Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

alexkvaskov

New Member
Some interesting pictures of different combat modules on different platforms from Rogozin's visit to MIC's factories in Perm'.

http://picru.net/images/2012/07/29/RUktl.jpg
http://picru.net/images/2012/07/29/OTpqL.jpg
http://picru.net/images/2012/07/29/uzdi4.jpg

Taken from here:
Визит Ð*огозина - YouTube

About last screen - might be disinformation, might be not. 2 out of 3 good sources say it's Armata.
P.S. If it's real one, someone head's in the appropriate department will get cut off, I guess =\

The turret looks similar to the Mk4 Merkava's.. what's up with the rectangular gun barrel? Some sort of clever adaptation of Nakidka? Wonder if that grenade launcher will make it into production, or if they'll just stick with an MG
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The turret looks similar to the Mk4 Merkava's.. what's up with the rectangular gun barrel? Some sort of clever adaptation of Nakidka? Wonder if that grenade launcher will make it into production, or if they'll just stick with an MG
Gur Khan claims that the combat modules use 45mm auto-cannons, although that wouldn't make much sense given the results they obtained from the 57mm AU-220 module, and the Armata is supposedly carrying the same auto-cannon, rather then a grenade launcher.

CAST says that the models shown are carrying the 57mm AGS-57 automatic grenade launcher, but the final production models may indeed end up using a 45mm auto-cannon. They also say that according to their sources the tank shown is not the Armata. Could it be a T-95 model?

Both sources claim that the Armata Heavy IFV will use the same combat module as the Kurganets and Bumerang.

http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2012/07/blog-post_29.html
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/302442.html?view=5826154#t5826154
 

Knjaz

New Member
CAST says that the models shown are carrying the 57mm AGS-57 automatic grenade launcher, but the final production models may indeed end up using a 45mm auto-cannon. They also say that according to their sources the tank shown is not the Armata. Could it be a T-95 model?

There's a chance of this, since it's Obj. 195 that used 30mm autocannon instead of standard 12.7mm machinegun.
But imho, main gun doesn't look like 152mm one.

+ the fact that Armata shouldn't be shown now. So it's indeed a big failure on security department part - and that's taking into account that all videos filmed on secure objects go through their censorship before journalists receive those. But there's still a chance of failure on their part.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Here's a few pics of the German field camp for 500 men that was purchased iirc last year. It's currently being used by the 9th Motor-Rifles Brigade. The photos were taken in Fall 2011, while the camp was being set up by German specialists. Up until now 2 have been purchased, and 6 more are planned for purchase, that way two will deployed in each MD on the main training grounds.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Ðовый полевой лагерь

And, among other news, now the number of Iveco LMV planned for purchase has risen to 3000 units (from 1775). They will be used by SpetzNaz and Recon bdes, as well as Para-Assault Bdes in the Land Forces. It's unclear whether the VDV will be getting them. A total of 150 are planned for delivery this year.

Минобороны Ð*Ф хочет в неÑколько раз увеличить закупки машин "Ð*Ñ‹ÑÑŒ" | Оборона и бпаÑноÑÑ‚ÑŒ | Лента новоÑтей "Ð*ИРÐовоÑти"
 

Knjaz

New Member
And, among other news, now the number of Iveco LMV planned for purchase has risen to 3000 units (from 1775). They will be used by SpetzNaz and Recon bdes, as well as Para-Assault Bdes in the Land Forces. It's unclear whether the VDV will be getting them. A total of 150 are planned for delivery this year.

Минобороны Ð*Ф хочет в неÑколько раз увеличить закупки машин "Ð*Ñ‹ÑÑŒ" | Оборона и безопаÑноÑÑ‚ÑŒ | Лента новоÑтей "Ð*ИРÐовоÑти"
A small correction here - MoD wants to increase amounts of Iveco (from ~700 to 3000), it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be allowed to.

Currently, there's a weird situation, when VDV command wants to put BMD-4 (the M version) into production immediately, and they consider it as an ideal vehicle that fully answers their needs (with exception of advances FCS for it, that comes in 2016 - if I'm not mistaken) while HQ/MoD wants to give them more Iveco's.

Plus, while Iveco lobby is strong, but so is Volk's, (for example, Rogozin is tending towards Volk) And RuA needs for such type of vehicle have been mentioned at about 5.000 units. Highly unlikely that Volk will be scrapped, esp. taking into account that State armament program is already written and accepted. All serious changes to it, especially changes like this, would go through upper levels.
The article itself states that Serdukov sent a request into government. There's no answer to this, yet.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
A small correction here - MoD wants to increase amounts of Iveco (from ~700 to 3000), it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be allowed to.

