Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

C-705 SSM Production in Indonesia

Contract for ToT (Tech Transfer) on producing Chinese C-705 SSM in Indonesia will commece soon. The whole process will be divided in to 3 Phases whre, the Phase 1 is semi-knock down assemby, Phase 2, is completely knock-down manufacturing, and Phase 3, complete manufacturing with further own R&D and upgrade capabilities.

From Jakarta Post.
China, RI begin missile talks | The Jakarta Post

China and Indonesia have started talks on the ambitious local production of C-705 anti-ship missiles
as part of Indonesia’s efforts to achieve independence in weapons production.

The defense cooperation reflects strengthening ties between both countries amid heightening tension in the South China Sea involving China and a number of Indonesia’s ASEAN neighbors.

Defense Ministry chief spokesman Brig. Gen. Hartind Asrin said that the initial talks were conducted during the first China-Indonesia defense industry cooperation meeting held in Jakarta on Wednesday.

The ministry’s defense potential director general Pos M. Hutabarat hosted the Chinese delegation which was led by Liu Yunfeng, a deputy director general at the Chinese State Administration for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense (SASTIND).

“The meeting discussed various efforts to improve cooperation between the defense industries of both countries,” Hartind said on Thursday. “We’ve already prepared an area for the [missile] production site that faces the open sea for trials.”

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Contract for ToT (Tech Transfer) on producing Chinese C-705 SSM in Indonesia will commece soon. The whole process will be divided in to 3 Phases whre, the Phase 1 is semi-knock down assemby, Phase 2, is completely knock-down manufacturing, and Phase 3, complete manufacturing with further own R&D and upgrade capabilities.

From Jakarta Post.
China, RI begin missile talks | The Jakarta Post

Thanks for the news, we indeed need to be able to produce an anti-ship missile by ourselves.

BTW, found a new picture of the KCR-60, hopefully not a repost.

 

[Bonza]

Thanks for the news, we indeed need to be able to produce an anti-ship missile by ourselves.

BTW, found a new picture of the KCR-60, hopefully not a repost.

Out of curiosity, why is an indigenous anti-ship missile so important? Or do you just mean local production of a licensed design?

I would have thought standardising on an AShM would be a priority too, isn't there quite a mix in service at the moment? I was under the impression that currently there's Chinese, French and Russian missiles in service, with the Harpoon having recently been retired... apologies if I'm wrong on this though, I may be getting my wires crossed.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Out of curiosity, why is an indigenous anti-ship missile so important? Or do you just mean local production of a licensed design?

I would have thought standardising on an AShM would be a priority too, isn't there quite a mix in service at the moment? I was under the impression that currently there's Chinese, French and Russian missiles in service, with the Harpoon having recently been retired... apologies if I'm wrong on this though, I may be getting my wires crossed.

Well, actually i mean the (licenced) production in our country. So, we dont need every time order a small amount of these expensive things from abroad anymore. But i wonder how many of the components of the C-705 will be build in our country and how many will be imported.

 

[STURM]

I was under the impression that currently there's Chinese, French and Russian missiles in service, with the Harpoon having recently been retired...

They already have the Yakhont, MM-40 and the C-801. Anyone know if the MM-38s on the Fatahillah class are still operated? These will probably be in need of replacement due to their age, even if they have been worked on by MBDA.

Well, actually i mean the (licenced) production in our country. So, we dont need every time order a small amount of these expensive things from abroad anymore. But i wonder how many of the components of the C-705 will be build in our country and how many will be imported.

I think the idea behind the whole exercise is the hope, that through a transfer of technology from China, a local company may eventually be able to come up with a local design in the future. The Chinese are very willing to 'share' technology and grant productions rights, which would be hard to achieve if say, the TNI-AL wanted to do the same with MM-40 Exocets or Harpoons. Malaysia had in the past been granted production rights from the Chinese, for up to 200 FN-6 MANPADs to be produced annually, if it agreed to buy the KS-1 long range missile. What I don't get is, what will the infrastructure that will be created to produce the missiles in Indonesia, be used for after the order for the TNI-AL has been completed - its not that the TNI-AL will be firing half its missiles annually during exercises and will need reloads on a regular basis.

