Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

[Feanor]

Apparently around 20 Tornado-G systems have been delivered to a unit (most likely a Motor-Rifles Bde) in South MD, and will take part in the May 9th parade in Rostov-on-the-Don. I suspect around 20 means 18, which is an arty btln. I think this will be our first chance to get positively identified pics of the new MLRS in public domain. Up until now there has been a lot of speculation, and most have the system pegged as a BM-21 set of launch tubes on a Kamaz chassis, with a new digital FCS, sat-nav, and new munitions with range of ~40 km. However the specifics remain to be seen.

Lenta.ru:

 

[Feanor]

Does anyone have info regarding the new C2 system deployed in 2007? (YeSU-TZ)
from Sozvezdie? (The Digital Brigade concept)

Implementation, effectiveness, advantages, drawbacks etc

You were asking about the digital brigade concept, I found this:

military_press -

The 7th VDV Para-Assault Division has completed a series of medium-sized field exercises involving the Andromeda-D C4I system. April 5-6th there will be a major (possibly divisional) fex where they will practice using the Andromeda system to coordinate the actions of para-assault and arty regiments.

Earlier there were reports of them using the 2S9 on btln and regimental levels, with automatic FCS, and an unspecified new command and control system (probably the andromeda) for fire support exercises. So it looks like the VDV will be first in implementing the concept. That would make sense as the VDV has far fewer assets to coordinate, and is much smaller itself. In many ways the VDV is also the first to fight part of the Russian military, so they need new C4I the most.

On an unrelated note here are some photos from East MD, most likely the 39th Motor-Rifles. These are live-fire exercises for the BM-21 Grad and the 2S5 Giatsint. These are probably the last 2S5 in service with the Russian military.

http://pressa-tof.livejournal.com/7304.html?view=14472#t14472

 

[Klaus]

So are there only the MSTOs left, besides the Anonas of the VDV? Or did they retain the Akaciya howitzers?
As far as I remember only some hundred of the newer self-propelled howitzers have been delivered, so the artillery forces seem to have been significantly reduced.

 

[Feanor]

So are there only the MSTOs left, besides the Anonas of the VDV? Or did they retain the Akaciya howitzers?
As far as I remember only some hundred of the newer self-propelled howitzers have been delivered, so the artillery forces seem to have been significantly reduced.

MSTOs? I'm sorry, you lost me there. Are you referring to the Msta?

Currently the most wide-spread 152mms are 2S19 Msta-S, and 2S3 Akatsiya. A large number of each have been upgraded with a modern FCS. Also it appears that the Msta-S is in low-rate production, and is slowly (very slowly) replacing the 2S3. Many Motor-Rifles units, and all Marine units have 122mm 2S1 Gvozdika howitzers instead of the heavier 152mm ones. Also at least one unit, I suspect more, have received new 2S34 Hosta 120mm SP Mortars. They use the same chassis as the Gvozdika, but feature the gun and FCS of the Vena. Also some units, typically Marine, but also some Motor-Rifles, have the 2S23 Nona-SVK, which is a Nona turret on a BTR-80 chassis. The Hosta and Nona-SVK are both still in production, and deliveries occurred last year, and possibly already this year.

Some photos of the Hostas and 2S23 Nona-SVK, at Victory Day parade practice in Yekaterinburg.

bmpd -

There is also at least one arty btln of 2S5 Giatsint-S in the 39th Motor-Rifles Bde. There is also a single Independent Heavy Arty Btln of 2S4 Tyulpan 240mm SP Mortars, and a single btln of 2S7 Pion 203mm howitzers.

To be honest I strongly suspect that the units with the 122mm will be the future "light" brigades, using MRAPs as their basic transports, while medium and heavy bde's will use 152mms.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Russian Military Police to Be Set Up

Will setting up a military police help combat hazing and bullying? If, as the prosecutor mentioned, crimes are investigated by unit commanders, no wonder none get solved - these very unit commanders are fully aware of hazing, crime and corruption within the ranks.

