Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

chis73

Active Member
For your interest Gentlemen:

p11, Appendix 3, 2011 UK NAO Major Projects Report

Project: Lynx Wildcat
Current number of units: 66
Unit cost (£m): 26
Unit production cost (£m): 13

Departmental notes:

The programme is to deliver 66 aircraft (28 Surface Combatant Maritime Rotorcraft, 30 Battlefield Reconnaissance Helicopter and eight Battlefield Reconnaissance Helicopter/Light Assault Helicopter) and Training Capital Equipment that consists of a building and Synthetic Training Devices. Unit cost is total assessment, demonstration and manufacture forecast divided by 66, while the unit production cost is total manufacture cost divided by 66 (manufacture cost excludes the value attributable to the Training Capital Equipment).

Of course, training & spares support would be additional.

Chis73

Interesting article Ngati- good find!

Additional comment: But I think it misses 2 important issues:
1. Why were NZDF or Safe Air not doing any depot level maintenance on the Seasprites? That seems to have exacerbated the corrosion issues. I'm sure NZDF or Safe Air would have done it if they had been allowed to. Kaman not releasing information perhaps?

2. Where are the spares going to come from 10 years from now?

If NZDF want to go ahead with this proposal, they better make sure they acquire complete production rights & all the intellectual property.
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
So what would happen to the existing fleet if the Aussie Sprites were purchased, would we use them for parts or would they be kept and we would then operate a much larger fleet? According to the article we also have 6 F models which are used for parts and training. IMO the govt would be daft not to buy them.
That is a very good question!

At a guess some possibilities:

1. Broken down for attrition parts.
2. INST airframes for GTW replacing the F's.
3. Sold off cheap after a basic airworthiness upgrade / LEP to a developing country
4. Trade back deal with Kaman whom might have another buyer lined up - such as a developing country following a basic LEP.
5. Static display ...... kiddies playgrounds ..... :D
6. Stored as Reserves.

By the way number 4 is the best / likely because there is still the thorny issue of the capital value - depreciation quantum. (Still worth a few million a year btw as a cost charge). Thus it better to get rid of them off the NZDF balance sheet (even give them away) rather than keep them and be obliged to pay annual depreciation charges on them to the Govts coffers. A trade back is an elegant way around this.

In my view the June negotiations will probably have this fairly high on the priority.
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
But I think it misses 2 important issues:

1. Why were NZDF or Safe Air not doing any depot level maintenance on the Seasprites? That seems to have exacerbated the corrosion issues. I'm sure NZDF or Safe Air would have done it if they had been allowed to. Kaman not releasing information perhaps?

2. Where are the spares going to come from 10 years from now?

If NZDF want to go ahead with this proposal, they better make sure they acquire complete production rights & all the intellectual property.
To answer Q1 - basically the problem is there were not enough airframes to begin with. We had traditionally nine WASPs to support 4 Leanders. There was little time margin to get any regularity of deeper servicing - made worst by the fact that the belated 05 airframe eventually bought was negated by either 02 or 03 iirc (sic) snotting a deck landing and being unservicable for an extended period in 2003/04 - thus effectively putting us back to just four airframes trying to operate off 3 decks. There was a suggestion from within Defence that an 06 should have been bought alongside 05 at the time - fat chance from the 9th Floor at that time

To answer Q2 - Don't be suprised to see 6 airframes pressed into 6 Sqd service, 2 stored and left intact and able to be introduced onto the flightline as replacement reserves, with the rest as designated as Lecters immediately available to be burgled and the fallback of 2 intact airframes in reserve as a buffer. Kaman will still be able to support them from OTS subcontractor parts and of course AMARC.

Its not that big an issue really. Eleven airframes to keep six flying for 15 years is pre-cautionary under the circumstanes.