 

[Ananda]

Out of curiosity, why is an indigenous anti-ship missile so important? Or do you just mean local production of a licensed design?

I would have thought standardising on an AShM would be a priority too, isn't there quite a mix in service at the moment? I was under the impression that currently there's Chinese, French and Russian missiles in service, with the Harpoon having recently been retired... apologies if I'm wrong on this though, I may be getting my wires crossed.

I believe Bonza, they will begin with licensing existing product first, and hoping to build local know how for further upgrading the local content and finally achieving total local productions. Well at least that's what they plan with several phases/stages in plan.

The first step with Chinese C-705 is the beginning move for missile standardizations. First stage seems will create know how to assemble the missiles with Chinese made kit. Later on they will try to add local content. This is the step that actually already taken by DI/IAe when they manufactured German SUT torpedoes. Begin with assembly, and now (if the DI sites correct) they already increase local content and conduct some modifications on the design.

The DI torpedoes program means presently all TNI-AL torps, are German designed (but locally produced) SUT. Seems it's the similar way they hoping to do on SSM/AsM with C-705.

Harpoon already inoperable with TNI-AL, the Harpoon come with Van Speijk, and during the last decade due to US embargo, the Harpoon continue to deteriorate and now considered inoperable. That's why there were Two kind of missiles that have been conducting trial aboard Van Speijk frigates (as Harpoon replacement); Russian Yakhont, and Chinese C-802. No official result yet (or if there already exists, no public confirmation yet), however some info from local forum or media spill-out indicating they (TNI-AL) preferred Yakhont than C-802.

The mainstay of TNI-AL AsM/SSM still Exocet MM-38 and C-705 aimed to replaced them. C-705 aimed to armed TNI-AL Fast Missiles Boats. While for Corvettes (like Sigma) TNI-AL Chose Exocet MM-40. In fact if we look the design of PKR 10514 (Sigma based Light Frigates), they also show will be equipped by Exocet MM-40.

Thus TNI-AL seems going with C-705 for FPB, whille Exocet MM-40 for Corvetes and Light Frigates. Two kind of missiles seems is good standardization for Asm/SSM.

Despites all the hypes with Yakhont, I don't know what the future of that missiles in TNI-AL. Rumors say they already took contract for 50 Yakhont (initial contract only for 4 for trial). But seems further use of Yakhont will also depend with TNI-AL capabilities on conducting mid-range guidance. Without sufficient ASW Helicopter in hand, that capabilities in my opinion still in 'large' question, thus rendered the usefulness of Yakhont class misiles with TNI-AL. The past Yakhont test, conducting to an 'old' ship with static position (albeit in the sea).

 

[STURM]

Despites all the hypes with Yakhont, I don't know what the future of that missiles in TNI-AL. Rumors say they already took contract for 50 Yakhont (initial contract only for 4 for trial).

Given that there are 6 Ahmad Yani class and each can be fitted with 4 Yakhonts, 50 would seem about right, enough for each ship and for reloads. If I had to guess, very few navies, actually buy enough reloads to equip all their ships as it would cost a bomb. I still don't get the part about the Type-209 allegedly being used for OTHT, not sure how this is technically possible or even if it is practical. I would imagine that the Boeing 737 MPAs and CN-235 would be much better suited for OTHT.

 

[Bonza]

Thanks for the responses guys, appreciate the clarification. C-704 seems like it would be a good fill-in for anti-ship capability on those vessels where Exocet's size wouldn't necessarily make it the best fit, however I don't know how much larger C-705 is, as publicly available numbers seem to indicate a much more capable missile. It certainly looks larger in the photos I've seen. Is it in the same size class as Exocet, or is it still a bit smaller? I'm just curious as I'm sure there's a reason for choosing two different kinds of missile, but was wondering if there's some overlap between the two. Hard to know anything for sure about the performance of C-705 (or the modern Exocet variants, for that matter) though, I suppose...