Currently, there's a weird situation, when VDV command wants to put BMD-4 (the M version) into production immediately, and they consider it as an ideal vehicle that fully answers their needs (with exception of advances FCS for it, that comes in 2016 - if I'm not mistaken) while HQ/MoD wants to give them more Iveco's.
I thought that a new BMD platform on the basis of the Kurganets was proposed?

They have been talking about turning the VDV into light infantry more, on the western model of paratroops, but they weren't very specific, and the VDV very much wants the heavy firepower provided by the BMD-4M. But the VDV has taken a very much "take the best now" approach, so their lack of desire to wait for a next-gen armored vehicle might be explained by that. For example they went with the Andromeda-D instead of waiting for Sozvezdie, and they tried to push through the Eleron 3 and 5 into state procurement for the VDV, while the MoD claimed that no domestic UAV meets their criteria. Given how the VDV was used in the 5-day war, a BMD-4M would be a much more appropriate vehicle for them.

Plus, while Iveco lobby is strong, but so is Volk's, (for example, Rogozin is tending towards Volk) And RuA needs for such type of vehicle have been mentioned at about 5.000 units. Highly unlikely that Volk will be scrapped, esp. taking into account that State armament program is already written and accepted. All serious changes to it, especially changes like this, would go through upper levels.
The article itself states that Serdukov sent a request into government. There's no answer to this, yet.
And the BMD-4M was supposedly in the GPV-2020, but has yet to make it into the annual GOZ. But consider that the currently purchased Tiger and UAZ Gusar vehicles aren't going to get retired any time soon. Sure the Gusars can get pushed off to secondary roles, replacing older UAZ jeeps, but the Tiger and Tiger-M which are not only in production, but are also rapidly developing additional specialized variants (like the UAV carrier, the EW platform, etc.) are unlikely to go away any time soon. So the future of the Volk doesn't look very good, especially since they just cut the proposed defence budget by a total of ~700 billion roubles over the next 3 years.

And given that large purchases like fighter jets, subs, nukes, etc. are on giant multi-year contracts, they will not feel the hit. Smaller programs, or programs that have yet to hit a production run are at much greater risk. Including the Volk which (one can argue) is essentially unnecessary. To be honest the Tiger isn't particularly necessary either. Realistically they should only be using one platform of the type, and if Iveco is the only one that meets the protection levels required, they should be ordering specialized vehicles on the Lynx chassis. But that's not going to happen.

EDIT: Well it looks like the Tornado-G was finally delivered to the 20th Motor-Rifles, South MD. They're on an Ural chassis, unlike the modified Grads that were delivered earlier on a Kamaz platform.
 
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alexkvaskov

New Member
Regarding personnel, what is the size of the current Russian navy and airforce, and what percentage are professionals in each? I've read that the entire submarine and something like 70% of the surface fleet are manned by professionals; what's the breakdown for the airforce?

The current ~190,000 professionals, are these solely in the ground forces, or include kontraktniks in the other branches as well?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Regarding personnel, what is the size of the current Russian navy and airforce, and what percentage are professionals in each? I've read that the entire submarine and something like 70% of the surface fleet are manned by professionals; what's the breakdown for the airforce?

The current ~190,000 professionals, are these solely in the ground forces, or include kontraktniks in the other branches as well?
They include contract soldiers in all branches. The current real size is ~650 000. They're gradually increasing size, by hiring additional contract soldiers, and forming new units, until they reach the mandated size of 1 million.

There are more photos of the models shown at Motovilikha. The "tank" in question is according to CAST a new BMPT variant rather then the MBT. The models in question are the ones using artillery and guns built by Motovilikha.

bmpd -

It appears that it's carrying both an automatic grenade launcher, and a presumably 30mm auto-cannon. Gur Khan suggests that this is a self-propelled assault tank, with high angle of elevation for the main gun, and a howitzer for armament, meant for support mechanized units in urban conditions. An advancement of the OKR Vepr (a M-392 howitzer without auto-loader, on the T-90M chassis) to the Armata chassis.

http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2012/08/blog-post_1.html

What's also very interesting is that the Tigr in the leaked photos has a mortar mounted on it. In other words it's a self-prop mortar on the Tigr chassis, for perspective recon and SpetzNaz Bdes.

