My Question, when is the Royal New Zealand Air force getting back into the Multi Role fighter business to protect their Army and country. I would think JAS 39 Gripen would be perfect for New Zealand and their tight budget and they can get a fighter that dose multi role work.
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
- Start date
Not any time soon. The Gripen may be a good option, but the NZ Government many years ago had a philosophical objection to air combat capability and thus worked hard to ensure the ability of the NZDF to re-constitute a fighter capability was rooted out as greatly as possible.
In reality it would probably take a decade or more to reconstitute such a capability and a scale of funding that no NZ Government is willing to commit to...
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
If one reads further back in this thread or perhaps the general NZDF thread, some of the numbers are discussed. Circa 2007, the funding estimate was ~$200 mil. p.a. would be required to resume Air Combat Force operations, with a span of 5+ years required to establish proficiency. This estimate was on the funding required to conduct training, exercises and operations to skill the pilots, ground crew, maintenance, etc. This did not include funding to purchase the aircraft, spares, munitions, base refurbishment, etc.
Given inflation, that figure per annum would only have gone up. Until there is an NZG willing to commit literally billions to restoring such a capability, and the political will and skill to ensure that such a capability does not get scrapped again once the Gov't of the day is out of power, a RNZAF ACF is basically out of the question.
-Cheers
It is pretty much gauranteed that the RNZAF operating a stand alone air combat capability within our generation is zero. The only way I could see the return of any sembalance of a viable air combat capability return was if there the NZDF owned/leased some aircraft (around half a sqd or short sqd) that would operate to support wider NZDF and ADF defence training needs and then deploy as part of a joint ANZAC Squadron with the RAAF sometime in the future. Only if the ADF decided to continue with the Shornet for decades to come and agrees to wantingto do it. I think me winning Lotto has a greater chance however at this stage and the wider regional security would have to markedly deteriorate.
Precisely - the only way NZ will ever stand-up an ACF again is if new security challenges develop to face us. But even then they'd have to be fairly direct ones & and faced over the medium to longer term.
If it ever does it'd probably be a small unit, with advanced jet training provided by RAAF over the ditch (at RNZAF cost). Most affordable & meaningful (& most likely) would be something like a fleet of 5-6 fast jet reconn a/c, rather than a full on fighter / strike role.
Must admit I've kind of grown sick & tired of reading posts on potential ACF options, but it's an open forum and anyway, let's keep the dream alive!
If it ever does it'd probably be a small unit, with advanced jet training provided by RAAF over the ditch (at RNZAF cost). Most affordable & meaningful (& most likely) would be something like a fleet of 5-6 fast jet reconn a/c, rather than a full on fighter / strike role.
Must admit I've kind of grown sick & tired of reading posts on potential ACF options, but it's an open forum and anyway, let's keep the dream alive!
And now you're on a two week holiday. Think very carefully about how you speak about other countries while you're away - this isn't the place for flaming nor for infantile assertions about their priorities. If you're looking for that kind of forum, then by all means avoid this one.
A4kscooter
Member
NZ may not have the biggest or best equipped armed forces and I'm sure the air force would love a squadron of fighters etc and the navy a fleet of frigates and destroyers but it isn't going to happen.
But New Zealand more than compensates with its contribution to humanitarian missions
and Policing actions around the world etc.
There are plenty of nations who have lots of shiny fighters and nice new ships who do absolutely nothing - New Zealanders and their armed forces have nothing to be ashamed of.
If NZ were to get a Squadron of fighters, what roles do people envisage they would perform and what level of threat?
i.e. do people envisage they would be able to perform CAS only, or do people envisage they are going to be able to go up on a strike against a credible air threat with an IADS.
Because one requires a lot more proficiency and support than the other.
i.e. do people envisage they would be able to perform CAS only, or do people envisage they are going to be able to go up on a strike against a credible air threat with an IADS.
Because one requires a lot more proficiency and support than the other.
t68
Well-Known Member
There are a number of things a NZACF could in fact do; CAS is only one aspect what an ACF could do. But one only has to look at Australia contribution of 14 fast jets with 75 Squadron in the Gulf war II. In its initial role was escort to high value aircraft such as tankers and AWACS aircraft later it did in fact provide CAS to coalition forces, compared to what assets other members of the coalition could muster Australia involvement with 75 Squadron was pretty much insignificant to the overall operation but that does not mean Australia involvement was not appreciated.