I agree with you on Yakhont, I don't fully understand how its range is meant to be utilised absent of appropriate off-board targeting (and I'm not sure how a submarine targeting solution would work at all). Added to the sheer size of the missile and I'm not sure where the advantage is compared to the equivalent payload of Exocets...

 

[STURM]

THard to know anything for sure about the performance of C-705 (or the modern Exocet variants, for that matter) though, I suppose...

When the RMN first ordered the MM-38 in the late 1970's for its Combattante and Spica M FACs, they were going for around USD80,000. After the Falklands, the price went up. I've been told that the latest M-40 goes for around 3 million Euro .

Added to the sheer size of the missile and I'm not sure where the advantage is compared to the equivalent payload of Exocets...

The only advantages I can think of is the size of the warhead which is guaranteed to sink anything smaller than a destroyer, its supersonic speed which would make harder for a hard kill solution and its long range. Due to the speed it travels at terminal phase, even if the warhead failed to ignite, I would think that it would still create considerable damage.

 

[Ananda]

Thanks for the responses guys, appreciate the clarification. C-704 seems like it would be a good fill-in for anti-ship capability on those vessels where Exocet's size wouldn't necessarily make it the best fit, however I don't know how much larger C-705 is, as publicly available numbers seem to indicate a much more capable missile. It certainly looks larger in the photos I've seen. Is it in the same size class as Exocet, or is it still a bit smaller? I'm just curious as I'm sure there's a reason for choosing two different kinds of missile, but was wondering if there's some overlap between the two. Hard to know anything for sure about the performance of C-705 (or the modern Exocet variants, for that matter) though, I suppose...

Well, from various Chinese source or Blogs, seems the C-705 is the latest family of C-7xx missiles, and besides call the miniaturized C-602, it's seems one of the smallest Chinese SSM so far. With warhead only around 110 kg (officially), it's smaller than 160+ kg warhead of Exocet.

I do not have the exact dimensions of C-705, but considering TNI-AL wants to put it on local build KCR-40 (with only 43 M length) and other FPB, I believe the dimensions is quite compact. It seems after trial-out the larger C-802 (on another local Fast Missiles Boat the Lursen based FPB-57), TNI-AL I believe not showing much interest on that and prefer C-705 instead. For C-705 the contractor claim it can reach 75 km (120 km with booster), but I tend to believe for PFB/KCR, TNI-AL will tend to installed non-booster variant, in order to keep the dimensions as compact as possible.
I see a booster variance picture in local forum and Chinese Blog, seems using booster will add another 0.5 - 0.75 m in length, which in my opinion will create problem if installed on compact FPB.

I agree with you on Yakhont, I don't fully understand how its range is meant to be utilised absent of appropriate off-board targeting (and I'm not sure how a submarine targeting solution would work at all). Added to the sheer size of the missile and I'm not sure where the advantage is compared to the equivalent payload of Exocets..

I still don't get the part about the Type-209 allegedly being used for OTHT, not sure how this is technically possible or even if it is practical. I would imagine that the Boeing 737 MPAs and CN-235 would be much better suited for OTHT.

You know guys, personally I also do not get the Yakhont for present TNI-AL conditions. The initial contract for 4 missiles (as trial-out) seems already confirmed by several source including SIPRI. The follow on 50 missiles contract seems in my book, still categorize as rumors.
Besides one Van Speijk Frigate (KRI OWA), I haven't found reliable information that confirm additional work has been done to the other 5 Van Speijk to be equipped with Yakhont VLS like KRI OWA did. In fact they have conducted C-802 trial on another Van Speijk (KRI A. Yani if not mistaken), since Installation for C-802 seem fit well with the station that used to house Harpoon (on the port side of the Frigates Funnel).

