Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

[Feanor]

An interesting update, South MD will receive 50 Lynx MRAPs for recon units, and 10 Tigr-M. At a glance this looks like a scale back of the Tigr-M in favor of the Lynx, this is deceptive. The numbers here mentioned likely don't include units going to the SpetzNaz GRU, as the total number of Lynxes to be procured is supposedly 150. The numbers of the Tigr-M here mentioned similarly don't include the units going to SpetzNaz. Also these numbers don't include the Tigr vehicles going to other military districts.

There is also a number of them being purchased in non-standard configurations, and that are definitely not going to recon units, including at least 10 brand new EW vehicles on the Tigr chassis, and an unspecified number of Grusha UAV carriers on the Tigr base. Also likely but not confirmed are deliveries of SatCom vehicles, and radiostations based on the Tigr chassis. So realistically we can expect anywhere between 25 and 200 Tigr armored cars to be handed over this year.

bmpd -

 

[TGracchus]

Hey everyone, new to the forums here.

I've been doing a lot of digging and research lately on the BTR-90, and while I know future purchases of the vehicle were rejected by the MoD, what actually happened to the program itself? Seems like it just about dropped off the face of the earth news wise once those announcements were made.

Are they still producing units as part of the 2007-2015 plan, or for export, or is production completely ceased altogether? and did the army actually get any units save the small early batch, did they all go to the MVD, or alternatively are just rotting away somewhere in storage?

All the news sources seem pretty vague on these things, save the refusal of purchase and limitation of export potential.

 

[Feanor]

Hey everyone, new to the forums here.

I've been doing a lot of digging and research lately on the BTR-90, and while I know future purchases of the vehicle were rejected by the MoD, what actually happened to the program itself? Seems like it just about dropped off the face of the earth news wise once those announcements were made.

Are they still producing units as part of the 2007-2015 plan, or for export, or is production completely ceased altogether? and did the army actually get any units save the small early batch, did they all go to the MVD, or alternatively are just rotting away somewhere in storage?

All the news sources seem pretty vague on these things, save the refusal of purchase and limitation of export potential.

The Army didn't get any. The MVD might have received a very small batch, but they were never sighted so it's unlikely. No serial production was ever started. One of the reasons for the program getting shut down was that the cost of starting up production of the BTR-90 was fairly high, and the performance meant that it was not going to be the next-gen APC for the Army or MVD.

At least two prototypes were produced, one with a 2A42 cannon, and one with the Bakhcha-U module, and they're still occasionally displayed at arms expos. Probably several more were used up in trials. I'm not sure there ever were any more then that.

The BTR-90 program became part of the technological basis for the Gilza program, which later turned into the Bumerang program, which is the current next-gen wheeled platform under development.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Felin

Looks like Russia is seeking to purchase FELIN future soldier kits from France.

Russia in talks with France on 'future soldier' gear | Defense | RIA Novosti

As always, plans have been announced to create an analogous system.

One Russian commentator has noted that future soldier gear such as FELIN are more suited to small unit special forces action and I tend to agree.. IMHO it would be more practical for Russia to focus on more mainstream gear such as modern scopes and digital radios for the individual soldier. Thoughts?

 

[Feanor]

I was under the impression that FELIN had already been bought in small number of SpetzNaz use.

There are competing domestic projects, including a Permyachka-2 set, and some formal state-procurement related program for future individual tactical gear, with an ominous 2015 "completion" date.

On another interesting note, Russia has expressed interest in acquiring 500 Patria AMVs from Finland.

bmpd -
 

However it's that number is downright tiny, given the needs of the Russian Army (enough for ~2 motor-rifle brigades if that), and given that the Bumerang project is still proceeding, it's unlikely they will scrap it in favor of an imported variant, especially given that they intend to develop a whole family of vehicles rather then just an APC.

 

[Klaus]

Does somebody know the current size of the Russian ground forces? Some years ago they had about 360.000 soldiers, I wonder how many of them are left today.

 

[Haavarla]

Was that figure 360.000 fighting personel, or totaly within its branch?

 

[Klaus]

To be honest I don't know. I think this figure didn't include civilian employees as the total strength of the armed forces would have been to high then. Because of this I suppose there were 360.000 soldiers in the army some years ago. Now they probably have about 300.000, but I'd like to know the exact number.

 

[Corio]

RIAN has published an article today regarding a new armored infantry vehicle that is to be produced as a result of a French-Russian project within the next 18 months (can't post link, still to small for that ). Does anyone have any more info on it?

Seems that recently Russia is reaching out more and more for military equipment (or at least there seems to be a significant increase in such "projects"). Is it due to an internal competition between manufacturers trying to get a slice of the pie as the Boomerang and other projects might find them cold in the rain, an attempt to get access to new technology or just that Russian military industrial complex is just unable to satisfy the current demands? (There is also the alternative of the good old "money for the right people").

Also, it seems that Russian will resume supplies to Egypt for previous contracts.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Speculative renderings of the next generation tracked and wheeled armored vehicles under development for the Russian ground forces have appeared online.

bmpd -

Laid out are pictures of a Kurganets tracked and Bumerang wheeled command vehicles, as well as an EW complex on the Bumerang platform. Posters have noted the Bumerang's similarity to the Finish Patria AMV and Swiss MOWAG Piranha.

Personally, I find the Kurganets IFV to be similar to the prospective Ground Combat Vehicle under development in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GCV_Infantry_Fighting_Vehicle.jpg

 

[Feanor]

Here's the proposed recon variant.

bmpd -

These are just hypotheticals, however hypotheticals from a fairly reliable source.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Regarding Russian artillery, which piece is most likely to become the standard 152mm self propelled gun in the future - the 2S3, 2S5 or MSTA?

