Royal New Zealand Air Force

dave_kiwi

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Ok Mr C it's a Norwegian Blue it's deceased etc.

Well it looks like that they are being disposed of. NZ6464 has turned up at the Ashburton Aviation Museum sans engine and the post I read elsewhere said that from now on any organisation that wants them must arrange for the dismantling, transport etc., of the aircraft. NZDF will apparently give no support. It's a real shame. Wonder if we'll see one flying in the warbird scene like the Blunty.
Doubt it - and that's from an early posting in the same place as the picture of NZ6464.

Look for "Barnsey's" posting re how dam FOD sensitive the Macchi's viper is -- way more than the Blunty's. Which, if I understand correctly may have put an end to the off base (Ohakea) deployment's - i.e. Falcon's Roost ??? in the mid to late 90's.

ok here's a tibit from you know where, "An airworthy Aermacchi at Hood?"

quote:

Good intentions, and I hope they can do it..... but I feel they'll be hamstrung by lack of engine spares and the large investment in airport FOD control that it requires. Anything larger than a grain of sand down the intake and their loan aircraft will be returned to the RNZAF in a million pieces.

Ohakea had nightly sweeping of Rwy 09/27 and this was the only runway in the country authorised for continuous Aermacchi ops. If we landed anywhere else (including OH Rwy 15/33), the aircraft was not allowed to be flown again until a tactile inspection of the compressor blades leading edges was performed to ensure there were no nicks on the blades, as these would quickly lead to blade failure. When we deployed somewhere, the maintenance pack-up had a FOD sweeper and a duty crew assigned to regularly sweep the runway and apron. It was not a FOD tolerant engine at all!


So, was wrong about the deployments, but sounds like a nightmare compare to what the Blunty was like.
 
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ngatimozart

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Thanks Dave. Hadn't realised about the FOD problem with the macchis Viper engine. Makes me wonder if 65s Kaitaia flame out & subsequent crew bang out & crash was caused by ingestion of a (small) budgie then. Ah well I'll just have to go and terrorise some more Warsaw Pact tanks with an A4K in Strike Fighters 2 then.
 

Lucasnz

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Thanks Dave. Hadn't realised about the FOD problem with the macchis Viper engine. Makes me wonder if 65s Kaitaia flame out & subsequent crew bang out & crash was caused by ingestion of a (small) budgie then. Ah well I'll just have to go and terrorise some more Warsaw Pact tanks with an A4K in Strike Fighters 2 then.
I seem to recall that the the Kaitaia crash was caused by one of the turbine blades failing. It was a design flaw. There is are you tube video somewhere on the crash from failure to ejection.
 

ngatimozart

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I seem to recall that the the Kaitaia crash was caused by one of the turbine blades failing. It was a design flaw. There is are you tube video somewhere on the crash from failure to ejection.
Yes, I went back and had a check so I apologise for my mistake. I believe a zero stage compressor blade broke off and went through the engine. This is the link to the video from the HUD, about 8 minutes of video. RNZAF MB-339CB Ejection HUD Tape - YouTube
 

rjmaz1

New Member
New zealand should purchase a few A330 MRTT's to replace the C-130H's when they retire.

They can tap into the RAAF servicing and pilot training..

They are the most practical aircraft for New Zealand.

New Zealand in any medium scale conflict would only provide a token force of ground troops and light vehicles. The A330's can transport New Zealand troops and their supplies long distances into theatre (not front lines) freeing up USAF and RAAF aircraft. They come with the added bonus of being able to refuel coalition aircraft.

It is probably the only aircraft that would allow New Zealand to be truely independant. Even though the strength and firepower of their military will be weak at least it is independant one.

To think 5 years ago before the C-17 purchase the RAAF was hitching a ride on USAF airlifters.
 

ngatimozart

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New zealand should purchase a few A330 MRTT's to replace the C-130H's when they retire.

They can tap into the RAAF servicing and pilot training..

They are the most practical aircraft for New Zealand.

New Zealand in any medium scale conflict would only provide a token force of ground troops and light vehicles. The A330's can transport New Zealand troops and their supplies long distances into theatre (not front lines) freeing up USAF and RAAF aircraft. They come with the added bonus of being able to refuel coalition aircraft.

It is probably the only aircraft that would allow New Zealand to be truely independant. Even though the strength and firepower of their military will be weak at least it is independant one.