Don’t underestimate only a handful of fast jets in Kiwi colours could achieve, much can said of the Kiwi involvement in Vietnam it also was tokenism but one that punched well above its weight.
While prohibitive in cost for NZ a small number of F35A would be of immense value not only to NZ but Australia as well with oz only expected to get between 72 and 100 airframes Australia could look to NZ for support in escorting its own high value aircraft whilst RAAF get on the job of providing top cover to a NZ/Aust amphibious task group consisting of HMAS Canberra/HMNZS Canterbury, if a disagreement with China in the future leads to a new cold war the complexities of modern systems leads long lead time to require past platform advantages that NZ once possessed will take to long to play catch up if/when needed.
You once had a bird in the hand but you let it go, now you won’t not catch another,pity
A short Sqn of leased F/A-18G would be an interesting capability for the RNZAF later in the decade or early in the 2020s. Aircrew could be trained in Aust and serve in RAAF 1 Sqn along side the Australian crews, progressively taking over the capability as the RAAFs F-35s come on line. Once everything is upto speed the RNZAF cadre is retitled and relocated back to NZ. A win win, NZ ends up with a true multi role purple capability and the ANZ part of the alliance gets to retain the Growlers for longer.
t68
Well-Known Member
When people dismiss the idea of a Kiwi ACF of the threat level, the same argument could be said of the RAAF why does it need a fast jet capability? Don’t we have the same threat matrix as NZ? Who is capable of exploiting the sea/air gap to Australia’s North? Why are middle powers such as Aust/NZ standing up military capable amphibious ships if they don’t see a need to use them in combat operations?
Since the end of RAAF large deployments 1939-1972 era when RAAF was committed to WWII, Korea, Malaysia and Vietnam, it was 30 years later before Australia used its airforce in combat operations, if we had taken the Kiwi stance would have no fast jets either, would Australia have taken the gamble of an intervention of ET knowing if Australian troop got into trouble we would have no air support on call if it all went to custard and why do still keep a maritime strike capability, when we stated that no one in the region besides the US could exploit the air/sea gap, its all about having a scalable deterrent capable of delivering different levels of leverage to enforce NZ political goals, its an expensive insurance policy.
Since the end of RAAF large deployments 1939-1972 era when RAAF was committed to WWII, Korea, Malaysia and Vietnam, it was 30 years later before Australia used its airforce in combat operations, if we had taken the Kiwi stance would have no fast jets either, would Australia have taken the gamble of an intervention of ET knowing if Australian troop got into trouble we would have no air support on call if it all went to custard and why do still keep a maritime strike capability, when we stated that no one in the region besides the US could exploit the air/sea gap, its all about having a scalable deterrent capable of delivering different levels of leverage to enforce NZ political goals, its an expensive insurance policy.
Not discounting the RNZAF ACF. However to examine any such proposal on its merits I don’t see how NZ would get value for money from it.
I am familiar with the RAAF contribution to GWII. I’m also familiar with fighter roles. The reason I threw the question out there was because I haven’t seen a good argument framed as to what roles a potential NZ ACF would train to, and what level of threat they would expect to operate to.
Anyhoo, to suggest that NZ could contribute similar is perhaps optimistic. The RAAF had 71 hornets and deployed 14. If NZ had say 20 Jets it is unlikely they could contribute 14, just due to the number that would be in/out of scheduled servicing. 75Sqn had supplemental aircrew drawn from other 81WG Sqns.
Additionally the RAAF has a benefit in that it has 4 operational front line sqns (1,3,75,77) and could have rotated another Sqn into theatre if required. Definitely possible/likely in the event of an Afghanistan style scenario, whereas a single Sqn RNZAF ACF would not have this ability. The RAAF has far greater flexibility in training owing to this fact in that it can have Sqn’s training for different missions at the same time, the RNZAF would not have this ability. In fact to have a single sqn train by itself is a massive limiting factor.
