Brazilian Naval Strength

[Salty Dog]

There is some buzz in Brazil that the Navy is looking at new construction frigates to replace the Niteroi (Vosper Mk-10) class. The plan is to begin construction of (3) new build 6,000 ton ships in 2011 (in Brazil).

Possible candidates are:

Hyundai KDX-2 class, 5,200 tons, US$420 M
Northrup Grumman, Hobart class, 6,250 tons, US$1 B (?)
DCNS, FREMM class, 6,500 tons, US$600 M

There is speculation the French have created a mega weapons systems package with attractive offsets to include torpedoes, BVR missiles, MANPADS, SAMs, and assistance with designing the next Brazilian aircraft carrier. This package would encompass Navy, Army, and Air Force and is highly dependent on the Rafale winning the FAB F-X2.

Stay tuned . . . . .

 

[Falstaff]

There is some buzz in Brazil that the Navy is looking at new construction frigates to replace the Niteroi (Vosper Mk-10) class. The plan is to begin construction of (3) new build 6,000 ton ships in 2011 (in Brazil).

Possible candidates are:

Hyundai KDX-2 class, 5,200 tons, US$420 M
Northrup Grumman, Hobart class, 6,250 tons, US$1 B (?)
DCNS, FREMM class, 6,500 tons, US$600 M

There is speculation the French have created a mega weapons systems package with attractive offsets to include torpedoes, BVR missiles, MANPADS, SAMs, and assistance with designing the next Brazilian aircraft carrier. This package would encompass Navy, Army, and Air Force and is highly dependent on the Rafale winning the FAB F-X2.

Stay tuned . . . . .

Interesting news, Salty Dog, esp. regarding the possible candidates. I didn't know the KDX-2 was up for sale at all and I guess this clearly would be an exotic choice compared to the other two. I'm wondering though if there won't be some others in the near future. Any idea when (and if) there will be an RFP?

 

[Spacearrow99]

There is some buzz in Brazil that the Navy is looking at new construction frigates to replace the Niteroi (Vosper Mk-10) class. The plan is to begin construction of (3) new build 6,000 ton ships in 2011 (in Brazil).

Possible candidates are:

Hyundai KDX-2 class, 5,200 tons, US$420 M
Northrup Grumman, Hobart class, 6,250 tons, US$1 B (?)
DCNS, FREMM class, 6,500 tons, US$600 M

There is speculation the French have created a mega weapons systems package with attractive offsets to include torpedoes, BVR missiles, MANPADS, SAMs, and assistance with designing the next Brazilian aircraft carrier. This package would encompass Navy, Army, and Air Force and is highly dependent on the Rafale winning the FAB F-X2.

Stay tuned . . . . .

I haven't heard any rumblings about such a deal. When would the next Brazilian carrier go into service?

 

[AegisFC]

Northrup Grumman, Hobart class, 6,250 tons, US$1 B (?)

The Baby Burke or the F-100 derivative?

 

[Salty Dog]

The Baby Burke or the F-100 derivative?

Neither. The Northrup Grumman design is a 5000 t "International Patrol Frigate" and is based on the USGC National Security Cutter.

 

[StevoJH]

Neither. The Northrup Grumman design is a 5000 t "International Patrol Frigate" and is based on the USGC National Security Cutter.

Hate to ask, but why did you call it the Hobart class then? As Aegis said, the two options for the Hobart were a Baby Burke or a Modified F100, F100 was chosen.

 

[Salty Dog]

Hate to ask, but why did you call it the Hobart class then? As Aegis said, the two options for the Hobart were a Baby Burke or a Modified F100, F100 was chosen.

The initial information was street buzz, but since then I've seen a bit more info on the Northrup Grumman project. Always good to keep updating info, especially when it's just street buzz.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Here is a article from a online French naval magazine. The article discusses future Brazilian Naval procurements.

Le portail des sous-marins > Les futurs projets de la marine brésilienne

The Brazilian Navy will be launching several tenders for AAW escorts, OPV/corvettes, a large logistics support ship, and a aircraft carrier.


Brazilians haven't decided yet on were to buy an LHD or and aircraft carrier.
Several countries plan to submit proposals for the Brazilian tenders.