Thus even I said earlier, that TNI-AL seems preferred Yakhont compared to C-802, but until I see solid evidence that the rest of Van Speijk frigates being prepared to be installed by Yakhont VLS, I still reserve my doubt on the future of Yakhont with TNI-AL. After all those 6 Van Speijk, are the only TNI-AL asset that can effectively installed Yakhont.

As for 209 use as OTHT, the explanation from Naval Chief that they use the subs for guidance on Yakhont trial, I suspect not as real mid range guidance like OTHT, but more as confirmation on the location of the target, and relay the position to the mother Frigate, which then conduct the mid-range guidance by herself. After all, in the trial the target is stationary (albeit in the ocean).

TNI-AL for some time already told media, that they plan to acquire 9-11 ASW Helicopters that can also be used for anti Surface operations. Local Forum already buzzing that the helicopters mentioned were ex RAN Super Seasprite. However seems the Kiwi which will take those Seasprite, I do not know, which other potential ASW Helo that TNI-AL now aimed.

If TNI-AL do conduct further work for the rest of Van Speijk for Yakhont VLS installation, plus if they really procured those planned ASW Helo, then I believe Yakhont can have future/usefulness with TNI-AL.

 

[Ananda]

3 years ago on this thread (post # 85), I put a concept from Indodefence Dec 2008 of Trimaran/Catamaran FPB from Nortsea Boats (a local company in East Java with some relations to Swedish family ownership).

This days the company official site already put 3 concept of 63 M Trimaran boats for FPB, CG, and SAR : North Sea Boats - 63m Offshore Patrol Vessel Catamaran
The company and some local forumers/blog claim that they already near completion of first Trimaran FPB prototype for Indonesian Navy from total 4 contract.

The Trimaran FPB was claimed as part of 24 FPB plan to be build locally with the rest 20 will consists of Palindo KCR 40 and PAL KCR 60.

 

[Ananda]

Local shipyard will build 1 Oiler and 2 LST for Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL). From Ministry of Defence site: Wamenhan Resmikan Pembangunan Tiga Kapal Perang

Using Google Translate:

Jakarta, DMC - Deputy Secretary of Defense (Wamenhan) RI Gen. Sjafrie accompanied Kemhan Laksdya Sumartono TNI and TNI Laksdya Wakasal Marsetyo as well as a number of military officers and the Force Headquarters, Tuesday (31/7), inaugurated the construction of three ships at Dockyard PT. Dock and Boating (DKB) Kodja Bahari, in Jakarta, which is marked with the laying of the keel (keel laying) the construction of one unit type warship Liquid Petroleum Support (BCM) and the first steel cutting (first steel cutting) for the construction of two ships kinds of Landing Ship Tank (LST)

Meanwhile, President Director of PT Dok Kodja Bahari Riry Syeried Jetta in readiness reports completion of the construction of the ship - the ship is delivered, that the ships of a length of 122.40 BCM meters, 16.50 meters wide, has a maximum speed of 18 knots and a capacity of liquid petroleum materials as much as 5500 m3 to be completed and submitted in December 2013. Development pattern of the ship using Multiyard Single Construction Method with Integrated Hull Construction Outfitting system & Painting, which is organized in three shipyards in Jakarta are performed in parallel as well as the construction of boat building has a total of 550 tonnes from 1770 tonnes. As for the length of the ship LST 117 meters, 16.40 meters wide with a maximum speed of 16 knots, is projected to transport the tank is not only the type of BMP 3F but also for the caliber of Leopard tanks.

Several thing that point out on the this deal:
1. It's the first LST and Naval Specs Oilers that being build by Indonesian local shipyard. The local shipyard already have experience for commercial tankers up to 30,000 DWT, but (if not mistaken) this is the first Tankers with Military Specs from Local Shipyard. The Min-def site show a picture of Tanker Model, which seems for me show influence of existing TNI-AL ex RFA Tanker.
2. The constructions method conducted by modular Multi-Shipyard model, also seems the first also in Local Shipyard (at least for Military job).
3. The LST also will be the largest LST for TNI-AL. It will also have the strengthen capability to transport MBT. Other existing LST (ex East German, and South Korean ones), has only capabilities to transport Light Tanks and Light Armor vehicles.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

3 years ago on this thread (post # 85), I put a concept from Indodefence Dec 2008 of Trimaran/Catamaran FPB from Nortsea Boats (a local company in East Java with some relations to Swedish family ownership).