PS - That is of course predicated on Defence getting the job lot of 11 airframes and telling Bill English and his treasury goons that they know sfa about running a defence force if they suggest anything less.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
So what would happen to the existing fleet if the Aussie Sprites were purchased, would we use them for parts or would they be kept and we would then operate a much larger fleet? According to the article we also have 6 F models which are used for parts and training. IMO the govt would be daft not to buy them.
IMHO we should operate 9 of the 11 (maybe 9 in that Equador have lodged a request for 2) and use 2 for spares considering the history of service from Kaman. With regrad to the 5 we already operate we should operate 3 and cannibalise the other 2 to keep the 3 operational. That way we have either 12 or 10 operational aircraft which will always ensure that we can have a minimum of three able to fly at a moments notice with another 3 - 5 as back up and the remainder in deep maintenace. I submit that would be the logical and sensible thing to do.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
IMHO we should operate 9 of the 11 (maybe 9 in that Equador have lodged a request for 2) and use 2 for spares considering the history of service from Kaman. With regrad to the 5 we already operate we should operate 3 and cannibalise the other 2 to keep the 3 operational. That way we have either 12 or 10 operational aircraft which will always ensure that we can have a minimum of three able to fly at a moments notice with another 3 - 5 as back up and the remainder in deep maintenace. I submit that would be the logical and sensible thing to do.
Mmm - Hard to argue with the numbers (Though I did think about it:D). From everything I've heard two issues have affected servicablity: Logistics and Corrision. The issue with logistics is IMHO Kaman has sucked in ensuring an adquete supply chain. That might be because of the mostly analogue systems but all the same, if they can't deliver on logistics we should scrap em.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
An interesting article on the ex RAN Seasprite possible purchase by the NZG. It gives an explanation of their history, discusses the NZDF Seasprite problems and suggests that if NZG purchase these 11 then they will see NZDF through until 2030. They have low hours on them with the whole fleet only flying 1600 hours in RAN service. Australian Super Seasprites to fly again? | Australian Defence News & Articles | Asia Pacific Defence Reporter
Hell I hope those escape clauses the DefMin alludes to are robust - I just don't know about buying these.:unknown

On numbers alone, yep great - buy 11 & aim to have 6 operational most of the time. My concern is assuming the RNZN stick with a Maverick capable platform (RNZN won't be getting the Penguin - end of story) - they'll need to (re)modify the a/c to accept Maverick. That'll be yet another 'systems integration' merry-go-round & that's precisely the area that soaks up money & delays new equipment these days!

Whilst the existing Sprites have Maverick - the Aussie a/c are not the same in a number of ways to our current fleet, so it's not a case of simply copying what was done on ours, over to theirs! Far from it!

I'm also still a little bugged by this flight control system that gave a number or problems! Remember not so long ago many on this forum, me included, smuggly scoffed at the RAN & noted they should've gone the way we did! Doesn't it worry anyone that we're about to potentially dump our 'good' a/c for their supposed lemons!?! :shudder

And I'm always dead sceptical about any PR 'huff & puff' that the DefMin or senior bods in Wgtn (defence included) dish-out!

All I can say to Coleman is be very wary about buying these - and get good lawyers!

p.s. who's gonna fly the extra choppers if we can't retain the crews!?!
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Korea – MH-60R Seahawk Multi-Mission Helicopters

Here is an interesting article fresh today about Korea purchasing8 MH-60R Seahawk Multi-Mission Helicopters

The purchase price is $1 Billion US. All things not being equal different configurations etc, to me however the price indicates something of a base line for us to consider. I find it more likely for the NZ Gov to go for the Seasprites rather than a new buy of even half that figure in 2015.
 
I believe one of the reason the Seasprite was chosen instead of the Lynx was that Westland didn't support the Wasp particularly well and the NZ government were concerned about these issues if operating the Lynx.
The Wildcat is only operated by the British AAC and RN and unless any other orders are forthcoming the production line will shutdown.
If NZ did choose the Wildcat and the production does finish and for what ever reason they require extra airframes none will be available and the UK is unlikely to withdraw aircraft from service to supply NZ.
At least if they stuck with Seasprite there are plenty of available airframes in storage which could be acquired although I think the Seahawk (new build or 2nd hand) is a better option.
The Seahawk's commonality with New Zealand's allies and its larger size makes the Seahawk a much more useful helicopter.
 