To think 5 years ago before the C-17 purchase the RAAF was hitching a ride on USAF airlifters.
A couple of issues. Can't fit an NZLAV or NH90 inside a KC30 MRTT nor does it have rough field capability, so it definitely no good doing humanitarian work in the Pacifica Islands away from major airports. Also not much good for moving other palletised military cargo around that NZDF needs moved. Secondly where is the money going to come from. At what half a billion NZ$ each aint never gonna happen. Our pollies would never go for it, no matter how glowing the merits of it.

Methinks you know little about NZDF and what it does and how it does things with what it has. It punches way above its weight especially when you consider that NZ has a population about the size of or slightly smaller than Sydney, NSW. You need to have a read back through this thread to gain an understanding of what's been said and get a feel for whats a happening.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
A couple of issues. Can't fit an NZLAV or NH90 inside a KC30 MRTT nor does it have rough field capability, so it definitely no good doing humanitarian work in the Pacifica Islands away from major airports.
New Zealand doesnt need to transport via air armoured vehicles or helicopters to Pacific islands with short runways. The range of a hercules with such heavy cargo makes it useless. For transporting aid in peacetime civilian aircraft can do this fine.

In terms of a medium scale conflict on the other side of the world the A330 is much more useful than a short squadron of fighter jets that some suggested here.

Troops need to be rotated, food and supplies need to be transported on standard pallets. An A330 can carry the same amount of pallets as a hercules while still carrying passengers, all while travelling twice as far and using civilian direct flight paths.

Pallets can fit in the A330 no problem.
You need to have a read back through this thread to gain an understanding of what's been said and get a feel for whats a happening.
My first response in this thread is on page 1. That was 6 years ago.

New zealand punchs above its weight, but in a large coalition force it will be a tiny part.
 

ngatimozart

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New Zealand doesnt need to transport via air armoured vehicles or helicopters to Pacific islands with short runways. The range of a hercules with such heavy cargo makes it useless. For transporting aid in peacetime civilian aircraft can do this fine.

In terms of a medium scale conflict on the other side of the world the A330 is much more useful than a short squadron of fighter jets that some suggested here.

Troops need to be rotated, food and supplies need to be transported on standard pallets. An A330 can carry the same amount of pallets as a hercules while still carrying passengers, all while travelling twice as far and using civilian direct flight paths.

Pallets can fit in the A330 no problem.
My first response in this thread is on page 1. That was 6 years ago.

New zealand punchs above its weight, but in a large coalition force it will be a tiny part.
Ok fair enough but this topic has been thrashed through pretty thoroughly. However what you suggest does not meet the requirements of the 2010 Defence White Paper nor the Joint Amphibious Task Force 2015 that is being implemented now. There is a requirement to insert forces and their equipment into a combat zone and a KC30 MRTT or similar, certainly cannot do that. The NZG found out the hard way when it tried to fly the B757s into Kabul when ISAF refused clearance because they did not meet the NATO - ISAF self protection requirements. So a C130H is used to fly Kiwi personnel from the Persian Gulf EO to Kabul and Bamiyan. No way would a KC30 MRTT fly into Bamiyan. Every insurgent worth his salt would be wanting to shoot down such a valuable and expensive target. The key to the JATF and Chief of Defence vision 2035, approved by Cabinet, is the ability of the JATF operating unilateraly of as part of a larger force. NZDF has had the experience of people with agendas denying it the basic tools of its trade with very serious consequences. The RNZAF has already been castrated by a bunch of pollies and what you suggest is just another form of that. Your suggestions would not be in NZs best interest politically, diplomatically nor defence wise. We ask our people to place their lives on the line for us. We have a moral responsibility to give them the best kit and support we can; bluntly speaking the tools to do the job.
 
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ngatimozart

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Rumour has it that first of six "new" Hawker Beechcraft B200s has arrived at in country yesterday and is now at Hawker Pacifics Ardmore facility. Apparently this is first aircraft under new contract and rumour says that these aircraft are destined for RNZAF. Anyone know anything? I thought the current lease arrangement was extended late last year.
 

