Brazilian Naval Strength

[swerve]

Brazil's naval doctrine is based on sea denial thru littoral suppression. She cannot and does not want to conduct blue water operations. If push comes to shove and she is at odds with a naval power like .... I can't even think of one realistically, say another 2nd tier navy then she will call on her big brother to the north, end of problem. All Brazil cares about is anti-submarine warfare with some limited strike capability which Sao Paulo is a shining example of. While it might be nice to have some AAW it's out of their budget. Looking at potential threats to Brazilian commerce, it's most likely going to be enemy subs and she has good ASW assests... very good.

Also needs to protect her offshore oil rigs, which while are of great importance to Brazils economy.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys i have a couple of questions here:

1)how does the brazilian tupi class compare to the scorpenes and the other submarines in the world?

2)what is the range,operational depth,maximum depth,weapon loads etc of the tupi class of submarines?

3)i would like to know if brazil has any indigenous anti shipping missile project(i remember reading about a so called project barracuda)?

 

[contedicavour]

hey guys i have a couple of questions here:

1)how does the brazilian tupi class compare to the scorpenes and the other submarines in the world?

2)what is the range,operational depth,maximum depth,weapon loads etc of the tupi class of submarines?

3)i would like to know if brazil has any indigenous anti shipping missile project(i remember reading about a so called project barracuda)?

The Tupis lack AIP to start with, while Scorpene have them.
Weapons are limited to 16 heavy torpedoes, no missiles (despite the fact that the Brazilian navy has both MM40 and AM39, there are no SM39), while Scorpenes are fitted for anti-ship missiles (up to the customer to decide whether to fit them or not of course).
Max depth is the standard 300metres (operational depth, because crushing depth is rather 500-600 metres though nobody'll test it unless he's sinking )
Range : 8200 miles at 8knots on the surface.

If you are interested visit the Brazilian Navy official site. It's not in English, but google translation may help you.

Brazil has no active national programme to replace the MM40 Exocets. Priorities are definitively elsewhere !

cheers

 

[isthvan]

Agree, but keeping a ship the size of the Foch/Sao Paulo in service just to fly around obsolete A4s is a bit of a shame. You also need several assets to protect it in case of overseas deployment. That's why when the French Super Etendards will start becoming available for rock-bottom prices in the next 5-10 years, it will be a good idea to buy them immediately.

cheers

Hi
I got question about Brazilian A-4s; did they receive modernization similar to Argentinean A-4s (AN/APG-66 radar)? If they are similar to Argentinean examples SE purchase wouldn’t make to much sense…
Also IIRC US offered French navy F-18 purchase as interim solution until Rafale M becomes available; IMHO ex. USN F-18 A/B would be better choice for A-4 replacement then Super Etendars ( if they can operate from Foch)…

 

[contedicavour]

Hi
I got question about Brazilian A-4s; did they receive modernization similar to Argentinean A-4s (AN/APG-66 radar)? If they are similar to Argentinean examples SE purchase wouldn’t make to much sense…
Also IIRC US offered French navy F-18 purchase as interim solution until Rafale M becomes available; IMHO ex. USN F-18 A/B would be better choice for A-4 replacement then Super Etendars ( if they can operate from Foch)…

Hornets cost still a lot more than Super Etendards... France will give them for free in a few years' time (in exchange for a contract allowing Dassault to update their electronics and fuselage a bit), while F18s still have a significant residual value and the F35s aren't coming until 2012 approx.
Although yes the F18s could in theory operate from the Foch, though the catapults need reinforcements and some adaptations would be needed to the lifts as well.
The A4s are ex Kuwaiti close air support fighterbombers, so they don't have a multi-function radar and thus cannot support any BVR AAMs.
Super Etendards would be better in anti-shipping roles with AM39 missiles (already in Brazilian inventory) and are equipped with Paveway guided bombs and can even launch cruise missiles !! Though yes the SEs cannot act as air superiority fighters since no BVR missiles (F18A/Bs could do that).

Bottomline, the Brazilian budget is very low and can't afford anything more than the almost-for-free Super Etendards

cheers

 

[kilo]

ya the super entendard is a very good plane for the price. brazil should buy more AM39 missles with the super entendards.

