Royal New Zealand Air Force

[RegR]

8 C-130Js, 18 F-16s and a few CN types would be very helpful to NZ and its defence force, therefore we will definately not get them, mite try again in 10 years should have another plan/vision/direction/dream or three by then.

But seriously regarding transport it'll all depend on what options could be afforded with what AC they will go with and I beleive the contenders would be A400,C130J,C27 and C295. Obviously we would not get as many A400s as we would C130Js however the grizzlys would solve most of our heavy lift problems ie NZLAV/NH90 but the number of Js we 'could' possibly aqquire would take care of the aviailability issues. A similar situation would apply to the C27 vs C295 idea to a degree. The Js also have the proven therefore less risky tick over the A400 and that factor cannot be underestimated come decision time, although the longer we wait the less it becomes an issue.

At the end of the day (or probably decade) it will come down to costs, number of acheivable platforms and tasks able to be ticked off that secures our future air transport and on saying that I would like to see 4-5 A400s/4-6 CN295s with plan B 8 C130Js/6 CN295s. A big spend required however for such an important national/regional/international element a worthy one I feel.

 

[ngatimozart]

As well as the C130XJ Variant mentioned earlier Lockheed are introducing a Sea Herc. This being an affordable replacement for the P3. "The new variant will provide a wide spectrum of MPA and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance mission capabilities using roll on/roll off systems. The patrol radius and endurance is on par with the P-3, but it features a new airframe and updated ASW systems. The variant also saves costs by leveraging existing C-130J fleet infrastructure, support system, spares and training." Singapore: Lockheed Unveils Plans for 2 C-130 Variants | Defense News | defensenews.com
This looks like an interesting option and would appeal to NZ. Beauty is Lockheed having built upgraded P3 etc will be highly familiar with whats required. So what if we bought 12 of the Sea Hercs and 4 or 5 sets of the modules. It would give us a hell of a lot of flexibilty then and the cost savings would be enormous because we would only have to support and sustain one type instead of two. Now if NZDF were to buy the CN235 and some MPA modules for them we would be in bean counter heaven with support and sustainability costs.

 

[recce.k1]

As well as the C130XJ Variant mentioned earlier Lockheed are introducing a Sea Herc. This being an affordable replacement for the P3.

This looks like an interesting option and would appeal to NZ. Beauty is Lockheed having built upgraded P3 etc will be highly familiar with whats required. So what if we bought 12 of the Sea Hercs and 4 or 5 sets of the modules. It would give us a hell of a lot of flexibilty then and the cost savings would be enormous because we would only have to support and sustain one type instead of two. Now if NZDF were to buy the CN235 and some MPA modules for them we would be in bean counter heaven with support and sustainability costs.

Sure must be interesting times for those that undertake air mobility capability studies for defence and govt etc. There's development happening at all ends of the spectrum from light to heavy and plenty of opportunities to depoly them to all sorts of locations at present. And then work in with the manuf's to self-improve ...

That Sea Herc could have greater application for typical NZG day-to-day mil/civil needs. But with the latest generation kit be quite useful for NORPAC (EEZ & ASW) patrols ...

Mind you I'm not saying disregard the P-8 option. That higher end capability would be a powerful asset to protect NZ interests (inc JATF at sea and land) and be a very useful survellience/deterrent capability in this region seeing there's no ACF and limited nos of Frigates etc).

 

[RegR]

Was'nt that the original idea when we first bought the hercs, to buy more to cover maritime patrol but then they eventually went with the P-3s? would be interesting to compare stats between the 2 and the newer P-8 on costings and performance.

 

[ngatimozart]

Was'nt that the original idea when we first bought the hercs, to buy more to cover maritime patrol but then they eventually went with the P-3s? would be interesting to compare stats between the 2 and the newer P-8 on costings and performance.

I was going to say that the Sea Herc would be a lot cheaper than the P8 but then the P8 is a B737 derivative and in a way the costs scales for production may not be significantly different. Think how many 737-700s and 737-800s Boeing have manufactured and the number C130Js that Lockheed have manufactured. Yes it would be very interesting to compare costs and capabilities between the two.

 

[CJohn]

The eagerly awaited Official launch of the RNZAF NH90 Helicopters held at Wellington today, to be known locally as the Warrior. HERE

 

[ngatimozart]

I was having a read on Wikipedia today about the NH90 in relation to a comment I was making on another forum and I saw that it can carry two NATO pallets. That's interesting that the NH90 being able to carry 2 NATO pallets because the C27J can only take 3 x 463L pallets which are 88in wide and 108in long and have to be turned sideways to fit into the aircarft. Since the NH90 can carry 2 x NATO pallets one then wonders whether this would preclude a buy of an Andover replacement. I know presumption is the mother of all stuffups, but I am assuming the NATO pallet is the 463L. If this is the case then maybe it would be cheaper in the long run to operate the NH90 doing 2 pallet missions in country rather than a C27J program, even if it means procurement of say another 2 x NH90s. I realise helo operating costs are higher than fixed wing but in the long term what would be the most cost effective option? Thoughts anyone?

