Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
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Reject Aussie choppers on Navy shopping list - National - NZ Herald News
More Sprites as expected. Think of this as an interim purchase under we eventually get something better like Romeo's. At least it is a useful tool though unsexy that will get the get the job done.
NavyBrat80
New Member
One of the problems with the Seasprite is that it RNZN is only service who still uses them so getting parts and support is difficult in the extreme. I would have thought that buying 6 or 7 of the NFH version of the NH-90 would be a much better option. They are in service or about to enter service with quite a few other countries, so we wouldn't have an orphan fleet.
I agree with you views regarding the Orphan fleet, but at best we'd be looking at Lynx or SH-60 type helicopters. NH90 wouldn't fit in the ANZAC or OPV hangars that I've seen. I won't even start on the cost (Cough Sputter).
I suspect that purchase will provide a source of spares for the existing aircraft which will be upgraded to a glass flight deck. I can't see the navy needing more than 1 to 3 addtional flight worthy airframes in order to equip all the frigates (2), OPV (2) and Canterbury (1) with one aircraft each on a sustained basis, given we currently own 5 (even if they don't all go).
I read 130 to 230 million depending upon how many NZ buys. If 230 buys 11, I suspect NZ could buy 5 for 130 million. That is a very good buy price wise for Seasprites. I doubt whether one could buy two Seahawks or NH90s for 130 million. Furthermore, the Seasprites are useful naval helicopters, considerably better than the old Wasps.
the road runner
Active Member
I was under the impression(as i read it a while ago) that Australia Super Sea Sprites were not to cost effective to maintain per flight hour.The reason being an orphaned fleet.I would hope that NZ would not fall for buying cheap Sea Sprites at he cost of paying big per flight hour to maintain/operate.
I cannot for the life of me remember were i read it,it was when Australia cancelled the sea sprite program.Hope someone can shed some light on this?
I cannot for the life of me remember were i read it,it was when Australia cancelled the sea sprite program.Hope someone can shed some light on this?
The kiwis don't want the seasprites to be used under the same aust conops though - remember that the Ox seasprites were supposed to be automated to the point of one less crew member etc...
they were actually close to being resolved and were not as bad as the press made them out to be. in fact I'd argue that it was political expediency that killed them in the end (have one of the engineers in one of my earlier projects)
damn shame the whole sorry saga was not aired in public rather than the sexy soundbites designed to arc everyone up
Don't Egypt and Poland also operate the Seasprite?
Will these be modified to the same standard as our existing Sprites, will the current fleet be retired or will the Aussie Sprites become additions to the fleet with some being parted out?
Egypt and Poland operate them also. The possible/probable Sprites (as no contract has been signed and are probably only at the LOI stage of negotiations) are already modified I understand to what Kaman are calling the (I) for international standard. Pretty much ready to go (if/when they have been flight certified and that documentation is acceptable to the NZ Govt.
Here is a sales blurb on them.
http://oaktree-ilst.com/Seasprite_Helicopters_for_sale-v1.pdf
$USD180m for 11 new build Sprites plus support package is cream puff. In my view they will keep us ticking over until the Anzac replacements arrive when we can operate an appropriate maritime rotary solution for those new vessels and a LHD to replace the CY.
IPV fleet scuppered
To add insult to injury, there goes half the IPV fleet. Very sad to see, especially such new ships mothballed like this. Wish NZG & Navy would be honest and admit that its all about the money. They should try to get the Reserves in the Auckland area to crew one (if only on weekends).
Navy to drop half its patrol vessels | POLITICS News
I can't see anything interim about a possible SH-2G(I) purchase. The 2020-2035 project list is aleady well oversubscribed (an estimated $9b required according to figures in the NZ Defence Industry Association powerpoint presentations). I also can't see the SH-2G(I) holding up till 2035 either. Whats the likely savings of 11 Seasprites vis-a-vis 5 Wildcats? 2011 UK NAO report had Wildcats costing 13m pounds apiece.
Chis73
To add insult to injury, there goes half the IPV fleet. Very sad to see, especially such new ships mothballed like this. Wish NZG & Navy would be honest and admit that its all about the money. They should try to get the Reserves in the Auckland area to crew one (if only on weekends).
Navy to drop half its patrol vessels | POLITICS News
I can't see anything interim about a possible SH-2G(I) purchase. The 2020-2035 project list is aleady well oversubscribed (an estimated $9b required according to figures in the NZ Defence Industry Association powerpoint presentations). I also can't see the SH-2G(I) holding up till 2035 either. Whats the likely savings of 11 Seasprites vis-a-vis 5 Wildcats? 2011 UK NAO report had Wildcats costing 13m pounds apiece.
