Russian Air Force News & Discussion

[Haavarla]

I don't think there will be a direct successor to the Tu 22M. This would be to costly as there are only 40 aircraft to be replaced. The two bombers, which are currently being developed, are the PAK DA and a light bomber, which will be unmanned.

The successor of Tu-22M is the Su-34.
Two different birds i know, but as things stand, the Su-34 are far cheaper to operate and can do more multirole missions.
And the Su-34 can carry heavy ordinance, if not the Kh-101, then the Kh-555.
Atleast its something of a capability..

The future RuAF cant't choose here.
The funding are far too small for that.
So we end up with Pak-Da, Su-34 and some future drone programs.
And cruise missiles ofcourse..

 

[Feanor]

The successor of Tu-22M is the Su-34.
Two different birds i know, but as things stand, the Su-34 are far cheaper to operate and can do more multirole missions.
And the Su-34 can carry heavy ordinance, if not the Kh-101, then the Kh-555.
Atleast its something of a capability..

The future RuAF cant't choose here.
The funding are far too small for that.
So we end up with Pak-Da, Su-34 and some future drone programs.
And cruise missiles ofcourse..

Until they physically start replacing the Tu-22M aircraft with Su-34, I'm not so sure. The Tu-22M3M program is being started right now, as well as a re-engine program. And Su-34 deliveries have already started. It will be through 2020 before even the Su-24 are phased out. So I'm not sure. Maybe it will happen in the 2025-2030 timeframe, but right now that's not at all obvious.

 

[nevidimka]

Some reports i read also puts the figures above 100, with the balance being kept in storage.
It would be wise to keep the Backfire's in use as log as they could with upgrades if they could not afford a successor, as its capabilities is still very important to RuAF and which i belive the Su34 could not offer. Currently the Backfire's act as a deterent to regions south of Russia, the pacific, Central; Asia and Black sea. These planes have the right range and capability to secure the borders to the couth from any potential aggressors and keeping those volatile regions south of the border in check.

Its would be better to keep upgrading the planes with more powerfull and more fuel efficient engines which could extend its range and capabilities further 20-30 years down the road.

 

[Haavarla]

Well yes, in the shorter time span i agree. Keep upgrading those bombers as long as there is some life hours left in them.

I have yet to see anything on new engines for Tu-22M though..

But in the long run they will get mothballed, and then we have to see whats left.

By the time Pak-Da become operational, how many Tu-160/95/22M are flying. That is whats important.

 

[Feanor]

By the time Pak-Da become operational, how many Tu-160/95/22M are flying. That is whats important.

That's not entirely correct. What matters is what numbers of PAK-DA the T.O. of that time will call for, and what numbers the budget of that time will be able to provide.

 

[Klaus]

@Feanor: It was just a news article, unfortunately there were no further details.

I thought the VMFs aircraft have already been transferred to the Air Force? After the war in 2008 there had been about 160 Tu-22M, so it could be that only 115 are left.
Anyway, the Su-34 will not completely replace the Tu-22, as the VVS will get only five or six regiments of the former (up to 144 aircraft), as Zelin mentioned in an interview some months ago, before his retirement.
The unmanned bomber, which Sukhoi is developing, will be in the 10 to 20 tons class, so it will also be unsuitable as a Tu-22-successor.
What's interesting is how many PAK DA will be acquired. The US currently plans to buy just 80 to 100 new long-range bombers from 2020 or so onwards, I can't imagine Russia will be able to buy more.

 

[Haavarla]

That's not entirely correct. What matters is what numbers of PAK-DA the T.O. of that time will call for, and what numbers the budget of that time will be able to provide.

Well the final numbers is interesting indeed.
But in the grand sceme of things it does not matter how many.

This is carved into stone:

Pak-Da will be the heavy strategic bomber, with the possibility to do other missions as well. Its where Kh-101 like clubs will end up.

There will not be anything between Pak-Da and Su-34.

In all fairness, Some 100-140 Su-34 should be enough for VVS consider the capabilities(Kh-555) by all the newer Su-30SM and Su-35S Flankers.