MrConservative

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Rumour has it that first of six "new" Hawker Beechcraft B200s has arrived at in country yesterday and is now at Hawker Pacifics Ardmore facility. Apparently this is first aircraft under new contract and rumour says that these aircraft are destined for RNZAF. Anyone know anything? I thought the current lease arrangement was extended late last year.
The current lease runs through to the end of July iirc - so there maybe something in it. I have not really focused my interest really on who what where and when regarding the B200 lease in recent times and I haven't heard any whispers - then again as deals are nearing negotiated closure things do run silent. A year ago when Mapp was the Minister they were seriously interested in the B350 and with around four - five airframes depending on budgets available as well as actual RNZAF ownership. A new Minister, some new key personnel, further time for tasking studies to pinpoint final requirements, and as well as a refreshed lease offer that is fiscally attractive, one can see the balance tipping from more of a slightly smaller similar platform that is leased than fewer of a slightly larger one.

Ngati can you find out if the one that has arrived in NZ has the winglets? That might be telling. Also is the one at HP ardmore a new model 250 or nearly new 200's?

If they are leased new B250's with winglets and there is six of them coming that would be a job well done if is it is a substantive lease contract. Otherwise it may just be a short term 1 - 3 year lease with newish aircraft whilst the money is tight.
 

dave_kiwi

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3 SQUADRON - Busy times

What with 3 Iroquois up in Samoa, now it seems another 3 are on the move - off to PNG to assist with forth coming general election. Not too bad for a "aircraft" in it's twilight of service, and for a "small time" air force <sic>.

New Zealand Defence Force Helicopters To Help with... | Stuff.co.nz

NZDF - Tropical training for Royal New Zealand Air Force helicopters

Thinking further - once the Iroquois go -- will the NH-90s be deployed as much ??? One gets the feeling the number of frames ain't going to be enough -- unless the A-109 is also deployed -- and at such short notice.
 

ngatimozart

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The current lease runs through to the end of July iirc - so there maybe something in it. I have not really focused my interest really on who what where and when regarding the B200 lease in recent times and I haven't heard any whispers - then again as deals are nearing negotiated closure things do run silent. A year ago when Mapp was the Minister they were seriously interested in the B350 and with around four - five airframes depending on budgets available as well as actual RNZAF ownership. A new Minister, some new key personnel, further time for tasking studies to pinpoint final requirements, and as well as a refreshed lease offer that is fiscally attractive, one can see the balance tipping from more of a slightly smaller similar platform that is leased than fewer of a slightly larger one.

Ngati can you find out if the one that has arrived in NZ has the winglets? That might be telling. Also is the one at HP ardmore a new model 250 or nearly new 200's?

If they are leased new B250's with winglets and there is six of them coming that would be a job well done if is it is a substantive lease contract. Otherwise it may just be a short term 1 - 3 year lease with newish aircraft whilst the money is tight.
Just came through from elsewhere Mr C
Okay, to avoid all the suspense and speculation... Yes, it is for 42sqn. It is one of 5 'newer' b200 king airs that will be arriving to replace the current ones as the contract was up for renewal. They will be maintained by hawker pacific in the same way that aeromotive have been looking after the current ones for the last 15 or so years. They are receiving some mods to bring them up to the RNZAFs requirements. They are not part of any inshore patrol plan or anything, just more modern flight decks to allow appropriate training for the upgraded P-3/c-130 etc.
Link to news story & photos about 1st aircraft arrival: MRC Aviation: King Air 200 N635SF arrives in New Zealand
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
New Zealand doesnt need to transport via air armoured vehicles or helicopters to Pacific islands with short runways. The range of a hercules with such heavy cargo makes it useless. For transporting aid in peacetime civilian aircraft can do this fine.

In terms of a medium scale conflict on the other side of the world the A330 is much more useful than a short squadron of fighter jets that some suggested here.

Troops need to be rotated, food and supplies need to be transported on standard pallets. An A330 can carry the same amount of pallets as a hercules while still carrying passengers, all while travelling twice as far and using civilian direct flight paths.

Pallets can fit in the A330 no problem.
Having A330 MRTT enter RNZAF would be fine, if and only if, other NZDF needs are met first. Amongst those needs being met first would be tactical/strategic lift.

Any A330 MRTT in RNZAF service could potentially tap into the civilian A330 support market, and/or the RAAF support (which itself is expected to draw upon some civilian support...) However, such an aircraft would be a strategic airlifter for personnel/palletized cargo. As such, it could only properly serve as a replacement for the B757's currently in RNZAF service.

In the grand scheme of things, such a purchase would make little sense, since with the exception of AAR, all the capabilities of the A330 MRTT can be fufilled by chartered Air NZ airliners if such airlift is required, without the initial and ongoing expenses associated with operating such large civilian airliners.

