Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[Air Force Brat]

Undoubtedly a combination of available resources as well as numbers required to sustain a similar capability to what we had.

From recollection, the 10 C-27J fleet will be undertaking the tasking that 8 C-130H aircraft performed after the Bous were retired.

It does seem a strange figure given other RAAF airlift squadrons are 6 or 12 strong, but then we see Army buying 7 CH-47F Chinooks and RAAF bought 5 KC-30A, so the numbers in reality are all over the place and don't mean much.

I expect they buy the number of platforms that meets a minimum level of directed capability and fits within the allocated budget, though with some projects there's clearly scope or the flexibility to maximise the number of platforms or assets acquired.

An obvious example of this that sticks out is the advanced targetting pod capability acquired during the Hornet upgrade.

From recollection, choosing the Litening AT pod, allow us to acquire 41 targetting pods, whereas the Sniper XR pod, would have resulted in us only being able to acquire 32 pods or so (can't remember the exact figure, but it was quite a few less pods overall) and this was the major reason why we chose Litening AT for the HUG.

Both met our requirements, but Litening AT allowed us more capability overall within our budget.

I can recall as a lad being at the Squadron picnic, my Dad an IP in the 130 observing the Boo Boos landing, they had all the flaps down and were making assault style approaches, it would have been about 1966, before he went to Viet-Nam. Course I loved the Boo Boo, my Dad "not impressed". LOL

 

[weegee]

More Supers?

Hi guys,

Is there if any truth to the rumours that we could be getting more super's due to the perceived delays in the F35? Acording to the "leaked" white paper?

 

[John Newman]

Hi guys,

Is there if any truth to the rumours that we could be getting more super's due to the perceived delays in the F35? Acording to the "leaked" white paper?

Go back to page 240, post #3596, December 13th, you will see a link to the Def Min's statement.

The Government is investigating cost and availabilty of 24 Shornets, but no decision until this year sometime, probably be around Budget / White Paper time, anyway have a read of it.

 

[weegee]

Lazy Australian Journalism

This morning I watched the 4 corners presentation on the F35 what a joke! It makes me mad when main stream media do things like this and make such a mess out of it (obviously using their own agenda).
The general public will see this and see the so called experts (clown club) on there and they will say yes we are getting ripped off! This government is letting us down look what they have stuffed up now etc etc! we don't want to pay 35 Billion for planes when we can get them for 4-5 billion from Jo Plane builder down the road, presentations like this fail to acknowledge the total through life price etc ( I suppose that doesn't make headlines) it isn't right it is misleading and they really should be held accountable for it.

If only the general public would come onto sites like this and get a more rounded picture of defence procurement which isn't always a rosy picture but at least your getting a hell of a lot more of the correct information than what those pitiful excuses for Journalist supply here in Australia.

Sorry to rant but i needed to vent, I'll calm down until the next thing i read that has been written poorly haha have a good day.

 

[King Wally]

Im a civvy and yeah I came out of that 4 corners episode pretty taken back, hell its hard not to.

Im still a beleiver in the F-35 program but I must say in the last year Ive starting asking more questions of it.

A big one obviously has to be why we never put out a fighter competition to at least get pitches for options and try and screw the F-35 price down etc. As someone that works in business I'd be shot if I didn't play suppliers off against each other to get a good deal and yet the Aussie gov seams to have done just that on one of their largest ever purchases. Part of the problem seams to be that the F-35 is still very much a development project with a lot of work to go. Hense why they cant quote a definite black and white price on X many units. Even they dont know yet what 75 odd F-35's will cost in 5 years time.

Overall, I have to say I would be leaning toward seeing the RAAF plump up its Super Hornet ranks with an extra dozen units for example and wait a little longer so we can host a new legacy hornet replacement bid project in a few years and really play these suppliers off against each other to get a better deal. Given the 24 supers we picked up in 2010 it seams a mixed fleet is already guaranteed so why not just run with it?

 

[protoplasm]

JSF delivery timeline

Just wondering what year it is planned for the last batch of JSF to be delivered to the RAAF? Thinking along the lines of, how old would a second batch of supers be if ordered now when the last lot of JSF arrives?

I'm not interested in the scare mongering by 4 corners over JSF, more the likelihood of not having enough legacy hornets to last until the final JSF are delivered.