In terms of trying to re-raise a Kiwi ACF - at the moment the RAAF ACG would have very little flex to take on and train RNZAF aircrew to re-establish FJ core skills. The US just due to its sheer size and the fact that they already train other aircrew would have the best capability to do this.
In terms of the Kiwi’s running in an Aussie Sqn or making up 50% of the balance or whatever people seem to feel may happen – I suspect that security would make that impracticle
Finally in terms of support - raising a kiwi Sqn would require more than just retraining a Sqn. For example you would need to establish something similar to the RAAF’s JEWOSU and WSSF to get the most from their jets. More cost, more money, more expertise.
Like you said – aint going to happen…
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This topic has been done to death about every six months it gets a good thrashing and to be honest it personally bores me. We all agree that it would be great if we had an air combat capability and we could all find reasons to justify it and opinionate about possible pathways back .... BUT .... it is politically toxic ... no one in any position of power wants to know about it or even cares less. It could be done (at great expense and effort) but it is not going to be done.
Let's find something relevant to discuss ....
Let's find something relevant to discuss ....
Hooooooooooooray, you da man! Finally someone with bigger nuts that I has had the balls to say it! :daz
Whats happening about the 14 Squadron Aermacchis that are languishing here & probably deteriorating? Has there been any progress on the sale of those or are they going to go the way of the Skyhawks? Seems a shame since they won't have a large number of hours on them. IIRC they engines are no longer supported and wouldn't it be logical and fiscally responsible to rengine them and stand them up as a training squadron or a increased chance of sale to get taxpayers value out of them.
Looks as though they maybe going the way of the skyhawk, sure I remember something about one of them going to the aviation(presumably Wigram) museum. If they are willing to split the fleet then obviously a firm sale is looking unlikely. Again, good work fearless leaders.
Well if that's the case why don't the mongrels stand up 14 squadron again and re-engine the aircraft or operate the ones as is and cannibalise two of them. Far better than letting them rot. At least the NZG would get some value for money which the polies fair love yapping about. The RNZAF Museum has whats left of NZ6465 after it swallowed a foreign object whilst in flight near Kaitaia and the crew had to bang out. The foreign object was probably a bird and it didn't do the engine a power of good. I saw the 'gun camera' video somewhere else and it was quite impressive and very professional response from the crew with the backseater being non-aircrew.
A few years ago the RMAF expressed a keen interest in the ex-RNZAF MBB-339s and even sent a team to have a look a them. This was followed by an announcement by the government that talks were being held. For some reason the deal never happened, which is a shame as the RMAF had a pressing need for LIFTs to train its Su-30 pilots and the MBB-339s were in good condition. Instead the RMAF got 8 new MBB-339CMs, with engines - overhauled by Rolls Royce - taken from its surviving MB-339As.
There is little enthusiasm/faith offered by the political masters that the project management capability within the Ministry would be able to deliver viable aircraft on time and budget - their have been too many stuff ups in the recent past. But what puts it into perspeective is that (and the numbers have indeed been crunched) that the cost to detune or replace the Mk 680 Viper engines and conduct the required digital upgrade of avionic systems of the Macchi's and then paying through the teeth to support it all over the years ahead is more than the cost of new high performance turbo prop trainers that are fully suported and have an operational flight cost per hour substantially less that can do the same job more reliably.
Mapp and Roy when DefMins instructed the CAF to look into this nearly 4 years ago. Its a dead parrot, its gone to meet its maker ....
Ok Mr C it's a Norwegian Blue it's deceased etc.
Well it looks like that they are being disposed of. NZ6464 has turned up at the Ashburton Aviation Museum sans engine and the post I read elsewhere said that from now on any organisation that wants them must arrange for the dismantling, transport etc., of the aircraft. NZDF will apparently give no support. It's a real shame. Wonder if we'll see one flying in the warbird scene like the Blunty.
Well it looks like that they are being disposed of. NZ6464 has turned up at the Ashburton Aviation Museum sans engine and the post I read elsewhere said that from now on any organisation that wants them must arrange for the dismantling, transport etc., of the aircraft. NZDF will apparently give no support. It's a real shame. Wonder if we'll see one flying in the warbird scene like the Blunty.