This days the company official site already put 3 concept of 63 M Trimaran boats for FPB, CG, and SAR : North Sea Boats - 63m Offshore Patrol Vessel Catamaran
The company and some local forumers/blog claim that they already near completion of first Trimaran FPB prototype for Indonesian Navy from total 4 contract.

The Trimaran FPB was claimed as part of 24 FPB plan to be build locally with the rest 20 will consists of Palindo KCR 40 and PAL KCR 60.

Finally the official announcement published: http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/403979_257616317675161_1247512679_n.jpg

However no official details on weapon or sensor specs yet. Hopefully not downgrade again like the KCR 40 CIWS.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesian Trimaran FPB

Pictures uploaded from Local forum and Radar Banyuwangi News.

According to the various sources (navy and Lundin sites), This Trimaran FPB (will be named KRI Klewang) will be able to take missiles with concealed placement in the superstructure. The Navy info says this is the first Trimaran FPB from 4 already in the order.

Well in my view, future order will much depend on the actual performance of this FPB. This Lundin design together with Palindo KCR 40 and PAL KCR 60 hoped by the Navy will be the standard Indonesian FPB in the future. This design also the first of Indonesian Navy FPB claimed to be completely based on Composite materials.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

This design also the first of Indonesian Navy FPB claimed to be completely based on Composite materials.

The first boat made from fiber carbon composite exactly, since KRI Tedong Naga (90 tonne patrol boat) and its sisters were already made from composite but fiber glass composite. This KRI Tedong Naga as i recall in 2005 collided with Malaysian Navy boat made from steel in Ambalat.

Fiber carbon is much stronger than fiber glass and so does the price.

 

[Ananda]

KRI Klewang Launching Video from Metro TV on You Tube: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3QSKZp4EP4"]PELUNCURAN PERDANA KRI KLEWANG (TRIMARAN) 31-8-12. - YouTube[/nomedia]

Metro TV (Local version of Indonesian Fox News), claim that the vessels is one of the most innovative naval vessels in the world (well it's an Indonesian versions of Fox) .

Lundin company it self (North Sea Boats :North Sea Boats ) build by Jon Lundin (a Swedish Nationals) with his wife Liza (an Indonesian Nationals), which at first specialize on RHIBS, Catamaran Coastal Patrol vessels and other specialized-small sport vessels. Lundin him self coming from family of Swedish shipbuilders, and this project is the biggest that his company conduct so far.

The interview conducted by His wife Liza, and She admitted that the vessels used extensive 'overseas/international' resources in training local resources manufacturing the vessels. In my opinion Jon Lundin use his Swedish Network and Technology on conducting this project.

Also as I've put on my previous post, she acknowledged (not straight away) that further contract from Indonesian Navy will much depend on the performance on this first vessels. Showing in my book, that this vessels is Technological Prototype/Demonstrator. It will be capable for Naval gun and missiles, but the result of KRI Klewang trial and operational performance will determine further batch of this kind of vessels within Indonesian operation.

The first boat made from fiber carbon composite exactly, since KRI Tedong Naga (90 tonne patrol boat) and its sisters were already made from composite but fiber glass composite.

Well Fiber Glass constructions with Indonesian Ship/Boat builder has been around since the 80's. However Fiber Glass materials even it's clasified as composite, is relative simple process. But anyway, I agree I should put Fiber Carbon Composite materials on my previous post, since the technology on using and treatment of this kind composite materials technics for Indonesian builders still not entirely mastered by them yet. Lundin North Sea Boats can be considered pioneer within Indonesian ship building Industry on mastering this kind of materials.