There's also some interesting info about the 45mm telescopic autocannon project, which is potentially the next-gen autocannon for all 3 platforms.

http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2012/08/45.html
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/i/_/i_korotchenko/DSC05608.JPG
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-w41rakXKGzk/UBmRUwzPGkI/AAAAAAAADws/hzWlRbly6gU/s1600/005.jpg

From the photos it's clear that at least two separate projects are going forward, but which will end up in the new combat modules is anyone's guess, if any at all.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The T-90AK is undergoing trials right now, and will likely participate in the Caucus-2012 exercises. This is a command variant, vastly superior to the T-90K variant, carrying elements of the ESU TZ Sozvezdie.

http://vestnik-rm.ru/news-4-2292.htm

There have been no news regarding the status of ESU Sozvezdie for a while now, and this is an indirect sign that the system is nearing completion, with individual elements of it being close to state trials. This is also (to the best of my knowledge) the first time that a piece of the system not meant for the motor-rifles, is discussed with any level of concreteness. According to the source, the system in question is designed to facilitate command of a tank battalion. The elements used on the T-90AK will be tested by the 5th Motor-Rifles brigade (the traditional experimental unit in the Russian Army).
 

alexkvaskov

New Member
Approximately how many T-72s currently in service with the SV are equipped with ERA tiles? And how many T-72s are in service overall?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Approximately how many T-72s currently in service with the SV are equipped with ERA tiles? And how many T-72s are in service overall?
This is pure approximation, but ~ 2000 combat tanks in tank and motor-rifle units. However each unit also has a "combat training" set of tanks, which is typically 1 company or 1 platoon for every tank btln in the unit. There are also training centers that have a complement of tanks used for training purposes. These numbers are also based on the early 2011 numbers of motor-rifle and tank units. While we can be fairly certain that no new tank units have been formed, at least one new motor-rifle unit exists.

Finally there is a number of tank units in the Coastal troops. So realistically tank numbers are anywhere between 2500-4000. There's also a large number of tanks in storage, in mobilization depots, and a certain number that are awaiting repair and overhaul at the Central Repair Base (like all the T-90s produced in the early 90s). So total numbers of tanks could be even higher. Out of these tanks there is at least 300 T-90A tanks, mostly in the North Caucus, and a large number of T-80 both BV and U variants. There is also anywhere between 200 and 500 T-90 tanks from the early 90s, currently sitting at the Central Repair Base.
 

Klaus

New Member
Data on wikipedia says that there are 1200 T 72 and 1400 T 80. According to warfare.ru the SPV also have about 700 T 90. But I don't know how reliable these numbers are.
The GPV for the 2011-2020 timeframe states that only 2500 MBT will remain in service, these will be the T 90 and the new Armata battle tank (if the latter enter service on time).
 

Krijger

New Member
I don't think I would call T54/T55 mediocre since weren't they derived from war time T34?, which was a very good tank. What's incredible is that some T55s were noticed during Libyan conflict in 2011, now that's longevity.
The T-54/55 certainly was not mediocre; it was a lot better than the West gave it credit for at the time, too.
For example, it was only by chance that the British had a chance to inspect a T-54 during the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, when Hungarian rebels drove one onto the grounds of the British Embassy in Budapest. It was discovered that the 20 Pounder gun which had been used in the Centurion tank for the previous eight years or so was inadequate, leading to the development of the 105 mm L7 gun.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Data on wikipedia says that there are 1200 T 72 and 1400 T 80. According to warfare.ru the SPV also have about 700 T 90. But I don't know how reliable these numbers are.
The GPV for the 2011-2020 timeframe states that only 2500 MBT will remain in service, these will be the T 90 and the new Armata battle tank (if the latter enter service on time).
3300 Sounds like a realistic number, if we don't count mobilization depots.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
I have a question, according to wiki about the Mi-28: "The new design had a reduced transport capability (3 troops instead of 8) and omitted the cabin, to provide better overall performance and higher top speed."
Is this really true? Can the Mi-28 indeed transport 3 soldiers? But where? I've never seen a picture of the Mi-28 embarking/disembarking troops...
 

Klaus

New Member
That sounds rather unrealistic. Where should they be carried? The Mi 28 doesn't have an interior cabin like the Mi 24/35.
 

macman

New Member
Contender for worst design in a utility vehicle?

There are some concerns regarding the cramped interior and acceleration inferior to that of the GAZ Tigr; the turret doesn't look too impressive either.
Was the reasoning for the purchase of the Iveco Lynx's ever stated?
And is it a done deal in that it will be put into service in large quantities?

Looking at how cramped this thing is, to be blunt, it looks like a pile of cr*p, & I'd imagine the units that get assigned it will hate it.

Personally thought the whole point of a fast utility vehicle is to have your people mobile & ready to jump into action at a moments notice...
After an hour driving around in that thing, you'd be lucky to be able to move at all by the time you get there (unless they're planning to recruit a brigade of midgets). Everything about it is cramped, & most of the fancy equipment looks boderline unusable because you just don't have the room to use it properly.

Worst design I've seen in a while, & that's with some bloody awful stuff out there in competition. If this bloody thing is adopted, I forsee a lot purposeful sabotage in it's future, as the unit's assigned it make their feelings known...
---

Why didn't they go for the GAZ? It looks a hell of a lot roomier, & GAZ is supposed to have an excellent rep. & support base over there...
 
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