Its politics... the spin becomes the story.
Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates
protoplasm
Active Member
Necromania is a very scary thing, particularly when it is given voice in a public forum
Without speaking for anyone else I would not call it love, per se, but a deep understanding.
I understand what the F-35 is supposed to be, a 5th gen replacement for the F-16/F-18/AV-8B/etc.
I understand that all modern fighters take a long time to develop, especially in these fiscal times. The F-22, Rafale, and Eurofighter all took as long or longer to develop the same capabilities (multi-role) as the F-35.
I understand that no fighter is going to be developed without problems out the door.
I understand that the US is the most open society when it comes to oversight and that a comparison of F-35 issues to others is not an fair comparison since we never hear of their problems to the level of scrutiny that the F-35 is under.
I understand that roughly half the time & money problems so far are due to LM and the other half the DoD.
I understand that by walking away from the Concurrency plan, BOB blew the schedule, cost us a lot of International good will, and cost us jobs at home.
I understand that most of the issues that the F-35 has are short-term engineering issues that have already been or will be resolved.
I understand that pie-in-the-sky solutions like UCAVs are nowhere near the ability needed to replace the F-35.
I understand that nothing you do to a 4th gen asset will bring it to the level of capability & survival as the F-35.
Lastly, I understand what potential the F-35 has when it comes to missions, upgrades, and capability.
I understand what the F-35 is supposed to be, a 5th gen replacement for the F-16/F-18/AV-8B/etc.
I understand that all modern fighters take a long time to develop, especially in these fiscal times. The F-22, Rafale, and Eurofighter all took as long or longer to develop the same capabilities (multi-role) as the F-35.
I understand that no fighter is going to be developed without problems out the door.
I understand that the US is the most open society when it comes to oversight and that a comparison of F-35 issues to others is not an fair comparison since we never hear of their problems to the level of scrutiny that the F-35 is under.
I understand that roughly half the time & money problems so far are due to LM and the other half the DoD.
I understand that by walking away from the Concurrency plan, BOB blew the schedule, cost us a lot of International good will, and cost us jobs at home.
I understand that most of the issues that the F-35 has are short-term engineering issues that have already been or will be resolved.
I understand that pie-in-the-sky solutions like UCAVs are nowhere near the ability needed to replace the F-35.
I understand that nothing you do to a 4th gen asset will bring it to the level of capability & survival as the F-35.
Lastly, I understand what potential the F-35 has when it comes to missions, upgrades, and capability.
King Wally
Active Member
This is probably going to highlight my Noobishness regarding defence procurement....
.... but how exactly does a price get agree'd apon for each batch of F-35's we order? Would the Aussie DoD request a quote and LM just say "thats 6 billion thank you very much" and we say "sure heres a big fat cheque". Or is it a negotiation process where we gather example quotes from rivals such as EuroFighter or SuperHornet and say "come on LM your twice the price and Im under budget pressures, you have a month to narrow the price OR include some future incentives to sweeten the deal" and we sweat the buggers to wring a little extra out of the budget?
The lack of inviting rivals to tender (while I agree their offers were inferior) seams to not assist our leverage at the price table. Perhaps I have this ALL wrong and the F-35 program partners ALL get the same unit price universally and that for equalities sake there is no individual price talks? Its a simple take it or leave it offer for everyone?
.... but how exactly does a price get agree'd apon for each batch of F-35's we order? Would the Aussie DoD request a quote and LM just say "thats 6 billion thank you very much" and we say "sure heres a big fat cheque". Or is it a negotiation process where we gather example quotes from rivals such as EuroFighter or SuperHornet and say "come on LM your twice the price and Im under budget pressures, you have a month to narrow the price OR include some future incentives to sweeten the deal" and we sweat the buggers to wring a little extra out of the budget?
The lack of inviting rivals to tender (while I agree their offers were inferior) seams to not assist our leverage at the price table. Perhaps I have this ALL wrong and the F-35 program partners ALL get the same unit price universally and that for equalities sake there is no individual price talks? Its a simple take it or leave it offer for everyone?
The most important thing to understand is the purchasing process is nothing like anything you do in your normal day to day life. It isn’t like buying a car or haggling over the price of vegetables at the fruit market.
In a program like the F-35, which Australia is a partner to, the price of each production lot is determined by how much it cost to actually build that lot. There is a lot of negotiating over specifics and the processes used to determine that price but the customer is also the manager of the project and has an awful lot of visibility. Lockheed don’t own the F-35 or even the factory it is built in this is all owned by the US Government.
King Wally
Active Member
Thank you for the insight. In essence we are creating our own product not purchasing it from an external company. LM just happens to be the contractor we employ to do the dirty work I guess.
Well that certainly answers my concerns regarding the lack of a tender process. Given the clear lack of comparable alternatives next to the F-35 and given there apears to be little bargaining power to gain I can see why the gov would bypass it now. It still concerns me but I can see it from a different perspective at least.
