Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

[Feanor]

The military police looks like it will replace the military commandants, and will work with the military procuracy the same way that police does in the civilian world. In other words it would be a structure outside of all the services.

In other news, the Volk armored car is going to start state acceptance trials early next year. For me personally this is somewhat disheartening. The Land Forces are already getting the Tiger, and the Lynx, and UAZ Gusar. There is no need for another type.

Lenta.ru:

EDIT: South MD just took delivery of a bucket-full of arty pieces and support vehicles to them. The numbers listed are as follows:

40+ Msta-S
20+ Kornet ATGMs
70+ Tornado and Grad systems (at least 24 are Tornado-G systems, 18 in 20th MRB, and 6 to an MRB in Chechnya)
20+ Hosta SP Arty/Mortars
?? Iskander missile units

Allegedly all the units delivered have GLONASS navigation and telecoded digital communication equipment. The Msta-S are equipped with the automatic fcs.Also delivered were unspecified quantities of arty command posts, counter-battery radars, mortars, arty recon vehicles and other equipment.

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/11/22/artillery/

It really looks like they're not waiting for next-gen systems when it comes to re-equipping South MD.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Lenta.ru:

EDIT: South MD just took delivery of a bucket-full of arty pieces and support vehicles to them. The numbers listed are as follows:

40+ Msta-S
20+ Kornet ATGMs
70+ Tornado and Grad systems (at least 24 are Tornado-G systems, 18 in 20th MRB, and 6 to an MRB in Chechnya)
20+ Hosta SP Arty/Mortars
?? Iskander missile units

Allegedly all the units delivered have GLONASS navigation and telecoded digital communication equipment. The Msta-S are equipped with the automatic fcs.Also delivered were unspecified quantities of arty command posts, counter-battery radars, mortars, arty recon vehicles and other equipment.

Lenta.ru:

It really looks like they're not waiting for next-gen systems when it comes to re-equipping South MD.

These Hosta's are another batch on the top of the one delivered earlier this year, correct? As well, has the 155mm Msta variant entered service with any units yet?

IMHO it's a good idea for them to rearm the district the best tech available right now, as even that is pretty good relative to what some of the other MD's are using. Supposedly, over 80% of the comms gear in service in the south is modern, and will hit 90% next year. They're really rearming the South MD, sure makes me why.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Sorry for the off-topic question here, I was wondering, how reliable is warfare.ru as a source?

 

[Feanor]

These Hosta's are another batch on the top of the one delivered earlier this year, correct?

I don't know. Maybe not. This article seems to list a very large number of systems, so I suspect it's a summary of everything this year. Then again a total of 36 Hosta's were ordered last year. And they're being deployed in replacement of btln mortars, 6 per MRBtln. So 36 of them re-arms 2 MRBdes. Given that they should only be re-arming South MD (well and the one experimental brigade in Central MD) I don't see why they need more then that. My guess is total Hosta numbers for this year will be 36 again.

As well, has the 155mm Msta variant entered service with any units yet?

Not to the best of my knowledge. Why would it? It was meant as an export variant. Russia isn't switching over to NATO standard munitions. The 120mm systems are meant to be able to fire mortar rounds, and iirc they're still compatible with the 122mm munitions.

IMHO it's a good idea for them to rearm the district the best tech available right now, as even that is pretty good relative to what some of the other MD's are using. Supposedly, over 80% of the comms gear in service in the south is modern, and will hit 90% next year. They're really rearming the South MD, sure makes me why.

It's obvious why. Most of Russia's major conflicts have occured in that area. With the exception of the issue of Tadjikistan, Russia has pretty much only fought there.

Sorry for the off-topic question here, I was wondering, how reliable is warfare.ru as a source?

Sort of reliable. They have an excellent database of units, and their equipment. But their total numbers of equipment are often off, or plain guesses. I'd cross reference them if you can. What specifically were you wondering about?