 

[Klaus]

Is the Su-30 really as capable in the air-to-ground role as the Su-34? The Su-34 is in fact a 20 year-old design, but so is the Su-30. And the Su-34 has been specifically developed for destroing ground targets (what doesn't mean that the Su-30 is not good at this, too).

 

[Feanor]

Is the Su-30 really as capable in the air-to-ground role as the Su-34? The Su-34 is in fact a 20 year-old design, but so is the Su-30. And the Su-34 has been specifically developed for destroing ground targets (what doesn't mean that the Su-30 is not good at this, too).

I suspect the answer is no, but given that we don't have sufficient details about either aircraft, it's hard to say.

 

[Haavarla]

Is the Su-30 really as capable in the air-to-ground role as the Su-34? The Su-34 is in fact a 20 year-old design, but so is the Su-30. And the Su-34 has been specifically developed for destroing ground targets (what doesn't mean that the Su-30 is not good at this, too).

It goes without saying, the Su-34 is far better suited for long mission A2G missions, as they have demonstated by flying it from West to East Russia.
It is better and less strained for the crew of Su-34.

But never the less, Both Su-30SM and Su-35S can do long range missions with Kh-555 if desired.

True the initial Su-34 design are old, it does not mean it is outdated, not for VVS requirements anyway. Most of the pre-dated system have been replaced with modern systems.
It is far more capable vs the Su-24M, thats for sure.

Combining EW with Su-34 should make it a tough little Hellduck, with exellent range compaired to other jets in the same ballgame, like:
F-15E, Growler, Tornardo and Su-24.

Sinse they started the Su-34 production just recently, the Su-34 will be around for quite some time.

 

[Klaus]

Did the VVS already receive new Su-34s this year? A batch of ten aircraft was planned to be handed over in 2012.

 

[Haavarla]

Your guess is a good as mine..
By my calculation there should be another batch of Hellducks out by year end.

I'm very interesting to see if NAPO gotten their production problems solved.
Next year they should at least deliver 12 units.. atleast.

 

[Feanor]

The Pantsyr-1S confirmed it's anti-cruise missile capability by shooting down actual cruise missile launched from a Tu-95MS bomber. It also conducted mobility and combat operations trials in conditions of the Far North. This is probably a precursor, to actual deployments of Pantsyrs, possibly in support of the S-400 unit deployed to Nakhodka.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The Pantsyr-1S confirmed it's anti-cruise missile capability by shooting down actual cruise missile launched from a Tu-95MS bomber. It also conducted mobility and combat operations trials in conditions of the Far North. This is probably a precursor, to actual deployments of Pantsyrs, possibly in support of the S-400 unit deployed to Nakhodka.

Nice to know, thanks.
Is the Pantsir S1 developed to complement/supplement the Tor M1,which is also capable to take down cruise missiles, or more to replace it?

 

[Klaus]

In the latest Air Forces Monthly there are several articles concerning the Russian Air Force:

A single An-140 and one Tu-154M have been delivered. The latter will be used as a VIP-transport and will be joined by another one soon.

The number of Ansat-U helicopters in service stands at 15 now, with 25 more to be delivered until 2020.

There is also a report on the future of the Su-24M. Currently there are 124 Su-24M/M2 bombers and 60-80 MR recce aircraft serving with 5 regiments, the Lipetsk centre and 5 recce squadrons.
Three units are receiving upgraded aircraft, on which the new Gefest SVP-24 navigation&attack suite is installed (not included in the M2-upgrade). The system increases precision (CEP for bomb launches decreased by 90%) and weapon range (unguided bombs can be released up to 6 km away from the target and while maneuvring, guided bombs can also be used now).
The system has been proposed for the Tu-22M, too, but so far only two aircraft have been eqipped with it. Apparently Tupolev is blocking a contract as it wants to upgrade the aircraft itself.

 

[Feanor]

Nice to know, thanks.
Is the Pantsir S1 developed to complement/supplement the Tor M1,which is also capable to take down cruise missiles, or more to replace it?