By the way in risk of diverging to a whole another topic (Im pondering the question of Alternatives) does anyone know the real reason why the USA pulled the pin on the production of F-22's? They hit around 200 units by all accounts closed the factory a couple years ago. Disregarding the export ban situation it apeared to be a good 5th gen fighter and yet their own country seamed to walked away from them? Price Blowouts + Budget Crisis + Inherrant Flaws they are keeping quiet?
There were a few sustainment and upgrade issues with the F-22s that haven't been kept entirely quiet, some googling around should be able to find you some basic info on the topic. Essentially it's a very, very difficult aircraft to upgrade and the fleet has ended up with (if I remember correctly) something like 3 different "versions" with varying degrees of additional capability. Remember the program for the F-22 started all the way back in 1985 so as technology advanced there was quite a lot in the original specs that didn't necessarily fit what would have been an "optimal" platform.
As a straightforward example, it's interesting to note the F-22 has not had the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System integrated with it... a lack of helmet mounted sight seems unusual on an aircraft so advanced, does it not? Particularly as several 4th generation fighter types already operate this same system. Another example is that while the F-22 can carry an air to ground loadout, this is limited to GPS-guided munitions as it lacks the systems necessary to designate targets itself, and thus also lacks the ability to hit a moving target on the ground, too (again, working from memory here, and would welcome corrections).
In addition the datalinking capability of the F-22 is quite limited compared to some other 4th-4.5th generation aircraft, as it was originally intended to only share information amongst other F-22s (again this is from memory, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong). There were plans to integrate the datalink from the F-35 into the F-22 fleet but I'm unsure if these plans have been put into effect, or even funded.
The price I'm sure was also a part of it but I think there's been several lessons learned with the F-22 that are going into the F-35 going forward in order to avoid the same problems.
Have a look around the net, there were a few links posted on the forums quite a long time ago but damned if I can remember where they were... hope that gives some idea as to the issues. Others may be able to provide more/better info, but the topic is rather a sensitive one for some. It's still an extremely formidable aircraft, but it's certainly not without its flaws, they're just not frequently mentioned because they don't necessarily involve the physical performance parameters, which is what gets a lot of attention in the media.
As a straightforward example, it's interesting to note the F-22 has not had the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System integrated with it... a lack of helmet mounted sight seems unusual on an aircraft so advanced, does it not? Particularly as several 4th generation fighter types already operate this same system. Another example is that while the F-22 can carry an air to ground loadout, this is limited to GPS-guided munitions as it lacks the systems necessary to designate targets itself, and thus also lacks the ability to hit a moving target on the ground, too (again, working from memory here, and would welcome corrections).
In addition the datalinking capability of the F-22 is quite limited compared to some other 4th-4.5th generation aircraft, as it was originally intended to only share information amongst other F-22s (again this is from memory, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong). There were plans to integrate the datalink from the F-35 into the F-22 fleet but I'm unsure if these plans have been put into effect, or even funded.
The price I'm sure was also a part of it but I think there's been several lessons learned with the F-22 that are going into the F-35 going forward in order to avoid the same problems.
Have a look around the net, there were a few links posted on the forums quite a long time ago but damned if I can remember where they were... hope that gives some idea as to the issues. Others may be able to provide more/better info, but the topic is rather a sensitive one for some. It's still an extremely formidable aircraft, but it's certainly not without its flaws, they're just not frequently mentioned because they don't necessarily involve the physical performance parameters, which is what gets a lot of attention in the media.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #3,669
Without going into it too much (this is the RAAF thread after all) part of the issue was cost, and part of it was the potential for future growth.
The F-22 is basically an air superiority fighter, with some limited strike/attack capability. It does not have integrated targeting pods and some of the EO sensors which are built into the F-35.
Such kit could potentially be mounted onto the F-22, but likely as external ordnance (increasing drag and decreasing the effectiveness of some F-22 LO features), or with potentially significant modification built into the aircraft itself like is being done with the F-35.
Further, at some early point in the F-35 programme, a decision was made to change which programming language the software was written in. IIRC the change was from ADA to C++, with the object being to simplify future software/avionics upgrades.
The F-22 was written in the older system, and without some of the other work done to easy future upgrades. As it is, all current F-22's are supposed to undergo modification up to the F-22 3.2 build standard since they varied during construction and doing so would make older F-22's somewhat more capable and certainly standardize the fleet. However, in terms of avionics the F-22 still largely falls short of what the F-35 can do, and with the F-35 design work undertaken to ease upgrades, that gap should increase as time progresses.
I suppose the fastest, easiest way to explain it would be that most mission sets for the F-22 could also be completed by the F-35, with the F-35 projected to have lower through-life costs.
-Cheers
Australias AA defences
Hi Crew, new to posting so hope I make sense.
I am concerned on the Australian defence forces lack of AA fire power, the army only has the RBS70, this thus rely s on our fast jets and navy to provide AA coverage.