Hazing isn't the only problem - theft and bribes amongst the officer corps are widespread. I wonder how effective this service will be, seeing as there are problems with corruption in the government and other enforcement agencies.

 

[Feanor]

Russian Military Police to Be Set Up

Will setting up a military police help combat hazing and bullying? If, as the prosecutor mentioned, crimes are investigated by unit commanders, no wonder none get solved - these very unit commanders are fully aware of hazing, crime and corruption within the ranks.

Hazing isn't the only problem - theft and bribes amongst the officer corps are widespread. I wonder how effective this service will be, seeing as there are problems with corruption in the government and other enforcement agencies.

The military procuracy are the ones investigating these crimes at this point.

 

[Klaus]

@Feanor: Yes, I was referring to the Msta, but didn't know how the word is written.
So if the 2S3s will remain in service for some more years, are there any upgrades planned to be carried out on them?

 

[Feanor]

@Feanor: Yes, I was referring to the Msta, but didn't know how the word is written.
So if the 2S3s will remain in service for some more years, are there any upgrades planned to be carried out on them?

Yes. A number of them are being upgraded right now with a new digital FCS, and possibly other upgrades. The details, however, are unclear.

EDIT: Upgraded BREM-1M have been delivered to South MD. This is very timely, as the land forces have a major deficit of armored recovery vehicles. In the Far East a large number of BTS-4 are still in service on a T-54/55 chassis, so the continuing production and delivery of BREM-1 units is a must.

http://www.i-mash.ru/news/nov_otrasl/21485-partija-modernizirovannykh-mashin-brjem-1m.html

 

[Haavarla]

A detachment from the Russian Airborne Assault Forces will go to the United States in May for a joint anti-terror exercise, Defense Ministry spokesman Col. Alexander Kucherenko said on Thursday.

Russia, U.S. to Hold Joint Anti-Terror Drills | World | RIA Novosti


Well well, when will VVS first Red Flag take place?

 

[Feanor]

150 Lynx MRAPs will be put together this year. What I really want to know is where they will go. I hope they end up in the 56th Para-Assault Bde, because their current UAZ Gusar's are crap, though they're likely to go to the iirc 21st MRB where they're testing the new light brigade concept.

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I also hope they end up with the turrets that Kamaz showcased on the Iveco last year, instead of just an unprotected hatch like the Tigr and Gusar UAZ.

 

[alexkvaskov]

What is the composition of a motor rifles brigade in the Russian Army today? And what will the ground forces look like in the next 10-12 years?

 

[Feanor]

What is the composition of a motor rifles brigade in the Russian Army today? And what will the ground forces look like in the next 10-12 years?

A Motor-Rifles Brigade has 3 M-R btlns, 1 tank btln, 2 SP Arty Btlns, 1 MLRS btln, 1 Recon btln, 1 SAM Btln, 1 AAA/SAM combined btln, and a number of smaller support units (RKhBZ companies, Engineers, a field hospital, etc.)

In the next 10-12 years we will see the current motor-rifles, mountain, recon, and tank brigades re-organized into 3 types - Heavy, Medium, and Light brigades. Tank brigades may remain or may be eliminated entirely. The M-R units will be switched to a new universal medium chassis, the Heavy will have a new universal heavy chassis (Armata), and Light Bdes will use Tayfun, and Iveco Lynx MRAPs for vehicles. Tactical UAVs (namely Grusha and Eleron types) will become common among recon btlns in MR and VDV units, and we will see considerable improvements to the comm-gear that the armed forces use. We will also see an increase in modern kevlars, and flak jackets, which currently are fairly uncommon. We will see a gradual increase in numbers of contract soldiers, primarily occupying NCO and junior technical specialist niches. Finally we will see an increase in attempts to coordinate the MR units with Arty, Air, and Naval assets. How successful this will be will depend heavily on the quality of the comm gear they can get, and the quantity of contract soldiers that they will enlist.