Zhaow

New Member
The problem with the Royal New Zealand Navy is that they don't have the capability to play well with NATO Allies, the US or Australia. The Royal New Zealand Navy as I see it is more Akin to a Coastal navy like Ecuador or even Mexico. With their size, they are almost as big as the US Coast Guard. If the Royal New Zealand Navy wanted to play with US & Australia, they would need to modernize their Navy and put it on Par with NATO Frigate Navies.

The way I see it, they should have gone with 4 Multi Role Frigates such as the FREMM Frigate, F-125 or the Álvaro de Bazán class frigate or the Fridtjof Nansen class frigate. The other attractive option for the Royal New Zealand Navy is that they could have looked at a modified patrol frigate out of the Legend-class National Security Cutter that the US Coast Guard is operating right now. Their Navy right now, almost operates like the US Coast Guard.

4 Multi Purpose replenishment ships such as the Berlin class replenishment ship or the Lewis and Clark class dry cargo ship.They should Ditch the HMNZS CANTERBURY and should have gone with 2 to 4 LPD's such as the Endurance class LPD, San Antonio class amphibious transport dock, Galicia class landing platform dock or even the Rotterdam class amphibious transport dock.

As for their Patrol Force, I believe they should have gone Sentinel class cutter that is better armed than what they have. The other would have been Spain's Buque de Acción Marítima.Their Patrol Boats they have, which is nothing more than a toothless patrol boat. They could have made it very well Armed.

As for the helicopters, they should have ditched the Seasprite and should have gone with the more capable MH-60R or SH-60 or their other option would have been to go with the NH90 NFH.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The problem with the Royal New Zealand Navy is that they don't have the capability to play well with NATO Allies, the US or Australia. The Royal New Zealand Navy as I see it is more Akin to a Coastal navy like Ecuador or even Mexico. With their size, they are almost as big as the US Coast Guard. If the Royal New Zealand Navy wanted to play with US & Australia, they would need to modernize their Navy and put it on Par with NATO Frigate Navies.

The way I see it, they should have gone with 4 Multi Role Frigates such as the FREMM Frigate, F-125 or the Álvaro de Bazán class frigate or the Fridtjof Nansen class frigate. The other attractive option for the Royal New Zealand Navy is that they could have looked at a modified patrol frigate out of the Legend-class National Security Cutter that the US Coast Guard is operating right now. Their Navy right now, almost operates like the US Coast Guard.

4 Multi Purpose replenishment ships such as the Berlin class replenishment ship or the Lewis and Clark class dry cargo ship.They should Ditch the HMNZS CANTERBURY and should have gone with 2 to 4 LPD's such as the Endurance class LPD, San Antonio class amphibious transport dock, Galicia class landing platform dock or even the Rotterdam class amphibious transport dock.

As for their Patrol Force, I believe they should have gone Sentinel class cutter that is better armed than what they have. The other would have been Spain's Buque de Acción Marítima.Their Patrol Boats they have, which is nothing more than a toothless patrol boat. They could have made it very well Armed.

As for the helicopters, they should have ditched the Seasprite and should have gone with the more capable MH-60R or SH-60 or their other option would have been to go with the NH90 NFH.
You need to read back through the thread to gain an understanding of the issues that affect the RNZN. The largest problem the NZDF has is lack of funding and that is a political issue. The answer to this question is similar to the answer to your question on the RNZAF thread. The other thing that you should note about ships in the South Pacific and Sub Antarctic waters is that they have to be able to handle those conditions. You have suggested Spanish Patrol Boats and would they be able to handle the conditions here? The RNZN had Loch Class Patrol Boats in the 1970's / 1980's and they weren't the best boats for the conditions. They were literally bone breakers. The MH60 Romeo etc., are to expensive for the NZG at the moment. As far as capability to "play" as you put it with the RAN or NATO navies the RNZN is as good as any of those navies and has worked with the NATO navies off Somalia, with the RAN since the RNZN was formed and prior to that when the RNZN was a Division of the RN. The old adage of it's not how big it is but how you use it applies here. Yes the RNZN does have issues with funding etc., but it is still a world class navy. NZ is not a country that can throw tens or hundreds of billions at it's armed forces like other nations, so we have to work with what we've got.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The problem with the Royal New Zealand Navy is that they don't have the capability to play well with NATO Allies, the US or Australia. The Royal New Zealand Navy as I see it is more Akin to a Coastal navy like Ecuador or even Mexico. With their size, they are almost as big as the US Coast Guard. If the Royal New Zealand Navy wanted to play with US & Australia, they would need to modernize their Navy and put it on Par with NATO Frigate Navies.