France
FREMM
Gowind
Mistral
conventional CDG

Spain
F-100
BPE
25,000 logistics support ship

South Korea
KDX II
Dokdo
logistics support ship 20,000t

Germany
Sachsen (Type 124)
Braunschweig (Type K130)
logistics support ship Berlin Class

USA
AAW DDG 8,000 toons
5600 ton FFG
San Antonio Class LPD

All of the ships will be built in Brazilian shipyards. The Brazilians are currently analyzing the proposals; the tenders will be awarded in the following order OPV/corvettes, logistics support ship, AAW escorts, and then the aircraft carrier.

 

[swerve]

No mention of Italy in there, (Fincantieri does the lot), or German LHDs (TKMS MHD 200), or the Dutch, who can also fill all the slots (Damen Sigma corvettes, DZP AAW, Enforcer LPD/JSS), or BVT corvettes/OPVs. I'd expect all that lot to at least consider making offers. Have they offered & been rejected?

 

[Salty Dog]

No mention of Italy in there, (Fincantieri does the lot), or German LHDs (TKMS MHD 200), or the Dutch, who can also fill all the slots (Damen Sigma corvettes, DZP AAW, Enforcer LPD/JSS), or BVT corvettes/OPVs. I'd expect all that lot to at least consider making offers. Have they offered & been rejected?

It´s still open season in Brazil. No RFPs have been issued so contractors are busy marketing. All of them were present at LAAD earlier this year.

There are a number of articles is the various Brazilian military magazines on the various naval projects available worldwide.

Funding should not be a problem as the monies will come from royalties from offshore oilfield production.

It will be interesting to see if the RFPs will go out soon as 2010 is an election year. With the upbeat economy in Brazil, the current administration will want to take credit for resolving the shortage of ships and patrol vessels for the Brazilian Navy.

 

[RobWilliams]

This was the only thread that seemed suitable for this.

Brazil has taken a significant step toward building a new aircraft carrier by asking European shipyards to provide information on a potential design-and-build strategy

That's from this Aprils issue of Warships IFR, they wonder if it comes from the latest fire incident in February and is supposedly "becoming increasingly difficult to operate"

This'll be interesting to see develop

 

[icelord]

im constantly amazed with brazils increase and upgrades in its navy, and forces in general. They are building a nuclear sub from scratch, with US and Euro help in design. An amazing feet none the less, along with purchasing 4 scorpenes from france.
Its bid hard for Largs bay which lost out to the RAN, and it managed to score the 3 OPV from VT shipbuilding which Trinadad and tobago cancelled.
I would take it they are looking at replacing Sao Paulo, which is nearly 50 years old. It would be interesting to see whether they are considering a small LHD style in the Juan Carlos I, or something along the lines of Italys Cavour.
I do recall seeing the F35 was a late entry to brazils F-X2(as late as you can be to a 10 year old tender). could the F35B or F35C come into contention to supplement their ambitions?

 

[the concerned]

Wasn't Brazil offered the kitty hawk if they chose the f-18 superhornet as their new fighter.Also isn't brazil interested in the T-26 frigtes from the UK.Otherwise icould see Brazil and india doing some kind of military deal (KC-390/EMB-145 aew and super tucano for carrier/Lca)

 

[swerve]

Nobody has been offered the Kitty Hawk. Not India, not Brazil. And Brazil wouldn't touch her with a bargepole even as a gift.

It'd cost too much to run. Kitty Hawk had a crew of 5600 in the USN. That's three times what São Paulo needs for operating a full air group, i.e. more than she has in Brazilian service. Kitty Hawk is the same age as São Paulo, & I think has spent more time at sea. Her machinery is pretty well worn out. She'd cost a fortune to get into condition to keep operating, & a lot more to keep in that state. Brazil doesn't have anywhere near enough aircraft to fill her. By the time a full-sized F-18E/F air group could be ready, she'd be getting on for 60 years old.

The Brazilians would be much better off with a new-built carrier, & they know it.

Brazil is interested in new frigates. Type 26 is one of the options, but not necessarily the most favoured one.

