Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

All these things may be obvious, but I'm really interested into the rationale behind this procurement and how it was explained within the Indonesian military aerospace community.

You know, perhaps I'm not the right person to ask about the neccesity of COIN for TNI-AU. From early of this thread, I have put my opinion that from my believe, COIN for TNI-AU is wasting resources. TNI-AU put reasons for Tucano purchases (from public statement that they've release so far):

1. COIN, as their reasoning that even USAF still see the need for this kind of aircraft based on the experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan. The thinking is, that specialized turboprop COIN fighters can provide better range and speed compared to Armed Helicopters like Mi-24/35 or even Apache. For that they (TNI-AU) argue that even the Army (TNI-AD) already procured Mi-35 and in process to procured more advance attack helicopter (whether this turn out to be Apache or not has to be seen), is not enough for COIN assets.

2. Border protection and patrol. TNI-AU believe that the fast jets fighter is not suitable enough to patrol land and maritime border. Especially land border area like Kalimantan/Borneo and Papua that covered mostly by dense tropical jungle, need specialized turboprop COIN fighter, just like Brazil already shown on their using Super Tucano on Amazon Patrol duty.

There are other several reasons that they put to media, however in my opinion they build their case on this two main reasons. Interestingly the border patrol reasoning also their main case for building UAV sq in Pontianak (West Kalimantan).

I do believe UAV, and Attack Helicopter for TNI will be more suitable rather than build and procured specialized COIN fighters. The questions for Super Tucano did being debated by TNI-AU with Mindef (since three-couple years ago there're several communique from Mindef to media that indicated they are asking questions to TNI-AU as users for the need of COIN Fighters as OV-10 replacement). However if I have to guess, TNI it self did see OV-10 provide excellent service for them on conflict area from East Timor, Aceh and Papua, that there're build in psychic on them they have to keep maintain specialized COIN fighter.

On why Super Tucano, I do believe because this is the type that from beginning TNI-AU wants. On the procurement process KAI did put KA-1/KO-1 (KT-1 derivative) as alternative. They just like your reasoning also put commonality with KT-1 as the case to Indonesian Mindef as efficient alternative for COIN Fighters.

However TNI-AU put argument that KA-1/KO-1 is not operational yet. They did not want to become the 'experiment' customers for KA-1 program, when they see even (at that time) ROKAF it self is not operating KA/KO-1. While Super Tucano already proved them selves by several customers, and like I said before TNI-AU did impress by performance of Super Tucano on Amazon Patrol duty with Brazilian AF.

On commonality with KT-1 (if I'm not mistaken), TNI-AU argue by the the end the KA-1 that being offered by KAI to meet TNI-AU need only have 60-70% commonality with KT-1 anyway, thus not really provide significant efficient gain on logistics with their KT-1. Personally, I do believe the reasoning of Super Tucano is more proven as COIN assets (plus some incentives deal that Embraer put on procurement packages) did win the contest.

Logistically, buying a fighter with already established population, will be more efficient then procured a new fighter with limited or (in the case KA/KO-1 at that time) non existing (thus become a launch customer) operating populations. Again after all KA-1 did not provide 100% commonality with KT-1 thus there are some (perhaps) significant parts that logistically you have to provide separately. Which in this the argument is, why don't just procured a diiferent but already proven COIN Fighters (Super Tucano) anyway.

Well that's I believe the best I can get on the reasoning on Super Tucano choices. For me, again I personally still believe TNI-AU did not need to procured COIN Fighters anymore. They at the same time put resources to build UAV sq with 'Philippines' build UAV as the backbone with main reasoning for Border Surveillance and patrol. While TNI-AD continued building Attack helicopter sq, which the reasoning for that (at least publicly) basically similar with TNI-AU reasoning for continued having COIN sq.

So, in conclusions from me, TNI-AU main reasoning to have Super Tucano is simply it's the best current fighter to fill OV-10 shoes, which TNI as overall (including the Army) very grateful on their service.

What TNI-AU aircraft are permanently based at Natuna? In the 1990's there were Hawks based there but I'm not sure if they were permanently there or just on deployments?

Sturm, as far as I can tell, Natuna (Ranai) AB is build to be able to support Fast Jets operations, but still lack facility to permanently housed them. From time to time, TNI-AU do send some of its Fighters flight (usually 4 fighters), to operated from there. Hawk is naturally the most common fighters there, since Natuna relative close locations with Pontianak AB, which housed one of TNI-AU Hawk 209/109 sq.

