type 26 mast can handle all the gubbins involved with CEAFAR, it was primarily for Australia but if Navantia is pushing for it then BAE can too if they want.

 

[StobieWan]

CEAFAR makes plenty of sense for a frigate armament - ESSM in the mix, job's a good 'un. I think you can probably specify Type 26 with DRADUS or HS2 if you'll buy one - the team seem awfully keen to be accommodating.

F100 with CEAFAR would be pretty solid - bigger than the Anzacs but as capable in terms of self defence. And probably a lot more saturation proof than a ship carrying SPY-1D with two illuminators. I wonder if the Spanish will switch to CEAMOUNT illuminators in time ? <OT!>

Either way, it does underline how dated ARTISAN will look by the time Type 26 finishes production.

 

[Volkodav]

CEAFAR makes plenty of sense for a frigate armament - ESSM in the mix, job's a good 'un. I think you can probably specify Type 26 with DRADUS or HS2 if you'll buy one - the team seem awfully keen to be accommodating.

F100 with CEAFAR would be pretty solid - bigger than the Anzacs but as capable in terms of self defence. And probably a lot more saturation proof than a ship carrying SPY-1D with two illuminators. I wonder if the Spanish will switch to CEAMOUNT illuminators in time ? <OT!>

Either way, it does underline how dated ARTISAN will look by the time Type 26 finishes production.

Well the CAE radars are scalable and if you retain the core AEGIS system just replacing the SPY panels and illuminators while incorporating SM6 in addition to ESSM you would have a very capable ship. I wonder if this offer has anything to do with the rumoured preliminary work Navantia have been funded to do looking to compete to replace the RANs ANZACs with either an evolved F100 or a derivative of the F110.

 

[justsomeaussie]

Well the CEA radars are scalable and if you retain the core AEGIS system just replacing the SPY panels and illuminators while incorporating SM6 in addition to ESSM you would have a very capable ship. I wonder if this offer has anything to do with the rumoured preliminary work Navantia have been funded to do looking to compete to replace the RANs ANZACs with either an evolved F100 or a derivative of the F110.

I'm not sure how exactly that would work. CEAFAR has been designed to work with Saab's 9lv CMS, would be a lot of risky work trying to plug anything into AEGIS even if you could get the TAA. More likely I think it would be a complete CMS with CEAFAR and CEAMOUNT.

 

[Volkodav]

I'm not sure how exactly that would work. CEAFAR has been designed to work with Saab's 9lv CMS, would be a lot of risky work trying to plug anything into AEGIS even if you could get the TAA. More likely I think it would be a complete CMS with CEAFAR and CEAMOUNT.

The AWD has been designed with an Australian combat system that interfaces between the base AEGIS system and non AEGIS elements to permit the integration of new non AEGIS systems as required.

 

[AegisFC]

I'm not sure how exactly that would work. CEAFAR has been designed to work with Saab's 9lv CMS, would be a lot of risky work trying to plug anything into AEGIS even if you could get the TAA. More likely I think it would be a complete CMS with CEAFAR and CEAMOUNT.

Not as hard as or as risky as you'd think, especially with the newer open architecture versions of Aegis.

 

[Systems Adict]

Only 5 frigates? The OPV deal for sure is 3 from BAE 'possibly' + licence build of 5 more, that's the line thrown around.

Hmm, seemed a bit less ambitious than I thought.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_Ship"]Global Combat Ship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[url=http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/britains-future-frigates-06268/]Britain’s Future Frigates: Type 26 & 27 Global Combat Ships[/URL]

If you scroll down the 2nd article (to Feb 2011), it references 6 OPV's & 5-6 frigates. Their assumption is that these will be T26, rather than old T23's.

From this, it's supposition, but no doubt fair to say that with the oil money & associated prosperity, it's likely that Brazil is probably looking to replace it's ageing surface fleet, to help protect it's EEZ & coastline.

Is it any wonder that they are looking into every major Naval shipbuilding project in Europe?

Given the right terms, including partnership deals / in-country technology transfers, & the like, THEY have the 'carrot' (Financial Capability to fund such things), to dangle over everyone.

ANYONE who was to ignore this opportunity would be foolish....


SA

 

[StobieWan]

Absolutely - from a Brazillian position, there's no harm in getting anyone to quote - in fact, you'd be dim to *not* get at least the major US and European bidders in on it.

They've got money - no-one else in Europe has

 

[KiwiRob]

They've got money - no-one else in Europe has

Really, Norway has, they just don't need them.

 

[StobieWan]

Really, Norway has, they just don't need them.

I was sort of thinking "need frigates and can afford them" I suppose

 

[RobWilliams]

From this, it's supposition, but no doubt fair to say that with the oil money & associated prosperity, it's likely that Brazil is probably looking to replace it's ageing surface fleet, to help protect it's EEZ & coastline.

It's not supposition, IIRC they've come out and said that this is primarily for protecting offshore reserves.

Is it any wonder that they are looking into every major Naval shipbuilding project in Europe?

Given the right terms, including partnership deals / in-country technology transfers, & the like, THEY have the 'carrot' (Financial Capability to fund such things), to dangle over everyone.

ANYONE who was to ignore this opportunity would be foolish....

Indeed, I never said they shouldn't either. What I did say was that for the sort of noises you hear about becoming a "global power" and all that seems to throw me a bit when I read 5 frigates.

Baby steps probably, could easily be a "ok it's 5 now, but we'll decide how many WE want to build at a later date" or something like that. Certainly if they've got dreams of operating a carrier in the future AND protect their massive coastline + however many miles their resources/EEZ covers, they'd probably need more than 5 IMO.

 

[StobieWan]

There's an old joke that Brazil will become the next world super power in twenty years - and they've been saying that for sixty years now..


Brazil has a youthful and energetic population, a society riddled with corruption and division. They will have some challenges to face in the coming decades but I'm sure they'll face all of those with equanimity.

If they intend to field a carrier and escort said carrier, they'll need more than five frigates for sure. And in one sense, the decision over their choice of carrier will drive what frigates they select.