India isn't in a position to offer Brazil a carrier. India is currently building a carrier with technical assistance from Italy, & production was delayed by the need for Indian steelmakers to learn how to make the right type of steel. Brazil would see seeking help from India as coals to Newcastle. It's looking for design assistance from European countries - including Italy - to build in Brazilian shipyards. Why ask the pupil when the teacher is available?

Brazil would prefer a carrier with catapults, & naval Tejas is both troubled & only equipped to take off from a ski-jump.

India isn't interested KC-390: it's involved in a joint project with Russia to build a rival. One could argue that it'd be better off buying into KC-390, but that seems very unlikely, because of the Russian deal. Brazil can't sell India EMB-145 AEW, because the radar & mission system on Brazilian AEW aircraft is Swedish. India is developing its own similar AEW radar, & doesn't need Brazil for it. Brazil can offer the EMB-145 as a platform - but that deal's already done.

India has already ordered PC-7 Mk II trainers from Switzerland, so has no use for Super Tucano.

So there you are. One of the possible deals you speculate about is done. A couple of others had potential, but it's too late for them. And the others just aren't on.

 

[RobWilliams]

Wasn't Brazil offered the kitty hawk if they chose the f-18 superhornet as their new fighter.Also isn't brazil interested in the T-26 frigtes from the UK.Otherwise icould see Brazil and india doing some kind of military deal (KC-390/EMB-145 aew and super tucano for carrier/Lca)

Last I heard the only deal was the OPV deal, the offer to be involved in the T26 program has been made but AFAIK that's all. Seems the Brazilians are doing the smat thing and weighing up the options before making a commitment.

IIRC isn't Brazils choice between T26 and FREMM? There are probably others but i can't for the life of me remember.

 

[swerve]

The OPV deal was fortuitous. Brazil was looking at an Italian design, but the vessels built for Trinidad & Tobago were too good an opportunity to miss, & it made sense to take an option to build more of the same, since the navy has a requirement for at least six.

 

[RobWilliams]

The OPV deal was fortuitous. Brazil was looking at an Italian design, but the vessels built for Trinidad & Tobago were too good an opportunity to miss, & it made sense to take an option to build more of the same, since the navy has a requirement for at least six.

It was a sensible + practial choice on their part. It was good they got picked up by Brazil otherwise the most likely option would be flogging them off at a pretty discounted rate to some other country.

Aren't 3 being being delivered with the rest being produced under license in Brazil?

 

[KiwiRob]

They are building a nuclear sub from scratch, with US and Euro help in design. An amazing feet none the less, along with purchasing 4 scorpenes from france.

I thought the Brazilians were building a Barracuda Class SSN?

 

[icelord]

I thought the Brazilians were building a Barracuda Class SSN?

Not from what im reading. Im gathering with frances help it will be similar to Barracuda as french companies are helping brazil build it.

According to Brazil’s MDD, the nuclear-powered submarine will be far larger, at 6,000t compared to the diesel-electric boats’ 1,400-1,800 tonnes. This is significantly larger than France’s existing SSN Rubis Amethyste class fast attack boats, which weigh in at around 2,730t submerged, and remains larger than France’s planned 5,300t SSN Barracuda class. Some of this can be accounted for by the need for more space, in order to accommodate larger early-stage nuclear propulsion systems. Even so, the famous USS Nautilus managed to displace only 3,500 tons. The most similar size analogues to Brazil’s proposed submarine is the India’s new Arihant class SSBN, which would raise questions concerning Brazil’s long-term nuclear intentions. Since nuclear weapons are specifically prohibited by Brazil’s current constitution, however, a large SSN fast attack vessel is almost certainly the goal. A 6,000t vessel would fit somewhere between France’s new SSN Barracuda class, and the USA’s 6,450t SSN Los Angeles class.

Construction of Brazil’s nuclear boat is expected to begin in 2015, and it’s expected to enter service in 2021. Cost for the submarine is pegged at about EUR 2 billion, with EUR 1.25 billion assigned to Brazil’s indigenous Project Aramar nuclear propulsion/ power program. DCNS’ role involves assistance with hull technology and construction, and with non-nuclear internal technologies.

Brazil & France in Deal for SSKs, SSN

 

[the concerned]

What do you think the chances are that brazil would sell some of these boats to Argentina .(hope not)