 

[koxinga]

1. COIN, as their reasoning that even USAF still see the need for this kind of aircraft based on the experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan. The thinking is, that specialized turboprop COIN fighters can provide better range and speed compared to Armed Helicopters like Mi-24/35 or even Apache. For that they (TNI-AU) argue that even the Army (TNI-AD) already procured Mi-35 and in process to procured more advance attack helicopter (whether this turn out to be Apache or not has to be seen), is not enough for COIN assets.

This is the part I don't understand, why the need for three different types of assets which overlapping capabilities for COIN.

Based on the current strategic climate, COIN does not seem to be very high on the list of operational scenarios. If anything else, a LIC (low-intensity conflict) with a regional power seems are more likely occurrence than a separatist movement. I can see steps to reform TNI from an internal focus to one equipped to fight a limited external conflict but the number of COIN platforms to be a waste of funds which could be used for force multipliers such as refuelling platforms, electronic support assets, and AEWs.

 

[Ananda]

This is the part I don't understand, why the need for three different types of assets which overlapping capabilities for COIN.

Based on the current strategic climate, COIN does not seem to be very high on the list of operational scenarios. If anything else, a LIC (low-intensity conflict) with a regional power seems are more likely occurrence than a separatist movement. I can see steps to reform TNI from an internal focus to one equipped to fight a limited external conflict but the number of COIN platforms to be a waste of funds which could be used for force multipliers such as refuelling platforms, electronic support assets, and AEWs.

For me the answer are; OV-10 Bronco and USAF LAS program. As my self is not a big fan for TNI-AU continued procured and maintained specialized COIN sq, just as my previous post stated. Thus I believe both conditions I mentioned above influenced much why specialized COIN sq still being procured.

OV-10 has proved much for TNI of it's usefulness, thus the need to keep maintaining that capabilities loom large on TNI planners psychic. USAF LAS program being used by TNI-AU as proved even the world largest and most sophisticated AF still see the need of this type of Fighters for low intensity combat.

USAF LAS program being told by TNI-AU that even USAF still see UAV and Gunship helicopter is not enough, but both only can supplement the need for COIN operations. Indonesia still facing threat of insurgencies in Papua. While although recently being crushed, the threat of terrorism using Indonesian borders and rural area for training and conducting their operations still potentially exists.

For that TNI planners maintained three kind of assets (UAV, Gunships Helicopter, and Specialized COIN Fighter) are essential to maintained credible COIN capabilities.

 

[koxinga]

Thanks for the reply. I suppose it is a matter of what TNI-AU planners perceive as its needs.I don't disagree with the usefulness but that should always be tempered by whether maintaining that capability is a strategic priority. I guess this is where I depart with TNI-AU planners; I simply don't see a necessity to be vested extensively in this area because the likelihood of this need (COIN) is limited.

On the other hand, I see force multipliers as something that TNI-AU should invest in, given the large operational environment. On a separate note, has there been any plan to invest in a BVR capability? Among the SEA airforces, I believe TNI-AU does not yet have this capability on both the SU-27/30s or the F-16s.

 

[Ananda]

On the other hand, I see force multipliers as something that TNI-AU should invest in, given the large operational environment. On a separate note, has there been any plan to invest in a BVR capability? Among the SEA airforces, I believe TNI-AU does not yet have this capability on both the SU-27/30s or the F-16s.

Yes, like I said before personally I also did not see the neccesity to prioritize COIN fighter like Super Tucano, but clearly TNI planers see otherwise.

For BVR, the upgrade program for 24 ex USAF and 10 existing F-16 will make them AMRAAM capable. The Flankers certainly capable for R-77. However whther both misiles will be or already procured remain in the dark at least for this moment. Local forum full of claim that R-77 already being procured, however for missiles TNI does have tendencies to remain silent. It's not in the nature of TNI even in the airshow to display their missiles (which some other AF usually did).

Whether R-77 already included on the recent Flankers armament procurement contract or the next, remain to be seen. However in one occasion that I know of, Minister of Defence stated his intentions that TNI F-16 and Flankers will match similar capabilities with regional Fighters.

BTW, for BVR only Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, and Vietnam that already hve them. Don't sure if Myanmar has them, and Philipines plus Laos and Cambodia, I'm quite positive did not have them.