The way I see it, they should have gone with 4 Multi Role Frigates such as the FREMM Frigate, F-125 or the Álvaro de Bazán class frigate or the Fridtjof Nansen class frigate. The other attractive option for the Royal New Zealand Navy is that they could have looked at a modified patrol frigate out of the Legend-class National Security Cutter that the US Coast Guard is operating right now. Their Navy right now, almost operates like the US Coast Guard.

4 Multi Purpose replenishment ships such as the Berlin class replenishment ship or the Lewis and Clark class dry cargo ship.They should Ditch the HMNZS CANTERBURY and should have gone with 2 to 4 LPD's such as the Endurance class LPD, San Antonio class amphibious transport dock, Galicia class landing platform dock or even the Rotterdam class amphibious transport dock.

As for their Patrol Force, I believe they should have gone Sentinel class cutter that is better armed than what they have. The other would have been Spain's Buque de Acción Marítima.Their Patrol Boats they have, which is nothing more than a toothless patrol boat. They could have made it very well Armed.

As for the helicopters, they should have ditched the Seasprite and should have gone with the more capable MH-60R or SH-60 or their other option would have been to go with the NH90 NFH.
Several points here seem to have been overlooked.

First, the RNZN has a pair of FFH's in service which are approaching the time for their mid-life update. While not the best kitted out frigates in service, they are more heavily armed than the new National Security Cutters entering service in the USCG. Depending on the options chosen their MLU, the capabilities of the RNZN Anzac-class FFH's could expand significantly. While most observers do agree that the RNZN would have been better served had a third and perhaps fourth FFH been purchased, it would make little sense for the RNZN to have chosen one of the suggested classes, unless the RNZN had decided to retire and perhaps sell their Anzac-class vessels early, instead of conducting a MLU. The Royal Norweigan Navy's Aegis-equipped Fridtjof Nansen-class FFG is perhaps a good example of this dilemma. The RNZN's oldest Anzac-class FFH, HMNZS Te Kaha was commissioned July 1997, and the HNoMS Fridtjof Nansen was commissioned April 5th, 2006.

It would better instead of consider what the RNZN should do in terms of a replacement programme for the FFH's, both in terms of numbers, capabilities, cost and timeframe.

As for the RNZN getting four replenishment vessels, I have to ask, "why?"

Take a look at the composition of the RNZN fleet here. The RNZN fleet currently only has ~8 vessels which might be deployed away from NZ, and that includes the current replenishment vessel, a survey vessel, a diver/MCM vessel, the MRV/sealift vessel HMNZS Canterbury, both OPV's and the two FFH's. As a practical matter, all of those vessels are not going to be deployed away from NZ at the same time, and more likely some vessels would not be deployed away from NZ given their roles. Having a second replenishment vessel might be nice for NZ to have, to give a bit more freedom and flexibility when the primary vessel is undergoing maintenance, but is not essential. Particularly given the typically limited scope RNZN's deployments away from NZ and/or Oz.

Now in terms of getting something better than Canterbury... Yes, something better would have been nice. However, prior to Canterbury the RNZN did not have any sort of amphibious capability, and the Project Protector programme which included Canterbury was like most NZDF aquisition programmes run on a 'shoe-string' budget. IIRC the whole Project Protector fleet, the Canterbury MRV, the two OPV's and the four IPV's costing a total of ~NZ$500 mil. Again from memory, there was a cost limitation for the Canterbury which worked out to ~NS$130 mil. or ~USD$100 mil. Such a limitation would have put a ST Marine-built Endurance-class LPD out of reach, since they cost ~US$135 mil. nevermind a US-built San Antonio-class LPD since the costs at present are looking to average out somewhere above US$1.2 bil. per vessel, and could end up as high as US$1.7 bil. per vessel. A similar situation would exist if the Galicia-class or Rotterdam-class amphibs had been chosen, since those vessels have higher costs than an Endurance-class LPD.