Chis73
The 2 IPV's alongside are due to manning requirements in specialist branch areas that no Rockies I understand are ticketed for. Its not like one can grab a few guys from Ngapona on a friday night and say lets go for a whizz up to the Bay of Islands for a couple of days. It is not about money in this case - the IPV output budget has not been cut. The NZDF is actively recruiting amongst RN circles for the specialists they require and interest is I have been told positive. This situation is temporary.
The figure for the production airframe cost of Wildcat is closer to GBP 26-27m iirc - then you have to factor in a NZ specific support package including test, training, spares, weapon systems which really escalates the final contracted price. There is not the budget to buy 5 Wildcats or (more likely the Romeo as the RAN will operate it) without an extra capital injection. From half billion Kiwi for five Wildcats/Romeo's is much more likely. If we did buy them that is a moajor capability cancelled in another part of the NZDF during this decade.
The cost projections 15-25 years out are by their very nature intangible thus there is a bit more depth of detail beyond the NZDIA ppt's that are still to be resolved in terms of capability and costings. We also have to deal with the present circumstances, which at worst may see an ASW capability evapourate.
I clearly see this as an interim purchase that will keep us in the game for the next 15 years - taking a long lense look.
The figure for the production airframe cost of Wildcat is closer to GBP 26-27m iirc - then you have to factor in a NZ specific support package including test, training, spares, weapon systems which really escalates the final contracted price. There is not the budget to buy 5 Wildcats or (more likely the Romeo as the RAN will operate it) without an extra capital injection. From half billion Kiwi for five Wildcats/Romeo's is much more likely. If we did buy them that is a moajor capability cancelled in another part of the NZDF during this decade.
The cost projections 15-25 years out are by their very nature intangible thus there is a bit more depth of detail beyond the NZDIA ppt's that are still to be resolved in terms of capability and costings. We also have to deal with the present circumstances, which at worst may see an ASW capability evapourate.
I clearly see this as an interim purchase that will keep us in the game for the next 15 years - taking a long lense look.
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NavyBrat80
New Member
Right you are, stats from wikipedia show that NH-90 is nearly a metre longer than Sprite. Though that measurement appears to be for TTH rather than NFH. I had assumed that as NFH has been in competiton for orders against MH-60R and replaced Lynx it would have been of similar dimension.
Yes cost would also be quite high, though if things don't work out re the Eurozone could drop quickly
Tee_Centre_10
Member
The Australian MRH-90 does fit into the hanger of the Anzac-class, but it is apparently a "tight fit". If the OPV has a hanger the same size, then it should fit too.
The trial occurred on a calm Sydney Harbour, so how it might go on a heaving deck...
Where did you get your numbers from?
I've not seen a UK production airframe cost. The original development & manufacturing contract was just under £1 billion for 70 - & that's official. Total cost of putting it into service, including all the extras (spares, training, infrastructure, etc.), was given in Parliament 3 years later as £1.7 bn for the 62 that was reduced to.
Are you sure you're not mixing up the in-service system cost with the aircraft cost?
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
And if required, perhaps it may be possible to extend the hanger? Former Leander class Frigate Canterbury had her hanger enlarged in the '90's to accommodate the Seasprite (from the Wasp).
Rotary & Wing Magazine April 2012 and as I said ... "iirc" - if I recollect correctly.
It nevertheless with those figures you provided it reinforces the point I was making in the previous post - that the RNZN flying the AW 159 or Romeo is a very long bow and that an NZ specific export deal will mostly be north of the UK one. I don't think we are going to get any AW 159's for GBP13m as a previous poster thought possible.
An interesting article on the ex RAN Seasprite possible purchase by the NZG. It gives an explanation of their history, discusses the NZDF Seasprite problems and suggests that if NZG purchase these 11 then they will see NZDF through until 2030. They have low hours on them with the whole fleet only flying 1600 hours in RAN service. Australian Super Seasprites to fly again? | Australian Defence News & Articles | Asia Pacific Defence Reporter
Thanks for that Ngati. It is good to put things into perspective and this article does that. I agree that they need to take all 11 under the circumstances (if the certification and checkout is kosher) as a job lot.
The article touches on something which has always not being appropriately managed in the past with respect to purchasing NZ military equipment - that their is a false economy with repect to acquiring sub-optimal numbers leading to thrashing. This is mainly at the Cabinet level and not the NZDF senior sirs mind you.
So what would happen to the existing fleet if the Aussie Sprites were purchased, would we use them for parts or would they be kept and we would then operate a much larger fleet? According to the article we also have 6 F models which are used for parts and training. IMO the govt would be daft not to buy them.