 

[Todjaeger]

I was having a read on Wikipedia today about the NH90 in relation to a comment I was making on another forum and I saw that it can carry two NATO pallets. That's interesting that the NH90 being able to carry 2 NATO pallets because the C27J can only take 3 x 463L pallets which are 88in wide and 108in long and have to be turned sideways to fit into the aircarft. Since the NH90 can carry 2 x NATO pallets one then wonders whether this would preclude a buy of an Andover replacement. I know presumption is the mother of all stuffups, but I am assuming the NATO pallet is the 463L. If this is the case then maybe it would be cheaper in the long run to operate the NH90 doing 2 pallet missions in country rather than a C27J program, even if it means procurement of say another 2 x NH90s. I realise helo operating costs are higher than fixed wing but in the long term what would be the most cost effective option? Thoughts anyone?

The first thing which comes immediately to mind is that it is wiki and therefore suspect. The second is that carrying capacity an internal capacity, or an underslung load? If it is an underslung load, then that still might not work even with more NH-90's. After all, the C-27J, C-295 and CN-235 all have a significant range and speed advantage Especially if one takes into account the amount of drag an underslung load would add.

-Cheers

 

[Cadredave]

I was having a read on Wikipedia today about the NH90 in relation to a comment I was making on another forum and I saw that it can carry two NATO pallets. That's interesting that the NH90 being able to carry 2 NATO pallets because the C27J can only take 3 x 463L pallets which are 88in wide and 108in long and have to be turned sideways to fit into the aircarft. Since the NH90 can carry 2 x NATO pallets one then wonders whether this would preclude a buy of an Andover replacement. I know presumption is the mother of all stuffups, but I am assuming the NATO pallet is the 463L. If this is the case then maybe it would be cheaper in the long run to operate the NH90 doing 2 pallet missions in country rather than a C27J program, even if it means procurement of say another 2 x NH90s. I realise helo operating costs are higher than fixed wing but in the long term what would be the most cost effective option? Thoughts anyone?

Boy been hearing a strange Helo flying over Wanganui lately so went outside to have a look and what a site to see NH90 going full tit, had a deep sound to it and the power cant wait to get a lift in that baby sorry Huey I think i found a new love.

CD

 

[ngatimozart]

The first thing which comes immediately to mind is that it is wiki and therefore suspect. The second is that carrying capacity an internal capacity, or an underslung load? If it is an underslung load, then that still might not work even with more NH-90's. After all, the C-27J, C-295 and CN-235 all have a significant range and speed advantage Especially if one takes into account the amount of drag an underslung load would add.

-Cheers

Was aware of accuracy of wiki hen I wrote it so thats why I stated the source. Did a hunt through NH Industries looking for accurte info and all I got was that it can carry NATO pallets.Didn't say how many. I would presume internally and not as a slung load. Also max weight is 4 tonnes or 4.5 tonnes so if it is 2 pallets woud be light pallets. IIRC a pallet would theoretically slot in. There are also 54in pallets - 1/2 pallets so it might be those.

 

[ngatimozart]

Boy been hearing a strange Helo flying over Wanganui lately so went outside to have a look and what a site to see NH90 going full tit, had a deep sound to it and the power cant wait to get a lift in that baby sorry Huey I think i found a new love.

CD

Haven't seen nor heard but have memories of long flights in irowhokka whokkas with momentous hangovers. Not nice.

 

[MrConservative]

Since I am thousands of km's away could someone who is going to the RNZAF 75th Anniversary Airshow at OH this weekend take some snaps and upload them on the DT Gallery. If one of you lot have been lurking alongside the perimeter fence this past week during Kiwi Flag 12 even better.

If you are going - have a great weekend guys.

 

[recce.k1]

Since I am thousands of km's away could someone who is going to the RNZAF 75th Anniversary Airshow at OH this weekend take some snaps and upload them on the DT Gallery. If one of you lot have been lurking alongside the perimeter fence this past week during Kiwi Flag 12 even better.

If you are going - have a great weekend guys.

There's a bit of a preview from today's TVNZ news here.