 

[Big-E]

Agree, but keeping a ship the size of the Foch/Sao Paulo in service just to fly around obsolete A4s is a bit of a shame. You also need several assets to protect it in case of overseas deployment. That's why when the French Super Etendards will start becoming available for rock-bottom prices in the next 5-10 years, it will be a good idea to buy them immediately.

cheers

Are you forgetting how much they paid for that rust bucket? My SuperHornet is worth more than that ship and her entire airwing. Her escorts are worth more than she is. Considering her cost I think having a wing of A-4s and some S-2s for under $100 million requires 0 protection that isn't on the ship already. If the A-4s can carry exocet then they don't need Super-Etendards... if they're going to spend that much money they might as well get Rafales. The only reason Brazil has a carrier is for prestige, they never planned to really use it.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Does Big-E means the USS Enterprise Task Force, the USN 7th Fleet ??

 

[murene]

aaaditya

1)how does the brazilian tupi class compare to the scorpenes and the other submarines in the world?

I find that in general terms the submarine scorpene(Chile) this it more evolved and with a design more modern to the Tupi class(Brazil).
- displacement in immersion
1590 tns - Tupi
1790 tns - scorpene
-weapons
6 TLT + 12 torpedos/misiles recharge SSM (blackshark - subexocet SM-39) - scorpene; total 18 weapons
8 TLT + 8 recharge torpedos (mk-24 Tigerfish)- Tupi; total 16 weapons
- power of the generators - diesel
4 x 420 kw = 1680 kw - Tupi
4x 632 kw = 2528 kw - scorpene
- power of the electric motor of propulsion
4600 HP - Tupi with a speed max of 21,5 knots
3800 HP-scorpene with a speed max of + 20 knots
- autonomy in immersion with electric propulsion to low speed
400 marine miles to 4 knots of Tupi
536 marine miles to 4 knots - scorpene
- autonomy in cruise with snorkel
8200 marine miles to 8 knots of speed in surface - Tupi
6500 marine miles to 8 knots of speed in surface - scorpene
-diving deep
250-300 mts - Tupi
350 mts - scorpene
- complement
36 - Tupi
32 - scorpene

 

[Big-E]

Does Big-E means the USS Enterprise Task Force, the USN 7th Fleet ??

What gave it away? Is the avatar not obvious enough along with my sig?:shudder

BTW Enterprise is no longer in PACFLT, she's ported in Norfolk.

 

[contedicavour]

Are you forgetting how much they paid for that rust bucket? My SuperHornet is worth more than that ship and her entire airwing. Her escorts are worth more than she is. Considering her cost I think having a wing of A-4s and some S-2s for under $100 million requires 0 protection that isn't on the ship already. If the A-4s can carry exocet then they don't need Super-Etendards... if they're going to spend that much money they might as well get Rafales. The only reason Brazil has a carrier is for prestige, they never planned to really use it.

I agree with you that the carrier is for prestige... but (i) A4s can't carry Exocets (all they have is a navigation radar !) and (ii) the carrier was handed over for not much, but imagine how much it costs to pay the salaries of the 1,000+ crew, plus maintenance of systems built in the late '50s...
If the carrier is attacked, Brazil can't afford to lose her (because of the 1,000+ crew) hence the need to protect her better with better jets and escorts.

cheers

 

[Big-E]

I agree with you that the carrier is for prestige... but (i) A4s can't carry Exocets (all they have is a navigation radar !) and (ii) the carrier was handed over for not much, but imagine how much it costs to pay the salaries of the 1,000+ crew, plus maintenance of systems built in the late '50s...
If the carrier is attacked, Brazil can't afford to lose her (because of the 1,000+ crew) hence the need to protect her better with better jets and escorts.

cheers

I think they need to moth ball her and just use the deck for practice.

 

[contedicavour]

I think they need to moth ball her and just use the deck for practice.

Or join forces with Argentina and make it pay part of the costs of maintaining the ship. Argentina could use her remaining Super Etendards from the Foch/Sao Paulo.

I think the ship could be useful if it served as a sort of LPH with the Sea Kings and Cougars of its Navy & Marine Corps.

cheers

 

[swerve]

Or join forces with Argentina and make it pay part of the costs of maintaining the ship. Argentina could use her remaining Super Etendards from the Foch/Sao Paulo.

I think the ship could be useful if it served as a sort of LPH with the Sea Kings and Cougars of its Navy & Marine Corps.

cheers

I seem to remember reading something about the Argentinean navy maintaining its carrier landing skills by practicing on Sao Paulo. Anyone know anything?