 

[alexkvaskov]

Given that they should only be re-arming South MD (well and the one experimental brigade in Central MD) I don't see why they need more then that. My guess is total Hosta numbers for this year will be 36 again.

So they don't plan on upgrading 2S1's in any of the other MDs?

It's obvious why. Most of Russia's major conflicts have occured in that area. With the exception of the issue of Tadjikistan, Russia has pretty much only fought there.

I can understand that, but the rearmament drive has been much more extensive than what's necessary for mere counter insurgency, then again the Americans spend trillions fighting guys in Toyota trucks with AK47s

Sort of reliable. They have an excellent database of units, and their equipment. But their total numbers of equipment are often off, or plain guesses. I'd cross reference them if you can. What specifically were you wondering about?

Artillery piece numbers, by type.

 

[Feanor]

So they don't plan on upgrading 2S1's in any of the other MDs?

It's not a 2S1 upgrade or replacement. It's true that they rebuild 2S1s to make them, but in the TO&E they replace the 2S12 Sani towed 120mm mortar. The 2S34 is a btln mortar, with a battery of six deployed to each motor-rifle btln.

In the new universal platforms there are 120mm SP mortar/arty systems planned on every type of chassis, except maybe light wheeled chassis. The plastic models they unveiled showed the Kurganets and Bumerang with 120mm mortars that looked similar to the Vena system. The current 2S1s will probably disappear entirely in the new force orgs.

I can understand that, but the rearmament drive has been much more extensive than what's necessary for mere counter insurgency, then again the Americans spend trillions fighting guys in Toyota trucks with AK47s

Not all the conflicts were counter-insurgency. Not the Georgian Civil War, not the initial push through Chechnya (first and second time), not the Armenia-Azeri conflicts, and not the war in Georgia in '08. In particular is the relatively poor performance of line arty units in the '08 war that probably made them speed up the re-armament with what's available instead of waiting for the next-gen platforms.

Artillery piece numbers, by type.

Uh. I have no idea. I doubt they're accurate. They're probably guesstimates. Nobody really knows (except the MoD, and even that's questionable) how many Soviet-era arty pieces are still in storage, and how many have been recycled, or disposed of. There's also the question of what counts as being in inventory... there's tons of Soviet-era gear that's rusting in rot-lots, and there's also tons of it simply abandoned in the middle of nowhere. Every once in a while the Russian blogosphere published photos of abandoned military bases with equipment still in them.

And to be honest it's not like it's impossible to refurbish the gear and put it back in service. It's just that there's no reason to. What arty pieces were you actually interested in? And for what purposes? What I mean is, what's the relevance of total numbers to you?

 

[alexkvaskov]

It's not a 2S1 upgrade or replacement. It's true that they rebuild 2S1s to make them, but in the TO&E they replace the 2S12 Sani towed 120mm mortar. The 2S34 is a btln mortar, with a battery of six deployed to each motor-rifle btln.

Ah, that makes more sense; seeing as a 2S34 has much greater combat capabilities than a simple towed mortar, they improve capabilities while reducing the number of systems in service.

In the new universal platforms there are 120mm SP mortar/arty systems planned on every type of chassis, except maybe light wheeled chassis. The plastic models they unveiled showed the Kurganets and Bumerang with 120mm mortars that looked similar to the Vena system. The current 2S1s will probably disappear entirely in the new force orgs.

That makes perfect sense, having more IFV and APC platforms with arty modules, but the Bumerang and Kurganets probably won't enter service in meaningful numbers for some time yet, so it's a stopgap; an effective one at that, seems the need for modern arty was really pressing if they decided not to wait for the new platforms.

In particular is the relatively poor performance of line arty units in the '08 war that probably made them speed up the re-armament with what's available instead of waiting for the next-gen platforms.

Specifically, what were some of the complaints the MoD/commanders had?