As well, are there any plans for a 152/155mm piece on the Armata platform?

 

[Feanor]

Regarding Russian artillery, which piece is most likely to become the standard 152mm self propelled gun in the future - the 2S3, 2S5 or MSTA?

As well, are there any plans for a 152/155mm piece on the Armata platform?

The 2S5 has been phased out of the land forces entirely. Only the Coastal Troops still use it. The 2S3 and 2S19 will serve side by side. Msta production is too slow to phase out the 2S3, and the piece is pretty old at that. There originally were plans for every type of heavy tracked vehicle on the Armata platform, but currently only 3 are under immediate development, an ARV, an IFV, and an MBT. Eventually there will be a new SP Arty, probably on the Armata chassis, but it's quite a ways away. Hence continuing upgrade programs for the 2S3 and 2S19.

 

[Feanor]

In addition to the Kurganets, and Bumerang, a third medium chassis is being developed under OKR Arktika. It's a tracked APC for arctic conditions, based on the DT-4PB. The contract was given to UVZ (the producer of the T-90A).

bmpd -

Currently the combat module from the BMPT is being considered for use the D-BTR which is supposedly the name of the APC. In the future a SAM, SP mortar and Arty, engineer support, and other vehicles are to be built on the same chassis.

This is rather strange. Currently there is only one brigade that would qualify for use of such equipment, the 200th Motor-Rifles. I suppose the 61st Marine Rgt in the North Fleet could also try to make use of these vehicles, but there are no other major mechanized formations that far North. There was earlier talk of having two arctic MRBs, but even that would not mean a production run large enough to justify something like this. Given the niche nature of the project export prospects are slim to put it mildly.

 

[alexkvaskov]

How many T-72s were upgraded with the Rogatka package? Does the GPV foresee any meaningful numbers of T-72s fitted with the upgrades through 2020?

 

[Feanor]

How many T-72s were upgraded with the Rogatka package? Does the GPV foresee any meaningful numbers of T-72s fitted with the upgrades through 2020?

0. The Rogatka program never went into state procurement. In fact it seems that the program was so unappealing that it has yet to win any export contracts. Chavez went for T-72B1s with minor upgrades. The Russian Land Forces are getting T-72s refitted with K-5 ERA, and the FCS from the T-90A. Upgraded Russian T-72Bs have a characteristic gap in the K-5 tiles between the gun and the ERA tile, where the IR projector used to be.

There are several hundred T-72s planned for upgrade by 2015 to the BM variant.

Another fun fact the Russian military is right now between 200 000 and 350 000 short of TO&E numbers. Additional units will be created with the purpose of bringing the Russian military to numbers. Currently 10 brigades of Army Aviation, 10 reconnaissance brigades, and 2 SAM brigades are planned.

This still won't bridge the gap, but it's a start.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/291291.html

This explains the planned increase in contract soldiers quite nicely. They simply have no choice.

 

[alexkvaskov]

After digging online for a while, I finally found some info regarding modern Russian thermals:
Gur Khan attacks!:

It seems that that the optics plant in Krasnogorsk, which made Zenit film cameras in the 60s and 70s, has developed modern commander and gunner's sights.
The Agat-MDT commander's sight is planned to enter production sometime this year, and the Irbis-K gunner's sight next year.

ÐŸÑ€ÐµÐ·ÐµÐ½Ñ‚Ð°Ñ†Ð¸Ñ Ð¾Ð¿Ñ‹Ñ‚Ð½Ñ‹Ñ… образцов новых изделий - Открытое акционерное общеÑтво «КраÑногорÑкий завод им. С.Ð. Зверева»

No information is available as yet whether the Russian MOD has purchased any or intends to. According to KMZ, the sights are undergoing trials.

I also came across the "Infravid" federal target program on several forums, supposedly a program sponsored by the Russian government to develop thermal sights. Does anyone have any info on this program, provided it's even real, and if so, what relation it has to KMZ's optics, current state, etc.

 

[alexkvaskov]

0. The Rogatka program never went into state procurement. In fact it seems that the program was so unappealing that it has yet to win any export contracts. Chavez went for T-72B1s with minor upgrades. The Russian Land Forces are getting T-72s refitted with K-5 ERA, and the FCS from the T-90A. Upgraded Russian T-72Bs have a characteristic gap in the K-5 tiles between the gun and the ERA tile, where the IR projector used to be.

There are several hundred T-72s planned for upgrade by 2015 to the BM variant.

What exactly did the MOD dislike about it? A bit of a stopgap I guess, until the Armata enters production. How much more expensive is it to upgrade a T-90A to AM standard than equip a T-72 with ERA and T-90A FCS?

 

[Feanor]

What exactly did the MOD dislike about it?

Cost, I'm guessing, though to be honest there is no clear answer.

A bit of a stopgap I guess, until the Armata enters production. How much more expensive is it to upgrade a T-90A to AM standard than equip a T-72 with ERA and T-90A FCS?

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to get at? There is no cost for upgrading a T-90A to AM. I imagine it would be quite expensive, given that it would mean replacing the turret, and engine at least. I think that the reasoning behind upgrading the T-72s was that they could get more for the money, as a stopgap measure, by upgrading the T-72s.

 

[Knjaz]

Some interesting pictures of different combat modules on different platforms from Rogozin's visit to MIC's factories in Perm'.

http://picru.net/images/2012/07/29/RUktl.jpg
http://picru.net/images/2012/07/29/OTpqL.jpg
http://picru.net/images/2012/07/29/uzdi4.jpg

Taken from here:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkiwSYgbXg0"]Визит Рогозина - YouTube[/nomedia]

About last screen - might be disinformation, might be not. 2 out of 3 good sources say it's Armata.
P.S. If it's real one, someone head's in the appropriate department will get cut off, I guess =\