Neither. It was originally designed as a purely export design, with no real structure in the Russian military. The design was based off the Tunguska, but that's a PVO SV design. Meanwhile it was actively marketed as a companion SAM/AAA, for the larger theater and division level SAMs (S-300, and Buk-M1 class). So in Russia the branch to purchase it was the VVS (which now includes the former PVO Strany). The VVS originally had little idea of what to do with them, and the purchase was largely politically motivated. The increasing funding for the military, and the export success of the Pantsyr made it a good choice for the Russian military. After some trials, they ended up coming up with some scheme (the details I don't know) of including it in S-300/400 units as close-range defense.

Now that the question has arisen of 1) inter-service unification and 2) a single replacement for all S-60/ZSU-23-4/Tunguska-M1 units 3) a new SHORAD module for the VMF, the Pantsyr will become a universal SAM/AAA for the entire Russian military (similar to the way the S-300 became, with S-300V for the land forces, S-300P for the PVO Strany, and S-300F for the VMF.

The Tor-M1is the brigade-level SAM (along-side the OSA-AKM) with a btln of them in Motor-Rifles Brigades, supported by a mixed btln with a battery Tunguska/ZSU-23-4, a battery of Strela-10, and a battery of MANPADS infantry mounted in MT-LBs. The Pantsyr will probably replace the Tunguska and ZSU-23-4. The Strela-10M will likely be replaced by the Strela-10M4, and the hodge podge of current MANPADS will be replaced by a perspective MANPADS currently under development.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Why were so many AD systems developed for the SV? The Tor, Tunguska, Strela, Osa. Was it just because they couldn't be bothered to replace all old systems with newer ones, or just produced the necessary numbers of newer systems for front line and higher priority troops?

 

[Feanor]

Why were so many AD systems developed for the SV? The Tor, Tunguska, Strela, Osa. Was it just because they couldn't be bothered to replace all old systems with newer ones, or just produced the necessary numbers of newer systems for front line and higher priority troops?

There were several different types of GBAD for the PVO SV.

AAA: S-60 replaced by ZSU-23-4 replaced by Tunguska
Tac SAM: Strela-10
Regimental SAM: OSA replaced by Tor
Division SAM: Kub replaced by Buk
Theater SAM: S-300V

I heard the idea was that more different types would make them harder to jam.

 

[Eeshaan]

Hey guys.

I was wondering if there has been any update or news on the Mikoyan LMFS. The one said to function with a role similar to that of the F-35. Based on the cancelled 1.44 project.

I came acros this website here with the pics of the LMFS, but I cannot understand what is written, as it's in Russian. Seems like a website that has detailed info on both the PAKFA and LMFS :

ÏÀÊ ÔÀ ÌèÃ

P.S. That's interesting. It's nice to see that Russia had it's own 4.5-5th gen DELTA WING fighter in the works.

 

[Feanor]

Hey guys.

I was wondering if there has been any update or news on the Mikoyan LMFS. The one said to function with a role similar to that of the F-35. Based on the cancelled 1.44 project.

I came acros this website here with the pics of the LMFS, but I cannot understand what is written, as it's in Russian. Seems like a website that has detailed info on both the PAKFA and LMFS :

ÏÀÊ ÔÀ ÌèÃ

P.S. That's interesting. It's nice to see that Russia had it's own 4.5-5th gen DELTA WING fighter in the works.

Dead project according to my info. The current budget only allows for procurement of 60 PAK-FA fighters, while the Su-35S (a much less expensive 4.5th gen) and Su-34 are being purchased in much larger numbers, and the next carrier fighter is the MiG-29K, rather then a PAK-FA derivative. There's certainly no money for a second 5th gen.

Other news: a new targeting system for the Ka-52 just completed state trials. There was no news about a new Ka-52 variant, unlike the Mi-28N for which a Mi-28NM is already under development. This might indicate a Ka-52 upgrade variant. Or it might indicate that the current Ka-52s being delivered are incomplete.

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Also one of the EW pods for the Su-34 has completed development, but can't be mounted on the aircraft because it was developed without a mounting mechanism. In other words when ordering the OKR, the MoD didn't include a mounting mechanism in the tactical-technical requirements. They tried to sue the developer, but the court sided with the company. The whole situation borders on idiocy.

bmpd - "