Uh. I have no idea. I doubt they're accurate. They're probably guesstimates. Nobody really knows (except the MoD, and even that's questionable) how many Soviet-era arty pieces are still in storage, and how many have been recycled, or disposed of. There's also the question of what counts as being in inventory... there's tons of Soviet-era gear that's rusting in rot-lots, and there's also tons of it simply abandoned in the middle of nowhere. Every once in a while the Russian blogosphere published photos of abandoned military bases with equipment still in them.

And to be honest it's not like it's impossible to refurbish the gear and put it back in service. It's just that there's no reason to. What arty pieces were you actually interested in? And for what purposes? What I mean is, what's the relevance of total numbers to you?

Towed and self-propelled 122 and 152mm pieces. There is a indeed a lot of gear out there, rusting away, some of which is in very poor condition and not fit for reconditioning. The problem it seems is lack of personnel for the thousands of pieces in serviceable condition that are in storage.

Regarding why I need the numbers, it's that I've been trying to get a clearer picture of the Russian armed forces in general, to better my understanding of their capabilities, force orgs and deployed equipment.

 

[Klaus]

On red-stars.org there are some articles on the Russian ground forces. One of them mentions that in early 2012 there were about 600 Msta in service.
This site has always been quite reliable, as far as I know.
I would also like to know how many artillery pieces are still in service. According to warfare.ru there are 950 Akatsiya SPH left. This could be true, as an older article on wikipedia claimed that the number was 1400 several years ago.

 

[Feanor]

Ah, that makes more sense; seeing as a 2S34 has much greater combat capabilities than a simple towed mortar, they improve capabilities while reducing the number of systems in service.

I don't think they're reducing the number of systems. One of the alleged benefits of the 2S34 was a high degree of automation. So the way I understand it, it's a 1 for 1 replacement for btln 120mm mortars.

That makes perfect sense, having more IFV and APC platforms with arty modules, but the Bumerang and Kurganets probably won't enter service in meaningful numbers for some time yet, so it's a stopgap; an effective one at that, seems the need for modern arty was really pressing if they decided not to wait for the new platforms.

Well the point is that the 2S1 is mostly in service with light units as it stands. It's not likely to be replaced by another MT-LB chassis vehicle.

Specifically, what were some of the complaints the MoD/commanders had?

Poor situational awareness, slow response times, inability to effectively suppress Georgian arty due to a lack of modern anti-battery radars. Speaking of those, a handful of brand new Zoopark-1 counter-battery fire radars were recently delivered to East MD, which I'm assuming means that South MD has been saturated since '08.

Towed and self-propelled 122 and 152mm pieces. There is a indeed a lot of gear out there, rusting away, some of which is in very poor condition and not fit for reconditioning. The problem it seems is lack of personnel for the thousands of pieces in serviceable condition that are in storage.

They're basically getting ditched. The VDV will probably keep something towed airdroppable, but even that may change if they get an upgraded Nona-S variant on the BMD-4M chassis. Or some airdroppable variant of the Vena. The new force org leaves literally no room for towed systems. Even 82mm mortars are planned for mounting on Tiger chassis.

Regarding why I need the numbers, it's that I've been trying to get a clearer picture of the Russian armed forces in general, to better my understanding of their capabilities, force orgs and deployed equipment.

The giant storage of towed guns mostly has no relevance to this whatsoever. I'd consider looking at actual reserve-storage bases, that could get activated into real units. The obscene quantities in long term storage/rot lots/abandoned aren't going anywhere, unless some desperate export customer is found. And even then the numbers aren't likely to exceed double digits, where as total numbers in storage are probably in the 5 digits area.

 

[Feanor]

On red-stars.org there are some articles on the Russian ground forces. One of them mentions that in early 2012 there were about 600 Msta in service.
This site has always been quite reliable, as far as I know.
I would also like to know how many artillery pieces are still in service. According to warfare.ru there are 950 Akatsiya SPH left. This could be true, as an older article on wikipedia claimed that the number was 1400 several years ago.