 

[Vegan-Zombie]

I'd like to ask a question... what is with our air force and paint schemes? like honestly they would paint their aircraft in a various patterns consisting of grey, white, blue, green, tan, etc. why not a standard paint scheme like Malaysia and Singapore? I mean it doesn't have to be gray just a common scheme...

And this goes to all the other branches, like the marines and their thing of painting "MARINIR" in bright yellow letters on the side of camouflaged vehicles...

 

[Ananda]

I'd like to ask a question... what is with our air force and paint schemes? like honestly they would paint their aircraft in a various patterns consisting of grey, white, blue, green, tan, etc. why not a standard paint scheme like Malaysia and Singapore? I mean it doesn't have to be gray just a common scheme...

And this goes to all the other branches, like the marines and their thing of painting "MARINIR" in bright yellow letters on the side of camouflaged vehicles...

I believe by watching latest camouflage on TNI-AU Fighters, they already standardize to greyish background. Hawk 200 used to have two kind of two tone camouflage; grey-blue and green-yellow/ However the latest one seems already moved to greyish one, as similar to latest camouflage on F-16, Flankers and Super Tucano.

While for Trainers (KT-1B and TA-50), some of them being painted for TNI-AU Aerial Display team (Jupiter for KT-1B and the plan revival of 'Elang Biru' or Blue Hawk team with TA-50). Attached I've put some pictures that already circulating on various sites online.

 

[Vegan-Zombie]

Seems about right, thank you for telling me, but I believe transport planes still has the Green-Brown pattern. BTW, Do low visibility roundels work? If so, why has the Hawk been the only aircraft to use them?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

BTW, for BVR only Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, and Vietnam that already hve them. Don't sure if Myanmar has them, and Philipines plus Laos and Cambodia, I'm quite positive did not have them.

Papua-Nugini and Timor-Lorosae also not...

BTW, the T-50 will also be delivered in the normal scheme/delivery, besides the Elang Biru scheme.
And also according to other fora, 6 pilots and 31 technicians are already sent to Korea.

 

[Ananda]

From Suara Karya online: Suara Karya Online

TNI-AU will keep their F-5 operational by upgrading them. Using Google Translate:

Related to F-5 fighter aircraft, the Air Force said KSAU still use, but need to be enhanced. "As a strategic work program, the F-5 was effective in up grade for use, because other countries are still many uses such as Singapore, in addition to the Air Force will also receive additional F-5 of the South Korean government which is the complement of aircraft purchase T-50, "said KSAU.

The Article mainly talking about TNI-AU plan setting special Task Force to handle flight safety measure more effectively. The Air Force chief of staff (KSAU) admiited the coordination between various air base on the flight safety measurement need to be conducted more coordinately.

At that article he mentioned that TNI-AU will keep the F-5 operational by upgrading them and the F-5 fleet will be supplemented by ex ROKAF F-5, which come as part of 'grant' that accompany T-50 deal.

The plan for upgrading and continue operating F-5 already circulating on local forum for sometime. In fact in recent Indodefence several companies including Swiss RUAG already show the package for F-5 upgrade. However the news on the fate of F-5 keep contradicting each other. This is one of the first news from Air Force Chief indicating they want to keep F-5 operational.

From other news, Air Force Chief also indicating that the 24 upgraded ex USAF F-16 C/D and 10 existing F-16 A/B OCU (which will be upgraded also) will form 2 sq of 16 on the existing Sq 3 in Madiun and 18 on new Sq in Pekanbaru (thus made Pekanbaru hosts 2 sq of Hawk 209/109 and plan F-16 C/D).

This (as my previous posts on TNI-AU summarize conditions and plan), will put TNI-AU ORBAT of 8 sq with 1 Flankers, 1 F-5, 1 Super Tucano, 1 TA-50, 2 F-16, 2 Hawk 109/209. With Mindef already signed MoU for upgrade packages of Hawk 109/209. thus means the upgraded aircraft (F-5, F-16, and Hawk 109/209) potentially can s till be operational on front line duty up to 2020+.