 

[Ananda]

Got it from Local forum (Kaskus from forumers id Kenyot 10).. KRI Klewang already in the water plus official Press Release from the Builder (North Sea Boats). Based on the Press Release, the Builder collaborate with several overseas sources ranging from Scandinavia, German, and China (for Materials). The design collaborated with New Zealand Naval Architects LOMOcean Ltd.

Propulsion using 4 MAN V12 Diesel coupled with MJP 550 water jets ( I believe this made the vessels First Indonesian Naval ships propelled by water jets and not conventional propeller). With only 1.2 M draft made this vessels suitable for Indonesian inshore/littoral operations. The builder claim it has patrol range of 2000 nm or 10 days at sea (according another source).

The Builders say KRI Klewang as the first ships, will use Chinese weapons system including CIWS and Missiles. Local forum speculated that it will be Chinese C-705 missiles with either Type 630 or Type 730 CIWS. Although the builder claim that the vessels actually builded with 40 mm - 57 mm gun in mind. With the builders Scandinavian/Sweden pedigree, I do believe they have Bofors gun in mind (which basically 40 mm and 57 mm Bofors gun both already operational with TNI-AL).

However with TNI-AL seems now already in cooperation with China on developing weapons suit for the Next Gen FPB (Palindo KCR 40 and PAL KCR 60), thus as part of plan FPB, North Sea Boats Trimaran I believe will be using China originated system also, to ensure standardization throughout TNI-AL next gen FPB.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

The Builders say KRI Klewang as the first ships, will use Chinese weapons system including CIWS and Missiles. Local forum speculated that it will be Chinese C-705 missiles with either Type 630 or Type 730 CIWS. Although the builder claim that the vessels actually builded with 40 mm - 57 mm gun in mind. With the builders Scandinavian/Sweden pedigree, I do believe they have Bofors gun in mind (which basically 40 mm and 57 mm Bofors gun both already operational with TNI-AL).

However with TNI-AL seems now already in cooperation with China on developing weapons suit for the Next Gen FPB (Palindo KCR 40 and PAL KCR 60), thus as part of plan FPB, North Sea Boats Trimaran I believe will be using China originated system also, to ensure standardization throughout TNI-AL next gen FPB.

As mentioned in facebook page: 63m FAST MISSILE TRIMARAN - PRESS RELEASE | Facebook

It is indeed will use Chinese system (CSOC and CPMIEC). However the number of missile carried are up to 8 C-705 AShM missiles, more than previous information that was up only to 4 missiles. If the trimaran can carry 8 missiles I wonder what role it will play, since it has more missiles than most of TNI boats.

The company seems also eager to offer the trimaran to other country where they mention about the versatility of system installed. It can carry other missiles like Exocet, RBS, etc.

 

[Ananda]

It is indeed will use Chinese system (CSOC and CPMIEC). However the number of missile carried are up to 8 C-705 AShM missiles, more than previous information that was up only to 4 missiles. If the trimaran can carry 8 missiles I wonder what role it will play, since it has more missiles than most of TNI boats.
.

Whether 4 or 8, basically it's still a FPB. In ScandAsia.Com, Jhon Lundin claim with the vessels 'low signature' and carbon fibre materials it can confidently claim as stealth charaterisrics vessels. Let say his claim can be hold, a stealth FPB means still FPB.

In this forum and several other forum, many discussions has been held on the merit of FPB on todays battlefield. For me, the merit of FPB for archipelago nation like Indonesia is rest on hit and run tactics, using the full benefit of archipelago nature.

 

[STURM]

In this forum and several other forum, many discussions has been held on the merit of FPB on todays battlefield. For me, the merit of FPB for archipelago nation like Indonesia is rest on hit and run tactics, using the full benefit of archipelago nature.

Experience from WW2 in operations conducted by RN MTBs and Kriegsmarine S-Boots showed that light naval vessels like FPBs and FACs are fine as long as they do not come into contact with larger surface units and airpower. Though FPBs in TNI-AL service will indeed be useful for hit and run attacks and sea denial in choke points, success will be very dependent on cooperation provided by air units and other assets.