The definition of in-service is very fungible. It's not clear what they could mean by that. It could be numbers in actual units, be they active or mobilizational reserve, they could mean numbers in units + numbers at central storage. It could mean some nominal roster of how many arty pieces they're supposed to have.

EDIT: A quick update Artillery Brigade 291 in Ingushetiya (South MD) took delivery of 10 Khrizantema ATGM carriers. In the near future all the Shturm-S in that unit will get replaced with Khrizantema.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/391761.html
http://structure.mil.ru/structure/okruga/south/news/more.htm?id=11487276@egNews

Also the Iskander deliveries went to 1st Missile Brigade in South MD. Most likely 6 units were delivered with associated support vehicles.

 

[Feanor]

A little update on the artillery, the MoD is taking delivery of the Santimetr-M correctible-fire artillery shells, and will conduct trials next year. This is rather unusual, but it seems the decision to procure the shells has already been made even though they have yet to pass trials. Given the availability of alternatives, such as Krasnopol and Krasnopol-M2 this is slightly surprising. Though the original Santimetr was used as far back as Soviet War in Afghanistan, and is most likely a simpler, easier to use shell. So it might be a case of them going for a easy off the shelf solution rather then the more innovative complicated one.

Interestingly enough the US tried to get the company that develops them (Ametech) to develop a 155mm variant of the shell for the M109 arty systems back in the 90s, but the MoD blocked the deal. The US called the technology in question Russian Conception Impulse Correction (according to lenta.ru anyways, which isn't a great source). Now the upgraded variant of this shell is being procured (decade and a half later).

The shell has a max range of 20km, and minimum range of 0.5km. It can be used by Msta and Akatsiya SP systems, and 2A65, D-20, and ML-20 towed arty. The shell initially travels a regular ballistic trajectory, and is corrected using laser guidance once it's close to the target.

Lenta.ru:

EDIT: After some research I think I may have found the distinction. The Krasnopol has a minimum range of 4kms and can't be used in direct fire, where as even the original Santimetr had direct-fire capability, and had a minimum effective range of 800m (the new variant has a min eff range of 500m). There are other minor disctionctions stemming from the fact that the Santimetr is simpler and less accurate, but more effective in volley-fire (whereas the first Krasnopol impact is likely to raise dust and debris obscuring the laser targeting for the next round).

http://topwar.ru/18181-korrektiruemye-snaryady.html

 

[STURM]

During high altitude trials performed by the Indian army in the north of the country, the performance of the Krasnapol was initially less than saticfactory. A problem with using Krasnapol on a large scale may be its price tag, hence the Santimetr-M.

 

[Feanor]

I heard the problem the Indian's had was with performance, not cost. The article you cite seems to imply that the Indians liked the projectile, and gives no account for why they decided to discontinue purchases.

What's even more interesting is that China license produced ~1000 of them, and then also discontinued production. The article also mentions unnamed African countries that use it. I'm not aware of any.

 

[STURM]

The problem the Indians had was indeed performance and not cost. I was just speculating that the reason the Russian army may have decided on Santimetr-M, apart from the technical reasons you mentioned- was because it was cheaper than Krasnapol - I could be wrong.

At Malaysia's 50th Independance day celebrations held in 1997, a local company displayed a laser guided artillery round that looked exactly like Krasnapol. I was later told by an Indian military writer that the round was a copy of Krasnapol that had been produced by a Chinese and North Korean company.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Russia's first 175 professional sergeants prepared under the "new-look" system graduated last month. This is out of the 300 original participants in the program at Ryazan initiated back in 2009. Currently another another 509 are enrolled at the Ryazan VDV Higher School. The ten unified military institutions formed during the current reform process have a total of 2000 prospective professional sergeants enrolled at this point in time. The article claims that 40-50 thousand such sergeants are needed in the forces.