 

[King Wally]

Just wondering what year it is planned for the last batch of JSF to be delivered to the RAAF? Thinking along the lines of, how old would a second batch of supers be if ordered now when the last lot of JSF arrives?

I'm not interested in the scare mongering by 4 corners over JSF, more the likelihood of not having enough legacy hornets to last until the final JSF are delivered.

this is the most official delivery news I could find.

On current plans, AIR 6000 Phase 2A/B, the first phase of the acquisition, will consider acquiring up to 72 CTOL F-35A aircraft to establish three operational squadrons, a training squadron and necessary supporting/enabling elements to replace the current F/A-18 A/B Hornet capability.

•In November 2009, the Government approved funding for Phase 2A/B (Stage 1) to acquire 14 CTOL F-35A aircraft, support and enabling elements required to establish the initial pilot and maintainer training capability in the US and to allow conduct of operational test in the US and Australia. The first two F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft will be delivered in the US in 2014. The delivery of the next 12 aircraft, originally scheduled for delivery in the 2015-2017 timeframe, will now be delayed by two years.

•Phase 2A/B (Stage 2) will consider approving funding for the next tranche of (up to) 58 CTOL F-35A aircraft and support and enabling elements to form the first three operational squadrons and a training unit. A Government risk assessment of overall F-35 progress, and any recommendations, to be presented to Government in late 2012, will inform a decision on the way ahead for Stage 2..

A subsequent AIR 6000 Phase 2C is planned to acquire the fourth operational squadron to bring the total number of aircraft to around 100. A decision on Phase 2C – not expected before 2015 – will depend on the decision on the timing of the withdrawal of the F/A-18F Super Hornets.

In essence it depends on gov making some decisions in the near future. Whether they slam the brakes on and delay or whether they push on and hit the order button again imedietly to keep the flow incoming. Last I heard from the department of defence they seamed very hesitant to commit to orders and went to the length of stating they were getting prices on additional Supers?

 

[VerySneaky]

Just wondering what year it is planned for the last batch of JSF to be delivered to the RAAF? Thinking along the lines of, how old would a second batch of supers be if ordered now when the last lot of JSF arrives?

I'm not interested in the scare mongering by 4 corners over JSF, more the likelihood of not having enough legacy hornets to last until the final JSF are delivered.

information sourced from here See P 55 & 57 for relevant IOC.

Air 6000 Phase 2A/2B (first 3 squadrons - 72 aircraft)

First Pass Approval Completed
Year-of-Decision FY 2014-15 to FY 2015-16
Initial Materiel Release FY 2017-18 to FY 2020-21
Initial Operational Capability FY 2019-20 to FY 2022-23

Phase 2C (fourth squadron)

AIR 6000 Phase 2C is the final acquisition phase for the AIR 6000 project and will comprise a fourth operational squadron of
F-35A aircraft, associated support and enabling capabilities, and attrition aircraft to support the planned fleet life. The decision to
acquire the fourth operational JSF squadron will be considered in conjunction with a decision on the withdrawal of the F/A-18F
Super Hornet in the FY 2015-16 to FY 2017-18 timeframe.

First Pass Approval FY 2013-14 to FY 2014-15
Year-of-Decision FY 2015-16 to FY 2017-18
Initial Materiel Release FY 2023-24 to FY 2026-27
Initial Operational Capability FY 2023-24 to FY 2026-27

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Last I heard from the department of defence they seamed very hesitant to commit to orders and went to the length of stating they were getting prices on additional Supers?

It’s a big department… There will always be suits in the Department who will argue against buying everything, that’s what they do. The RAAF is extremely upset they haven’t had more commitments to orders for F-35s. The failure to do so has ruined their training plans for transition. The Minister’s office is pushing a second Super Hornet buy for their own reasons. Which are hard to understand but probably have something to do with the appearance of doing something and thinking this will resonate positively with voters. Since it’s up to the Cabinet Committee to decide to buy the second batch (14 units) no decision has been made yet.

 

[Volkodav]

Im a civvy and yeah I came out of that 4 corners episode pretty taken back, hell its hard not to.

Im still a beleiver in the F-35 program but I must say in the last year Ive starting asking more questions of it.

A big one obviously has to be why we never put out a fighter competition to at least get pitches for options and try and screw the F-35 price down etc.