In order for such aircraft to operate in mid- to high-level threat environments (flying into Afghanistan for instance) a comprehensive self-defence protection suite would be required. Something which the RNZAF has already run into a problem with utilizing the B757, and such pieces of kit are expensive. The A330 aircraft, plus modifications to make it into a MRTT are expensive, and IIRC there is still a shortage of available A330 airframes given the orders booked.

Also the aircraft is big, larger than anything else the RNZAF currently operates and also requires a significantly sized runway to operate from. Given that the sort of low threat regional operations the RNZAF is likely to engage in would be various types of disasters (earthquake, eruption, civil unrest, tsunami, tropical cyclone, flooding, etc) the expectation of finding a functional runway of sufficient length to land or take off in an A330 in would be slim. Making the issue worse is that an A330 does not AFAIK have a RoRo cargo capability, while most military airlifters do have rear cargo ramps. This means that even if an A330 is able to land, it might be unable to unload any palletized cargo if cargo handling vehicles and/or equipment is damaged or otherwise unavailable. Relating to cargo, an A330 MRTT is not suited to handle outsized cargo. This often means military vehicles, which are sometimes airlifted into and out of theatres of operation. While the RNZAF is not going to be doing that constantly, simply because it lacks sufficient airlift, there are going to be times when airlifting vehicles is the best or perhaps only way to get them where needed.

Take the disaster response/recovery following the Christchurch quake. Military cargo aircraft were able to airlift engineering and emergency response vehicles in place, and could also be used to aircraft containerized hospital units, shower points, industrial power generators, etc. Unfortunately, the RNZAF would find the A330 MRTT rather unpalatable (unpalletable?) since it would be unable to airlift any of the mentioned items and other outsized cargoes.

-Cheers
 

MrConservative

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Just came through from elsewhere Mr C


Link to news story & photos about 1st aircraft arrival: MRC Aviation: King Air 200 N635SF arrives in New Zealand

Thanks for that Ngati. It was what I expected really as new B250's even leased would get a bit of RNZAF PR fanfare. So essentially a lease renewal without an additional 6th airframe (if that is the actual case) and the aircraft replaced (if that is the result as well). Business as usual then ....

P.S
How long is the lease for? Are they they stalling and pushing everything back on to later dates? If that is the case then they are stonewalling a whole capability (Short - medium range maritime patrol) that they have said in the past was an important capability gap.
 
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ngatimozart

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Thanks for that Ngati. It was what I expected really as new B250's even leased would get a bit of RNZAF PR fanfare. So essentially a lease renewal without an additional 6th airframe (if that is the actual case) and the aircraft replaced (if that is the result as well). Business as usual then ....
No probs and the source also said this later "When the 'Advanced Trainer' turns up they will take over the advanced parts of wings course.
The Kingair's will continue (I think it's a 5 year lease) to carry out multi-engine training and could possibly pick up anything else that they may have capacity for (possibly nav/awo/aws training??)."

Haven't heard anything about the advanced trainer so would presume that it is a decision hasn't been made yet on manufacturer and I think that because of present financial circumstances it will be some way off before an announcement is even made.
 

MrConservative

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No probs and the source also said this later "When the 'Advanced Trainer' turns up they will take over the advanced parts of wings course.
The Kingair's will continue (I think it's a 5 year lease) to carry out multi-engine training and could possibly pick up anything else that they may have capacity for (possibly nav/awo/aws training??)."

Haven't heard anything about the advanced trainer so would presume that it is a decision hasn't been made yet on manufacturer and I think that because of present financial circumstances it will be some way off before an announcement is even made.
A 5 year lease - arghhh. They are walking away from short-medium patrol capability. Classic procrastination. A 3 year lease term would have made sense but another half a decade. That really surprises me.

Looks as though all the work that Mapp per policy position stuff with respect to the DWP did prior to his retirement is being passed over at the Cabinet level as BE and his moneyhawks are closing things down. It has been coming up 3 years since the DWP consultations and 2 years since the document release and the process is seemingly stalled. A "Claytons" DWP it is turning out to be with a further 3 year wait until the real one.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
What with 3 Iroquois up in Samoa, now it seems another 3 are on the move - off to PNG to assist with forth coming general election. Not too bad for a "aircraft" in it's twilight of service, and for a "small time" air force <sic>.