If she was to function as an LPH, that presupposes an amphibious assault. In that case, the A-4s might be useful, depending on the opposition, so she might be even more valuable as a carrier. Brazil has, AFAIK, a few old ex-US LSDs/LSTs. Ah yes - https://www.mar.mil.br/menu_h/navios/menu_navios.htm
3 of 'em.

 

[Gladius]

I seem to remember reading something about the Argentinean navy maintaining its carrier landing skills by practicing on Sao Paulo. Anyone know anything?

Actually the Argentine navy has been maintained doing that since his aircraft carrier "Veinticinco de Mayo" was declared inoperative in the last 80s. It's important recall that the Brazilian navy in spite of having the Minas Gerais, they lacked of fixed wing naval aviation during the 90s until the arrival of the A-4 Skyhawk from Kuwait (IIRC in 1998). It was and is now, very common to observe Argentine aircrafts in the Sao Paulo as was before in the Minas Gerais and of course during the annual celebration of the joint exercises ARAEX and TEMPEREX.

The Argentine Super Etendard (3-A-214) ready to take off from the Sao Paulo during the exercises ARAEX 02.
http://www.defesanet.com.br/noticia/araex/superetendard1.jpg

The Argentine Super Etendard (3-A-213) landing. http://www.defesanet.com.br/noticia/araex/superetendard.jpg

Two S-2T Tracker of the Argentine Navy over the flight deck of the CV Sao Paulo. http://saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorbats/MBSantos/images/popa A-12 con S-2T.jpg

Photo of the S-2T Tracker (2-AS-23) embarked upon the Sao Paulo. http://saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorbats/MBSantos/images/S2 ARA.jpg

 

[Sea Toby]

If Brazil is going to use the carrier as a landing ship, they would be better off with a couple of used Anchorage class LPDs. They are better amphibious ships with smaller crews. Since most of the Latin American nations are neutral concerning the rest of the world, an aircraft carrier in their fleets isn't necessary. Naval aircraft can be used from land bases in the defence of these nations EEZs and sea lanes.

 

[tatra]

If Brazil is going to use the carrier as a landing ship, they would be better off with a couple of used Anchorage class LPDs. They are better amphibious ships with smaller crews. Since most of the Latin American nations are neutral concerning the rest of the world, an aircraft carrier in their fleets isn't necessary. Naval aircraft can be used from land bases in the defence of these nations EEZs and sea lanes.

Looked at a map of Brazil lately? Lots of landmass, mostly rainforrest, not a whole lot of airbases. Nonetheless, long coast line and it has always straddled key shipping routes from the America's to Africa and Europe. If any country in South America could use and has use for a carries, I would think it was Brazil.

 

[contedicavour]

Looked at a map of Brazil lately? Lots of landmass, mostly rainforrest, not a whole lot of airbases. Nonetheless, long coast line and it has always straddled key shipping routes from the America's to Africa and Europe. If any country in South America could use and has use for a carries, I would think it was Brazil.

Well Brazil has a choice... either build airstrips for P3 Orions and install coastal radars and use frigates, corvettes and OPVs for patrol, or rely more entirely on the navy and beef it up with mini-carriers of the late "sea control ship" concept... though it would be more reasonable to have big OPVs with a couple of helos on each.

cheers

 

[tatra]

Well Brazil has a choice... either build airstrips for P3 Orions and install coastal radars and use frigates, corvettes and OPVs for patrol, or rely more entirely on the navy and beef it up with mini-carriers of the late "sea control ship" concept... though it would be more reasonable to have big OPVs with a couple of helos on each.

cheers

They don't need a fleet of SCS, a single carrier will do just fine. They can put it where it is needed most i.e. out in the ocean expanse, direction africa, not along the coast.

Nothing wrong with the carrier they currently have, considering what planes they have to put on it. Once it gets too old, they can always strike a deal with India for the production of a new light carrier. No pressing need to get involved with suppliers from Europe, US or Russia.

 

[Big-E]

They don't need a fleet of SCS, a single carrier will do just fine. They can put it where it is needed most i.e. out in the ocean expanse, direction africa, not along the coast.

Nothing wrong with the carrier they currently have, considering what planes they have to put on it. Once it gets too old, they can always strike a deal with India for the production of a new light carrier. No pressing need to get involved with suppliers from Europe, US or Russia.

What carrier do they currently have? The Veintecinco De Mayo was scrapped 7 years ago. Russia can't build carriers anymore since they lost Ukraine. India doesn't have enough steel to build Argentina a carrier, they barely have enough for their own plans.