Will still need to see how they are going to fill another 2 sq to complete 10 plan sq according to Strategic Plan (Renstra). My self inclined if they will get another 2 sq, it will be another Flanker and Falcon/Viper. The movement of Mindef and TNI-AU that continue negotiations for additional Flankers and Viper seems showing toward that path.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

From

From other news, Air Force Chief also indicating that the 24 upgraded ex USAF F-16 C/D and 10 existing F-16 A/B OCU (which will be upgraded also) will form 2 sq of 16 on the existing Sq 3 in Madiun and 18 on new Sq in Pekanbaru (thus made Pekanbaru hosts 2 sq of Hawk 209/109 and plan F-16 C/D).

This (as my previous posts on TNI-AU summarize conditions and plan), will put TNI-AU ORBAT of 8 sq with 1 Flankers, 1 F-5, 1 Super Tucano, 1 TA-50, 2 F-16, 2 Hawk 109/209. With Mindef already signed MoU for upgrade packages of Hawk 109/209. thus means the upgraded aircraft (F-5, F-16, and Hawk 109/209) potentially can s till be operational on front line duty up to 2020+.

path.

Thanks, do you maybe have more information about the Hawk Mk109/209 upgrade?

 

[Ananda]

Thanks, do you maybe have more information about the Hawk Mk109/209 upgrade?

Not more than what already put in the media. From my understanding based on budget allocation that being circulated on local forum, the money for upgrading 10 existing F-16 A/B OCU already budgeted (USD 270 mio), however no budget being allocated for Hawk 109/209 yet. Seems they will be prepared after F-16 ones.

 

[koxinga]

Not more than what already put in the media. From my understanding based on budget allocation that being circulated on local forum, the money for upgrading 10 existing F-16 A/B OCU already budgeted (USD 270 mio), however no budget being allocated for Hawk 109/209 yet. Seems they will be prepared after F-16 ones.

Does this means that the offer for 10 additional airframes from the US is not being taken up? I had thought that those F-16 A/B OCUs airframes has reached their maximum flying hours.

I had read on ARC that PT CMI was working with Northrop to upgrade the APG-66 radar to APG-68.

 

[Ananda]

Does this means that the offer for 10 additional airframes from the US is not being taken up? I had thought that those F-16 A/B OCUs airframes has reached their maximum flying hours.

I had read on ARC that PT CMI was working with Northrop to upgrade the APG-66 radar to APG-68.

For CMI, their Radar development business that already quite firm is with Lockheed Martin for TPS-77 and FPS-177 Long Range Surveillance Radar for bidding in Indonesian National Aerospace Surveillance (NASRI) program. As I have put on my previous posts PT.CMI and LM team up for bidding on the slice of NASRI projects competing with State owned INTI and Len that team up with Northrop Grumman and Thales respectively.

So the news that Northrop also ask CMI on team up on other projects, in my mind should be treat cautiously since in Practice presently Northrop team up with CMI competitor INTI. However I'm not ruling it out, since the F-16 upgrade projects included replacing AN/APG-66 with AN/APG-68, and Indonesian Mindef this days ask involvement on Indonesian Tech companies as much as possible for ToT purpose. CMI with relative long history background on Microwave technology can be a good partner to choose.

Those F-16 A/B OCU on Indonesian inventory from what I heard only accumulated 4000+ hours in average so far. Not surprisingly since many of them during the East Timor related embargo were mostly grounded. After all during the 1998-2007 era, the Hawk 109/209 were the most active TNI-AU fighter assets, since UK embargo was ended before US ones, and if I heard right the stock of spare parts for Hawk 109/209 were larger in TNI-AU inventory compared to US made assets like F-16 or F-5 ones. Thus existing F-16 A/B OCU actually still have enough Flight Hours left. Besides the upgrade, like the upgrade for ex USAF F-16 C/D will increase the Airframe hours.

Additional F-16 airframes still under very early talked/negotiation from what read on Mindef communique so far It's potentially for additional sq, since the 24 new upgraded F-16 C/D and 10 F-16 A/B OCU will only provided for 2 sq, short what the Mindef and TNI-AU had in mind to fulfill RENSTRA plan of 10 Fighters sq. However in my opinion, it will not become a new deal until after 2014. The present administrations seems incline only to get 8 Fighter sq (as I've mentioned before) based on their statement and plan in several Media. They left the plan to get another 2 sq (to fill 10 sq in RENSTRA) to next administrations I believe.

 

[Ananda]

Black Hawk over Apache ?

Indonesian Army (TNI-AD) ponder the possibility for 20 Black Hawk. From Kompas online
24 Heli Bell dan 20 Black Hawk untuk TNI AD - KOMPAS.com.