As for the IPV's needing heavier armament... Against what exactly? The four new IPV's are just that, Inshore Patrol Vessels, designed to operate in and around the islands of New Zealand. I doubt they would ever engage in significant patrolling of the edges of the EEZ, since they lack the size and displacement to deal with the gentle waters of the southern Pacific and Southern Oceans. Apart from some police/fishery/enviromental enforcement activities, I suspect much of what the IPV's are actually going to be doing is SAR work. For these sorts of roles, so close to NZ proper, small arms are really all that is required.

One thing which those who have not spent much time looking at the NZDF, is to really look at the resource limitations which the NZDF has had to operate under for so long and the degree to which politics and the Treasury have dictated what can be purchased or how much can be spent.

-Cheers
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The old adage of it's not how big it is but how you use it applies here. Yes the RNZN does have issues with funding etc., but it is still a world class navy. NZ is not a country that can throw tens or hundreds of billions at it's armed forces like other nations, so we have to work with what we've got.
And it is quite impressive what the NZDF manages, given how hobbled it has been in terms of funding and political support.

-Cheers
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
....

Take a look at the composition of the RNZN fleet here. The RNZN fleet currently only has ~8 vessels which might be deployed away from NZ, and that includes the current replenishment vessel, a survey vessel, a diver/MCM vessel, the MRV/sealift vessel HMNZS Canterbury, both OPV's and the two FFH's. ....
-Cheers
Not even that now - Resolution has been decommissioned :(
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
And it is quite impressive what the NZDF manages, given how hobbled it has been in terms of funding and political support.

-Cheers
One of the ironies is that defence and national security as I am sure you know as well Todj, is not just about territorial sovereignty, but also economic sovereignty. Our GDP debt ratio per capita is one of the better ones within the OECD - however, when one looks at how may nations with bigger flasher armed forces are nearing collapse with respect to their economies and GDP debt into triple figures - generally we are not as stupid as we might seem.

National security is not just about the military hardware. It is about the robustness in ones economy and other subsets including intell and diplomatic capability respective to size that also matter. This is where NZ does punch above its weight beyond a military hardware focus.
 

Vanguard

New Member
I thought Resolution was going to be decommissioned soon, but had not yet done so...

If that is the case, then perhaps Navy should see about keeping their site up to date.
I'm fairly sure this is the case, she may be up for sale and listed as an ex-Navy ship but I am fairly sure they have not fully scratched her yet.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
I thought Resolution was going to be decommissioned soon, but had not yet done so...

If that is the case, then perhaps Navy should see about keeping their site up to date.
I guess in this instance it's only a matter of a couple of weeks but yes I agree NZDF could do better at keeping their websites up to date. A few years back they were absolutely useless but then more recently it has picked-up. I hope they aren't slipping back to old habits - possibly there's no-one left to do the job! Mind you - it's a perfect job for 'recently civilanised' staff member!

The NZDF seemed to have realised in recent years that online media is the way to capture todays recruits - especially with the online video medium being so perfect for pushing that 'adventure' element!

But it's also important the websites basic information is up to date - factually. The news 'magazines' sometimes take a while to appear online - they should be online the day the hard copies are posted out!
 

Zhaow

New Member
I heard scuttlebutt along time ago when then Commandant Thad Allen of the US Coast Guard was in New Zealand visiting the country. Someone in the Royal New Zealand Navy I don't know where, talked to him about the US Coast Guards National Security Cutter and the Fast response cutter and how it would be nice for New Zealand to have. From what I heard, they were impressed with the National Security Cutter and someone in New Zealand thought it was a perfect fit for them.

What do you all think, Would New Zealand would ever buy into the US Coast Guards National Security Cutter and the Fast response cutter.
 
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