Ðÿçàíü âûïóñêàåò ñåðæàíòîâ - Ïîäãîòîâêà îñóùåñòâëåíà ïî íîâîé ïðîãðàììå

Will they be replacing conscripts with the sergeants as they come in, or will they be using them as part of their effort to plug the manning issues?

 

[Feanor]

Will they be replacing conscripts with the sergeants as they come in, or will they be using them as part of their effort to plug the manning issues?

As it stands a lot of contract sergeants are former conscripts that got the junior sergeant rank prior to retiring, and thus when they, post-conscription, sign a contract they come back as junior sergeants without ever going through the sergeants schools (with the exception of the 3-month long conscript sergeants course). Those guys aren't going to get replaced by the tiny numbers of sergeants coming from the sergeants schools. Also in many units conscript junior sergeants are platoon sergeants, and efreytors (the equivalent of e-2/e-3 ranks in western militaries) are squad leaders. These are the guys that are going to get bumped down in billets as more contract sergeants become available.

Realistically I suspect the current sergeants training program will fail. It can't provide enough sergeants to fill the need for professional NCO's. Most likely most of the new professional sergeants will be former conscript sergeants that sign on to stay after their 1 year is over.

As for the ones that do come out of the sergeants schools, there's so few of them they will simply be absorbed and used to fill NCO billets currently filled by non-NCO's.

Among other news, Russian troops have now adopted a new field uniform, that is literally a 1 for 1 copy of US Army ACUs, with the exception of minor modifications to pocket sizes and locations. This is due to the cluster-fuck surrounding the previous new uniforms procured under Serdyukov. The design itself was not at fault, but some of the contractors providing it were using cheaper materials, resulting in insufficient quality, especially among the warming layers.

 

[alexkvaskov]

The BMD-4 has been accepted into service.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Дожал таки Шаманов

There was talk that Shoigu would take the MIC and army's concerns into consideration, at least more than Serdyukov ever did. Looks like they are set on curtailing foreign arms purchases and acquiescence to the army's demands for newer hardware now, as opposed to making them wait for the next generation equipment that's in the pipeline.

 

[nevidimka]

The new AK 12 which I believe will be accepted by the Russian army to replace the AK74's. It is certainly and upgrade over the AK 74, but somehow the features seem quite current, and doesn't seem futuristic. But it should go well with the future combat system ratnik.

Perhaps like the evolving soldier combat system, the makers of kalashnikov could also progressively add more futuristic functions to it before it is adopted in 2014-2015 timeframe.

 

[Feanor]

The new AK 12 which I believe will be accepted by the Russian army to replace the AK74's. It is certainly and upgrade over the AK 74, but somehow the features seem quite current, and doesn't seem futuristic. But it should go well with the future combat system ratnik.

The AK-12 is not being tested with the Ratnik. An AK-74M variant is being tested with the ratnik, involving an RMS, a reflex sight, and a new 60 round mag. The Ratnik is also not a future combat system. In terms of what it's made up of, it's more like a current generation combat system.

The BMD-4 has been accepted into service.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Дожал таки Шаманов

There was talk that Shoigu would take the MIC and army's concerns into consideration, at least more than Serdyukov ever did. Looks like they are set on curtailing foreign arms purchases and acquiescence to the army's demands for newer hardware now, as opposed to making them wait for the next generation equipment that's in the pipeline.

Shamanov was always adamant about getting the BMD-4M accepted. The MoD were the ones against it. Given how much leeway he's been getting, my guess is he's decided to use the change of ministers to push through a contract.

 

[koxinga]

At Malaysia's 50th Independance day celebrations held in 1997, a local company displayed a laser guided artillery round that looked exactly like Krasnapol. I was later told by an Indian military writer that the round was a copy of Krasnapol that had been produced by a Chinese and North Korean company.

Malaysian 50th Independence day is 2007, not 1997 and the round is known as the Taming Sari XK98 and it is not a local company but the national defence agency, STRIDE.

Malaysia’s STRIDE Research Products | malaysiaflyingherald