With Google translate:

BANDA ACEH, KOMPAS.com - the Army will purchase 24 Bell 412 helicopters units and 20 units of Black Hawk. Procurement helicopter was part of the organization of the main tools of weapons systems (alusista) army.

This was conveyed by Chief of Army Staff General Pramono Edhie Wibowo at Military Area Command Headquarters in Iskandar Muda, Banda Aceh, on Monday (02/11/2013).

"If procurement for the upcoming program I will hold a 24 bell 412. Newly come 10, (now) there, we would use," he said.

Army, he said, will continue to communicate with the helicopter maker. "If permitted, and the funds available, we will buy Black Hawk 20 units from the U.S.," he said.

There's a little mess-up in translation on Google Translate, Actually he means that for 24 Bell 412, the program already on going with 10 already arrived. This is the program that Bell cooperate with DI where DI conducting final assembly.

The news on Black Hawk procurement is also already for some time, but before on Parliament, Mindef already stated that Black Hawk procurement is a choice/alternative between Apache, Cobra and Black Hawk.
Pemerintah Timbang Beli Apache, Super Cobra, atau Black Hawk - KOMPAS.com

Thus this statement from Army Chief (Kasad) on the Army looking for Black Hawk, raised questions now whether this means Apache procurement being drop and the budget being directed to Black Hawk.

With TNI already have 2 kind of Mid-Heavy size helicopter (Super Puma with TNI-AU/Air Force) and MI-17V (with the TNI-AD/Army), the procurement of Black Hawk also raise eyebrows on the logic in having another type of Mid-Heavy size transport Helicopter.

Other source on local forum indicated that the procurement of Apache still in negotiation, but the Black Hawk is on seperate negotiations. However this raise questions that if this occurred, then TNI-AD will have Mi-35 and Mi-17 on one hand, and Apache and Black Hawk on the other hand. Two Attack and Transport combinations from both Rusia and US.

What the logic on this ? Some local Analyst ponder that probably the Mi-35 + Mi-17 will be used on Insurgencies/Conflict area like Papua, and Apache + Black Hawk combinations will be stationed on non-conflict area, thus will not touch sensitive reactions from US Politicians.

Whatever the considerations are, but if in the end TNI-AD does used two separate
combinations of US and Russian attack-transport Helicopters, then the Logic will be 'Political' ones and not cost/efficient/logistic ones.

 

[ADMk2]

What the logic on this ? Some local Analyst ponder that probably the Mi-35 + Mi-17 will be used on Insurgencies/Conflict area like Papua, and Apache + Black Hawk combinations will be stationed on non-conflict area, thus will not touch sensitive reactions from US Politicians.

Whatever the considerations are, but if in the end TNI-AD does used two separate
combinations of US and Russian attack-transport Helicopters, then the Logic will be 'Political' ones and not cost/efficient/logistic ones.

Has any thought been given to the possibility that Indonesia is looking to develop "inter-operable" forces for possible future Coalition deployments? Mi-35/Mi-17/SU-27/30 fighters aren't going to easily fit in with Coalition operations (though they could with sufficient focus) whereas off the shelf, Blackhawk, AH-64D and F-16 capabilities would easily plug into any Western Coalition operation?

The mix doesn't make a whole lot of sense otherwise. The non-US kit for domestic and fleet "rounding out" purposes and the US spec equipment for deployability, major homeland defence scenarios and Coalition operations?

 

[Ananda]

That's why I said, the 'Political' logic's probably has more in tune if the road on having two set of 'western' and 'non-western' Portfolio, continue to be exercise. Take a look on SSM. Chinese C-705 now under final negotiation stage to be procured and later on being build locally, however in the same time Mindef also negotiating for Exocet MM-40.

Politically, it's hard to sell the idea of Western weapons (due to historical embargo before), while not balancing for other Portfolio procurement with non western ones. Simple say is, if Mindef wants to have 2 sq of F-16, at least they also have to procured 1 sq of Flankers.

It will not made the best logic's for commonality and efficient Portfolio, but can sell better Politically. In fact right now, some factions in Parliament still demanded for Mindef to get T-90 for next batch of MBT deal, since the first batch already went to Leo-2.