But you might end up throwing a book at your computer screen as TVNZ's Michael Parkin has done another political beat-up, this time wasting the good vibes of the report whinging about NZDF personnel not involved in the show having to pay the $10 entry fee per person (or $30 for a family of up to 5). FFS $10NZ is cheap value for an international airshow! At current rates that's only a US$8.22 or AU$7.90 entry fee, I'm sure NZDF personnel won't be broke paying $10! (One could buy a pint of beer for $10 and down it in a moment, as compared to an airshow with a 5 hour flying programme)! In fact the report is somewhat contradictory as it mentions NZDF personnel have always paid an entry fee if not directly involved

And talking about being confused confused , Labour's shadow Defence spokesman (Mr Lees-Galloway) who is featured, has been at the forefront of recent beatups against the Govt and defence morale. Has anyone seen a report on the morale issues within the NZDF? Sure I agree there has been issues (such as experienced personnel leaving in greater numbers than anticipated eg making mid-life family/career changes and to take up jobs in the high paying minerals sector & the Navy has been rooted somewhat), but the new Defmin finally took a swing at Mr Lees-Galloway (being in his constituency he regularly attacks the Govt defence policy in the local rags) in one of the free community newspapers, Guardian News Manawatu (see page 2) where the defin says survey's state "80 percent of of the NZDF rate their personnel morale as between satisfactory and excellent. 83% rate their employment in the NZDF as between satisfactory and excellent". (This was in response to this earlier article on page 13) So who do we, the public, believe? The Opposition or the Defmin? Perhaps both have a point depending on how one uses the stats (hence why I was wondering if this survey has been made public so we can judge who is correct and who is using Defence as a political football etc).

 

[MrConservative]

NZ media reporting following the recent Auditor Generals report.

New NH-90 airforce choppers flawed - national | Stuff.co.nz

Interesting comments from the AG regarding the necessity for the NZDF to buy proven
OTS products. The enthusiasm for the NH-90 from the then Government for it was based on that the aircraft was able to meet the Army specifications during mock up testing of internal dimensions undertaken at WP some years ago and a then political keenness to procure European.

 

[Marc 1]

NZ media reporting following the recent Auditor Generals report.

New NH-90 airforce choppers flawed - national | Stuff.co.nz

Interesting comments from the AG regarding the necessity for the NZDF to buy proven
OTS products. The enthusiasm for the NH-90 from the then Government for it was based on that the aircraft was able to meet the Army specifications during mock up testing of internal dimensions undertaken at WP some years ago and a then political keenness to procure European.

Well, at least that proves that the run of the mill Aussie journo isn't the only uneducated idiot when it comes to defence matters.

 

[MrConservative]

Well, at least that proves that the run of the mill Aussie journo isn't the only uneducated idiot when it comes to defence matters.

The original edition of the report printed and circulated did not even have any comments from the CDF as this updated one now does and did not report that most of the facts collated for the AG report were more than 12 months old.

The real disappointment is that this shock value reporting has lead to unfounded public scorn and beating up on the NZDF by the uninformed public and partisan politics.

 

[recce.k1]

The original edition of the report printed and circulated did not even have any comments from the CDF as this updated one now does and did not report that most of the facts collated for the AG report were more than 12 months old.

Agree (and admittedly I didn't make that clear when mentioning the report on NZDF thread) i.e. the period the AG was commenting on is now nearly 1 year ago and since then NHI/NZDF has been working through the issues.

Like the F-35 "controversies", NH-90 is a new platform developed from scratch hence bedding in issues .... it's up to NHI to ensure this new platform is fully functional (i.e. not the fault of the NZDF). I'd imagine the NH-90 is yet to be accepted by the NZ MoD yet...

 

[Cadredave]

Well, at least that proves that the run of the mill Aussie journo isn't the only uneducated idiot when it comes to defence matters.

Mate i think our journos must learn from the same text book your lot learn from as well we,ve got some classic muppets on this side of the ditch too.

CD

 

[Sea Toby]

Mate i think our journos must learn from the same text book your lot learn from as well we,ve got some classic muppets on this side of the ditch too.

CD

Journalists are only interested in controversy, not true facts. Controversy sells papers, not cold hard true facts.

If the journalist had any credentials, she/he would have left their chair by their desk in their office and asked questions to those military personnel who are operating the helicopters. I am curious what the pilots and maintenance crews think of the helicopter, not some auditor pencil pusher.

 

[recce.k1]

I am curious what the pilots and maintenance crews think of the helicopter, not some auditor pencil pusher.

Spoke to some RNZAF pilots transitioning to the NH-90 at the local airshow here a couple of weeks ago, as expected they were positive about the NH-90 and its capabilities. It's such a leap from the UH-1H etc.

The only 'bad' scuttlebutt one hear's occasionally (usually second hand and via the media of course) is the hourly operating cost (compared to the UH-1H), but that's to be expected (even if NZ had bought Blackhawks) and why the AW-109's will perform some light utility roles, freeing up the NH-90 for more demanding tasks and for overseas deployments.