EDIT: Here's a nice pic of a Lynx from one of the SpetzNaz units in South MD.

http://twower.livejournal.com/781979.html

Apparently we will see Lynxes in the Victory Day Parade and parade practice, in Rostov-on-the-Don. As we can see, this one features the turret that Kamaz proposed adding to the Lynx, and what appears to be a PKP medium machinegun. In the background behind it we see a BTR-82A, with it's 2A72 autocannon.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Reserves

How exactly are the reserves being organized in the ongoing reform?

Seeing as current procurement programs are aimed at renewing front line units, it seems to me there's going to be a lot of surplus older equipment for the reserves.

 

[Feanor]

They're not being organized. It's still the sam BKhVT that they had before the reforms. They're experimenting with professional reservists right now, with 1 day a month, 2 weeks a year, training time, and a pay check of iirc 9000 roubles a month, but I have no concrete info about how that is working out.

EDIT: A new Radio-Electronic Warfare complex has been built on the Tigr-M chassis, with 10 of them planned for acquisition this year. First off this is the second new EW unit for the Land Forces, since the beginning of this year, the first was the Infauna, which went to VDV initially but is allegedly planned for Land Forces as well. Second off this is a clear indicator that the Tigr and Tigr-M will remain in use as a platform for both troops, and specialized equipment, along side the Iveco Lynx. In other words the two are not really competitors. Earlier they demonstrated a UAV carrier for the Grusha UAV on the Tigr., and last year the Tigr-M was purchased in the infantry carrier variant, for the 136th MRBde. This is despite the fact that 150 Lynx are to be delivered this year (and deliveries have already commenced).

http://www.milindcom.ru/news/?id=493

Apparently the Iveco Lynx will be seen in the Victory Day Parade in Moscow, as well as Rostov-on-the-Don. Observers say 4 trucks were seen during the parade practice, supposedly they are part of the 10 purchased from Iveco for experimental exploitation and testing. The 150 being put together this year are going to South MD, probably SpetzNaz.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/217379.html

Finally another bit of news, the VDV is actively pushing for procurement of the BMD-4M. The General HQ wants a new BMD based on the new Kurganets-25 platform, however Shamanov (commander of the VDV) claims that the lack of BMD-4M purchases is a mistake, and it will be corrected soon.

http://twower.livejournal.com/792836.html

 

[Feanor]

The new Tornado-G will be present at the Victory Day Parade in Rostov-on-the-Don along with the Lynx. That is one parade I can't wait to see pics from.

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However the article makes some pretty strange claims about the system. It seemed originally that the Tornado MLRS system was a remounting of the Grad, and Smerch launch tubes on Kamaz chassis, with new FCS, sat-nav, and upgraded munitions. This article suggests a larger BAZ chassis, and larger combat modules for the Smerch, and an Uragan upgrade. It may however be that they're conflating the Uragan-1M program with the Tornado program.

Also here's a pic of the Ural Taifun MRAP, at parade practice in Yekaterinburg. This should be a prototype, as no serial procurements have been made.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/221067.html?view=3550603#t3550603

Here's a pic of the Kamaz Taifun allegedly on formal trials in an MoD unit.

http://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2011-12/1322840449_0_69a45_17b1abab_xxxl.jpg

There is an unknown combat module on top of it, and rumors were that a remote-controlled machinegun module was being designed for the Taifuns.

Among other interesting news the Coalition-SV double-barreled artillery piece is still being developed, despite the fact that MoD supposedly cut funding back in 2009. We may see it in production yet.

http://twower.livejournal.com/796871.html

Also a 19 billion rouble contract for T-72 modernization has been signed. Apparently 360 T-72 tanks will be modernized by 2015.

http://twower.livejournal.com/797065.html

Finally Shamanov re-stated that the VDV will opt for the BMD-4M. However it seems that a "digitized" version of it is expected in 2016. He seemed to suggest that the VDV may purchase the current BMD-4M right now, and install the upgraded comm gear and GLONASS systems later. However he's been trying to push through re-armament for the VDV with current generation vehicles, instead of waiting for a new type. It's not immediately clear that this will work.

http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2012/05/4.html

 

[Feanor]

Quite shocking to be honest, but Russia is currently testing two Italian Centauro fire support vehicles, carrying a 105mm main gun, 125mm main gun, and is waiting on the delivery of another Centauro with a 120mm gun, and a Freccia APC with a 30mm gun.