Well the answer is requirements, if you are shopping for a car and you need 7 seats, AWD and a 2000kg tow capacity you are not going to select a Lotus Elise irrespective of the fact it is a gorgeous and capable car, it just doesn't come anywhere near your requirements. To move 7 people you will need 4 of them and forget about towing but you could divide the load between the 4 cars. Technically both solutions address the requirement but while sexier the Lotus just doesn't really make sense for this application.

Back to the Hornet replacement, if you need the ability to penetrate a modern IADS you either need a lot of gen 4.5 strike fighters with significant supporting assets within the strike package as well as stand off assets, or you go for a capable, multi-role gen 5 platform that can penetrate and self escort with no or minimal support.

 

[protoplasm]

If IOC for AIR6000 2B is at the later end of the timeframe, 2023, how many of the current legacy Hornets will have any fatigue life left at that point? It seems we could be pouring quite a bit of cash into managing metal fatigue and corrosion on 30+ year old airframes. And this assumes no further slippages in the JSF program. I want JSF, I'm just unsure if we can keep the legacy hornet going for another 10 years.

IOC for AIR6000 2C is somewhere out towards 2025 or beyond, at that point our current supers will be 15+ years old, and even another batch would already be about 10 years old.

Is there going to be a hole in the middle with no or very few JSF that haven't reached IOC, 24 Superhornets and a collection of 40 something available legacy hornets (assuming some retirements due to fatigue/age) that are very expensive to maintain?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

If IOC for AIR6000 2B is at the later end of the timeframe, 2023

But IOC for 2B doesn’t have to be 2023. Even the latest downsized production plans have USAF buying 60 per year with deliveries in 2020-23 and up to 80 per year from 2024. There is no reason why the RAAF couldn’t be getting 12 a year from 2020. Except the govt. committing to the aircraft.

 

[Volkodav]

Not sure but I believe the last batch of bugs are only just hitting 20 years now and I cant remember for sure when the first batch entered service. I know the jigs and fixtures were still being fabbed in 83-84 so it would have been after that.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Not sure but I believe the last batch of bugs are only just hitting 20 years now and I cant remember for sure when the first batch entered service. I know the jigs and fixtures were still being fabbed in 83-84 so it would have been after that.

First Australian built Hornet was delivered in late 1985 and the last in mid 1990. They are all pretty old and without the mass CBR that was meant to happen you don't want to be flying them past 2020ish. The RAAF could have 75 F-35s delivered by 2025 if the Govt. will order them in which case none of the F/A-18A/Bs would not need to fly past 2023.

 

[protoplasm]

It's still the question of will the bugs make it to 2023 with airframes of between 33 and 38 years old?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

It's still the question of will the bugs make it to 2023 with airframes of between 33 and 38 years old?

Oppa F-111 Style
Eh, sexy lady
Op, op, op, op

 

[Volkodav]

Oppa F-111 Style
Eh, sexy lady
Op, op, op, op

Yes we definately need to refer this to APA, I suspect their answer will involve grave robbing and necromancy.

 

[SpudmanWP]

My question is “What did they do with the money?”

What I mean is it they had to delay the JSF purchase for a few years to save money on Concurrency, then they should have put the money aside for a later purchase. This would have allowed them to make one or two large purchases of F-35s when they met the spec.

What it looks like they are doing is shifting the procurement schedule to the right while keeping the same year-to-year buys. This makes little sense considering the gap and cost issues with existing Hornets. They should have ordered the first large orders when TR2 came online. This way Blk3F would be a simple software upgrade and costs would remain low while keeping availability high.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

My question is “What did they do with the money?”

What I mean is it they had to delay the JSF purchase for a few years to save money on Concurrency, then they should have put the money aside for a later purchase.

That’s not why the F-35 order has been pushed back two years. It’s so the big money for the second batch (12) is pushed back to the end of federal budget five year outlook and the super big money for the third batch (58) isn’t in the budget outlook at all before the next election. The current Australian Govt. is immensely unpopular (30% in the polls) is spending everything they can to shore up the vote (Defence does not equal votes) and is having a collapse in new revenue schemes.

 

[SpudmanWP]

If that's the case then they need to stop talking about interim F-18s since they should have just bought F-35s.