Political motivation in anywhere can lead to suspicious Political 'corrupt' motivations. This especially true in Indonesia, that's why procurement need to be balance and demanded more accountability. In case of MBT, I don't think in anytime soon, there will be other MBT procurements except Leo 2. However if the Germans got the deals for MBT (and most likely IFV with Marder as based), then the Marines must get Russian Tanks (BMP-3). The public rationale of that, is for amphibious tracked armored vehicles, the Russian provide value for money products. The Political motivations on that, is to balance the need pro-western and non-western armament in the Parliament.

This is I do believe what happen now, more than any other reasons. Don't think Indonesia will join any coalitions operations (unless it's under UN flag). It's political mine-field for any administrations to join any overseas Military operations not under UN flag.

 

[koxinga]

The news on Black Hawk procurement is also already for some time, but before on Parliament, Mindef already stated that Black Hawk procurement is a choice/alternative between Apache, Cobra and Black Hawk.

I don't need to point out, the Black Hawk does not fit into that mix which includes the Apache and the Cobra and it begs the question, what role/mission are we looking at?

Force planning looks at operational scenarios/threat matrix first, and through that, identifying the SOR (Specific Operational Requirements) which can meet those scenarios/threats, before narrowing down the platforms. On a strategic level, there seems to be some thought given to this via MEF/RENSTRA, but at the execution level, it seems to be a free-for-all with either the politicians involved and the usual service level rivalries.

Edit:
On a separate note, wouldn't PT DI have a strong lobby in Parliament? I understand that the Mil-17 purchases came on the back of the 1 billion credit line given by Putin, but this Black Hawk purchase would be funded internally. PT DI should be actively pushing the Cougar/EC725 (they are supposed to be building 6 of them).

 

[Ananda]

On a strategic level, there seems to be some thought given to this via MEF/RENSTRA, but at the execution level, it seems to be a free-for-all with either the politicians involved and the usual service level rivalries.

The inter-services rivalries seems play part on this. The Army Air unit (Penerbad) usually been limited to have tactical transport on the UH-1 (later on Bell 212/412) class where the Air Force operated heavier engine like SA-330/Super Puma class.

The operation of MI-17V which basically in the same level as SA-330 class, change this. Off course this was and will never being stated by them officially, however during the budget meeting with Finance Ministry, an army brass reported told the Finance people that they should get bigger Helicopter class, cause in the field, the Air Force support takes times due to bureaucratic procedures. It's an excuse, since many ways can be done too improve this. However the main thing is, the Army want higher degree of Independence when dealing on some Special Operations requirement that need Helicopter larger than Bell 412 class.

Cougar/EC725 that being ordered through EADS and DI cooperation will be operated by the Air Force. The Army 'rumored' put DI production capability limitations as an excuse on getting Mid-Heavy class outside EC725. Di it self reported not raising concern on possible Black Hawk deals since they already got their hand fulls on Bell 412 and EC 725 productions.

This is an article on Tempo on line that quote Min-Def official on possible Black Hawk deal. The official indicated that Black Hawk will be an alternative to Apache, if they can't negotiate better price for Apache. This show in my mind possible change of mind or reconsiderations within the Army on which asset they would prefer best in supporting their Special Operation units need (i,e Kostrad & Kopasus), which many believe the intended main users for Apache or Black Hawk.

Pembelian Black Hawk Jadi Alternatif Apache * | nasional | Tempo.co

Unconfirmed report on local media and forum, indicated they (Special units) are not really happy with the performance of Mil Helicopters, which some of their officers stated too noisy for Special Ops needs. For that the Army seems now moving Mi-35 and Mi-17 on other duties that not related to Special Ops. Currently 4 to 6 Mi-17 already and being prepared for UN operations overseas. UN operations reported ask Indonesia for Mi-17 contributions due to their robustness and relative easy maintenance in the field.

Armed versions with night operations capabilities like this that seems the Special Forces wants. Well, they are interested with How Israel special forces able to do with their Black Hawks, after all no secret that the army usually can found ways in getting 'illegal but approved' Israel stuffs anyway

 

[the road runner]

TArmed versions with night operations capabilities like this that seems the Special Forces wants. Well, they are interested with How Israel special forces able to do with their Black Hawks, after all no secret that the army usually can found ways in getting 'illegal but approved' Israel stuffs anyway

So they are looking at the Battlehawk ,version.Seems like a very flexible platform for Special Forces ,one that can be tailor made for most missions they would face.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGuds5-fSTc"]Sikorsky - S-70 Battlehawk Helicopter [480p] - YouTube[/nomedia]