This would be a much larger purchase in terms of its effect on the Russian Army, then the Lynx MRAP. After all the Lynx is the light MRAP, that is meant to work together with the Taifun MRAPs, and Tigr armored cars. The Freccia on the other hand is a whole family of combat vehicles on the same chassis. It's a direct competitor to the Bumerang program being developed right now as the next family of medium wheeled vehicles for the Land Forces. It would mean that the already complex model for two types of medium brigades, one on wheeled vehicles, and one on tracked, would get even more complex with some wheeled brigades using domestic vehicles, and some using Italian imports. Finally there is the issue of time tables. None of these brigades would be re-armed instantly. So for a considerable period of time the land forces medium brigades would be of 7 different types" MT-LB, BTR-80/82, BMP-2, BMP-3, Freccia, Bumerang, and Kurganets-25 (the new medium tracked chassis). Light brigades are already a mess using Tigr armored cars, UAZ un-armored cars, and Lynx MRAPs (also currently testing Scorpion light armored cars). A very regrettable state of affairs considering that one of the original points of the reform was to reduce the multitude of different platforms in service to several main types.

There is some speculation that Centauro and Freccia are being lobbied by Kamaz, as a competitor to the GAZ development of the Bumerang, and that the current trials are not indicative of an actual intent to purchase the vehicles, but similar rumors surrounded the purchase of the Lynx MRAP, which was also originally a Kamaz project.

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bmpd - Centauro
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http://vz.ru/economy/2012/5/12/578510.html
http://lenta.ru/news/2012/05/12/centauro/

Also an update, what was reported as Tornado-G deliveries to South MD units was actually 2B26 Grad MLRS remounted on the Kamaz chassis. The Tornado-G is still undergoing state trials, with deliveries to start sometime this year.

bmpd -

 

[Methos]

The Centauro is the only selling part of it's family, the other vehicles are mostly only prototypes and the other ones that like the Freccia enter service do so only in Italy.
Russia has to open (and probably will open) their country for more imports of arms to get the best possible equipment they can afford for their money. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union the Russians did have only very few competition between their arms and vehicle manufacturers. It's good if they open up.
A completely different point is how probable it is that the Russians will buy the Italian Centauros (and Freccias). In case of the Lynx the Russian industry did not have a good competitor. The Centauro on the other hand is not alone and has to prove itself against the Bumerang project, older vehicles already in service, the Russian patriotism and against the Russian politics. I would doubt that it will enter service in the Russian Land Forces.
That the Freccia or other vehicles of this familty will be introduced in the Russian Army seems to be even more improbable IMO. If the Russians would open up their procurement to such a degree that they would like to prefer Freccia and Centauro above their own designs, then it seems to be possible that also other Western vehicle families could be tested - then the Freccia (and the Bumerang) would have to compete against vehicles like the AMV, Boxer or Pirhana family.

 

[Knjaz]

Haven't visited these forums for quite some time.

I suppose it remains to be seen. I don't disagree with your assessment. To be honest I really wish they would show object 195 to the public. After all the project is no longer MoD funded, and UVZ is still supposedly completing the development in hopes of securing an export contract. It would certainly give us a very good idea of what to expect from the Armata.

I'd say it's highly unlikely, that government would agree to put Obj. 195 on export, due to various reasons. It's just too advanced (which also translates into being expensive). UVZ would be required to create a down-graded version of that vehicle, what Armata already will be, de-facto.

Remember, that the main reason for not putting Obj.195 into production was it's price combined with unreadiness of MIC to produce such complicated vehicle in large numbers, which required very large funds to upgrade production capabilities.
As a result it was decided that there's no need in a tank that requires such large investments into both industry and the tank itself.

Do you know what the design philosophy for the MBT is? Tank v Tank combat? Infantry support? Will it be designed with urban combat as part of its mission parameters?