Although unlikely but possible (911) what would cover Australia's major city's in the event of a terrorist attack or a rough missile launch?
Do we need a frigate or FFG in every city 24/7 to provide SM1-2 and ESSM coverage?
Compared to every other major city in the world Sydney and the rest of Australia's city's seem poorly defended in the AA role.
I would hate to see a Cessna take out the harbour bridge or opera house while an F18 pilot was still putting on his flying suite.
I am always thinking that in one way or another Garden Island has some protection for Sydney,against rouge air threats.
Cheers
Hi Crew, new to posting so hope I make sense.
I am concerned on the Australian defence forces lack of AA fire power, the army only has the RBS70, this thus rely s on our fast jets and navy to provide AA coverage.
Although unlikely but possible (911) what would cover Australia's major city's in the event of a terrorist attack or a rough missile launch?
Do we need a frigate or FFG in every city 24/7 to provide SM1-2 and ESSM coverage?
Compared to every other major city in the world Sydney and the rest of Australia's city's seem poorly defended in the AA role.
I would hate to see a Cessna take out the harbour bridge or opera house while an F18 pilot was still putting on his flying suite.
I am always thinking that in one way or another Garden Island has some protection for Sydney,against rouge air threats.
Cheers
There's 2 full squadrons of Hornets at Williamstown... Is that not enough?
If a jetliner diverts heading into Sydney airport from it's run in over the CBD, there will be no system on Earth that can stop it crashing into flames into the Sydney CBD and probably into a building.
We've got more than enough air defence capability to prevent such a threat so long as we are warned about it ahead of time.
The USA has more air defence capability than anywhere else in the entire world, most especially around Washington and they couldn't prevent such an attack.
If intell, law enforcement and security measures fail to stop such attacks, then nothing can, clearly.
This could probably also go in the RAAF thread too...
If you want the full story, I'd advise reading the thread.
To cut a long story short however, the RAAF has a limited budget, therefore it has to select within that budget the aircraft which gives it the best performance to meet the needs of Australia's defence policy.
The F-15E is an excellent aircraft but it is also extremely expensive, the Super Hornet cost something like half as much - a major consideration for a small force with a large area to cover as Australia has. The Super Hornet wasalso picked as an interim option for the RAAF in part for the advantages it has as a transitional model (LO tech etc.) from 4th to 5th generation. It was also immediately available thanks to the willingness of the USN to let Australia jump the queue in receiving airframes.
Ultimately, the Aussies would no doubt love to have an F-15Aus version available but with their funds and range of commitments it simply wasn't a viable option.
King Wally
Active Member
This throw away line was found at the bottom of a article today regarding a possible UAV buy for Australia.
$2bn Triton drone plan to track asylum boats off Australia | News.com.au
$2bn Triton drone plan to track asylum boats off Australia | News.com.au
I know we requested a quote for the 24 extra Supers. Anyone think this is going through or just a journalist getting ahead of himself? Theres certain flow on effects if this is to happen. The most obvious being a reduced F-35 buy in a few years.
King Wally
Active Member
Ok I beleive I have found the source of the story now.
Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence – Interview with Karina Carvalho, ABC News Breakfast
Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence – Interview with Karina Carvalho, ABC News Breakfast
The above interview from yesterday seams to have brought the topic back into the spot light with the ABC grabbing ahold of the 4 corners story and pushing for a response. What they got back was a strong lean toward an extra 24 Super Hornets. Not a decision but a good insight into their thinking.
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VerySneaky
New Member
Doesn't seem to be anything new since it's announcement a few months ago; a statement of intent to research options not a commitment to buy. Hard to tell if this is political posturing or a legitimate consideration though. From what GF has alluded to, it's hard to understand how the government could legitimately be considering this as an option given the advice I'm sure is being provided by defence to the DefMin.. Having said that though, it appears that the Growler acquisition was also not budgeted for so I suppose it's anybodies guess as to what is actually the case. As someone who hopes to fly these aircraft in the future, I sincerely hope they don't screw it up.
VS
To add to what you have written above, F-15 whilst extremely capable (but not that far behind the F/A-18 in some respects) is a design that dates from the 1960's. It is a 4th Gen to 4.5 gen airframe. Whatever we purchase will be serving in 30 years time whereupon the basic design would be close to 70 years old.
We have selected the F-35 as it represents the cutting edge of 5th gen tech - which should help to future proof the aircraft. No use in equipping our pilots with an airframe that would be sort of LO at best (if we chose the proposed not yet in service with anybody F-15 Silent Eagle), whereas our possible regional threats are developing or may purchase LO designs.
Minister Smith - "and at the end of last year, we placed a letter of request with the United States authorities to enable us to investigate the potential purchase of up to 24 more Super Hornets"
Often purchase announcements are made at Avalon Airshow.
I have absolutely no inside information - purely speculation.
Often purchase announcements are made at Avalon Airshow.
I have absolutely no inside information - purely speculation.