New Zealand Defence Force Helicopters To Help with... | Stuff.co.nz

NZDF - Tropical training for Royal New Zealand Air Force helicopters

Thinking further - once the Iroquois go -- will the NH-90s be deployed as much ??? One gets the feeling the number of frames ain't going to be enough -- unless the A-109 is also deployed -- and at such short notice.
Pretty sure its not another 3 but the samoan 3 just redeploying therefore 8 NH90s would have covered and may have only required 2 to be sent due to larger capacity, flight time and speed. Also the PNG elections was not short notice and Tropic astra would have been planned to coincide on purpose, may as well multi task if your in the region anyway, good confirmation of training.

The extra 3 A109s to come in the future are to be stock versions (for pure training) freeing up the mil spec models for operational duties including deployments so 3 Sqn should have 8 NH90s and 5 A109s available to task for future ops.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
A case of walking away from short-medium patrol capability or could the situation perhaps be that a different (and larger) aircraft is now prefered again for the short-medium patrol capability?
The B350 option struck me as something to also fill the short (inshore) patrol capability but perhaps less suited for the medium range capability (i.e. offshore/Pacific Is).

And perhaps there's a tie in again with the air transport review i.e. something along the size of the C-27J/CN-235/295 - wouldn't that be nice if that was the case?

Something else - there were recent 'concerns' about Hawker Beechcraft's financial situation, so can we read the new B200 (glass cockpit) MEPT lease as a positive in terms of say the T-6 being in favour for the single engine pilot advanced pilot training role? I had thought that the single engine APT aircraft was pretty much the "next cab off the rank" in terms of capex?

Then again those treasury "mongrels" (he he, nice phrase NM, I'm gonna nick it) just love dangling those carrots in front of Defence and taking them away again :sniper
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
A 5 year lease - arghhh. They are walking away from short-medium patrol capability. Classic procrastination. A 3 year lease term would have made sense but another half a decade. That really surprises me.

Looks as though all the work that Mapp per policy position stuff with respect to the DWP did prior to his retirement is being passed over at the Cabinet level as BE and his moneyhawks are closing things down. It has been coming up 3 years since the DWP consultations and 2 years since the document release and the process is seemingly stalled. A "Claytons" DWP it is turning out to be with a further 3 year wait until the real one.

Agreed Mr C, looks like we had the oppourtunity to remedy some identified capability deficiancies ie short range MPA/ light airlift maybe concurrently and instead carried on as is albeit with a glass cockpit with exactly the same AC. I seriously doubt we will get extra aircraft to cover these roles therefore I suspect we will see these same points brought up in future 'papers' and probably after even more 'studies' at taxpayer expense.

Our defence force seems to be all about policies, visions, goals and plans but at the end of the day most just turn into flow diagrams instead of reality that took hundreds of thousands of dollars to come up with and are set so far into the future that it inevitably changes, for the better or worse? who knows. What we need is someone to come up with a plan(a good one), stick to it, and ACTUALLY implement, aqquire or produce it in a timely fashion, a problem now will still be there in 10 years if left alone.

Our policies adapt so much however by the time we get there its already old news.
 

ngatimozart

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Agreed Mr C, looks like we had the oppourtunity to remedy some identified capability deficiancies ie short range MPA/ light airlift maybe concurrently and instead carried on as is albeit with a glass cockpit with exactly the same AC. I seriously doubt we will get extra aircraft to cover these roles therefore I suspect we will see these same points brought up in future 'papers' and probably after even more 'studies' at taxpayer expense.

Our defence force seems to be all about policies, visions, goals and plans but at the end of the day most just turn into flow diagrams instead of reality that took hundreds of thousands of dollars to come up with and are set so far into the future that it inevitably changes, for the better or worse? who knows. What we need is someone to come up with a plan(a good one), stick to it, and ACTUALLY implement, aqquire or produce it in a timely fashion, a problem now will still be there in 10 years if left alone.

Our policies adapt so much however by the time we get there its already old news.
Back when I was in the RNZAF 30 odd years ago it was said by some that we give the politicians one term (three years) and if they didn't do the job properly send up to Waiouru and let Army use 'em as target practice. Pour encourager l' autre as the French say. Come the glorious day of the revolution. But it appears that Coleman may not be doing a good job of advocating for Defence, so one wonders just how seriously he is taking his ministerial role and what his true feelings about defence are? Secondly this may also indicate the fate of the advanced trainer in that there isn't anyone with sufficient leverage to keep pushing it through at cabinet level and below levaing the demons in treasury in total control.
 
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