In addition to Feanor's answer - high level of autonomy is one of requirements for perspective MBT (both Obj. 195 and Armata). Crew should be able to stay in tank for prolonged period of time, without leaving it. (in the open unofficial sources - up to 2 days without leaving the vehicle).
This requirement is directly related to the capability to conduct operations in the hostile environment (irradiated, poisoned, infected, etc)
I would say it corresponds with the current Doctrine.

 

[Feanor]

In addition to Feanor's answer - high level of autonomy is one of requirements for perspective MBT (both Obj. 195 and Armata). Crew should be able to stay in tank for prolonged period of time, without leaving it. (in the open unofficial sources - up to 2 days without leaving the vehicle).
This requirement is directly related to the capability to conduct operations in the hostile environment (irradiated, poisoned, infected, etc)
I would say it corresponds with the current Doctrine.

It'll be interesting if they come through on the full family of heavy tracked vehicles. The thing is that right now the Land Forces operate the following heavy tracked chassis:

Heavy APC (BMO-T)
Rocket-Flamethrower (TOS-1A)
Auto-loader for above (TZM)
MBT (T-72/T-80/T-90)
SP Arty 152mm (2S3, 2S19)
Bridge-layer (I forget the index)
Heavy SAM (S-300V)
Armored Recovery Vehicle (BREM-1)
Engineer Vehicle (IMR-2)

I think that's all. In addition they want a heavy IFV for the new heavy brigades. But so far the only vehicles announced on the new chassis are the IFV, the tank, and the ARV. Which to me seems problematic, because as of right now the TZM and TOS-1A are still in production with T-72B chassis no less (T-90A for Kazakhstan). The BREM-1M is also still in production, as is the BMO-T. So they won't be leaving service any time soon. And there isn't a replacement for the Msta-S in development right now, not since the MoD has decide to opt out on the Coalition-SV project. And the Msta-S is still in production. They've even completed development of a new Msta-M variant, which has yet to enter service. I doubt they will want to transplant the existing Msta-M or S variant onto a new chassis, so it's likely that it will serve alongside the new Armata, despite having a chassis that's derived from T-80 and T-72 combined. The S-300V4 is in production right now with a chassis also derived from the T-80.

In other words there will be a large number of vehicles on heavy tracked chassis that will not be quickly replaced with an Armata equivalent. I think that largely defeats the purpose of having a unified heavy tracked chassis.

 

[amirhessam]

Russia Testing Italian Tank

Russia is testing Italy's Centauro wheeled tank and considering building it under license, a representative of the Oto-Melara company which makes the tank said on Saturday.

"The first two machines with 105-mm and 125-mm guns are on trial at a Moscow Region proving ground," he said.
Two more Centauros with 120-mm and 30-mm guns will also join the trials in another six weeks. "The tanks will take part in laboratory, driving and firing trials," the Oto-Melara representative said.
When the trials are complete at the end of this year, Russia will consider creating a joint venture for production of the tank with an enterprise from the Russian military-industrial complex, he said.
Russian truck maker Kamaz in Naberezhny Chelny could be involved in the deal, according to a source in Russian arms sales holding Rosoboronexport.
Commenting on the report that Russia is considering building Centauro tanks under license, Yury Borisov, first deputy head of the military-industrial commission, said Russia will only buy foreign weapon models on a one-off basis to study the manufacturing technology and then set up its own production.
A number of military experts earlier said licensed production of those machines in Russia is unlikely.
Russia signed a deal with Italy in December for the semi-knocked down assembly of 60 Lynx light multirole armored vehicles (LMV) from Iveco, Deputy Defense Minister Alexander Sukhorukov said in January.
Oto-Melara, part of the Italian Finnmeccanica group, is part of the CIO joint venture with vehicle manufacturer Iveco to make military vehicles.
Italy already has 400 Centauros in service. The 24 ton tank has a four-man crew, top speed of 100 km/h (60 mph) and range of 800 km (500 miles). It has a main gun and two 7.62 mm machineguns.
http://militaryparsi.ir/en/Defence-News/164-Public-News/1701-Russia-Testing-Italian-Tank.html