Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

I think what people saw is not entirely about the money. It is more about the policy. During the Suharto era, all the Panglima TNI came from the army, while since the reformation era it has been rotated among the three branches of the military. It gave the impression that the navy and air force main task was to support the army. The main role was left mainly to the army. During the last days of Sukarno, the army, navy, and air force were separated.

Well, that's have to be differed between what Soeharto put in the helm, and what translate in to the Defense Policy. The Army being used by Soeharto to 'cement' his grip on power. Thus he select the Army guys for 'more' political positions. Indonesian Army mostly consists of Infantry, which is 'cheap' to build. Soeharto need a lot of 'cheap' Infantry so he can spread them across the Archipelago. It's not entirely related to Defense doctrine, but more to 'political' doctrine.

However in term of 'pure' defense policy/doctrine, The Air Force and the Navy basically independent from the Army to developed their defense agenda on Air and Maritime doctrine.

Human Development Index of Indonesian is one of the lowest in ASEAN. What kind of politician do you expect they will elect?

Well Soeharto manage to fill the Parliament with better quality (but also docile) politicians. Just wandering if Indonesia really ready for Democracy

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia will cooperate with China to join production of Chinese SSM C-705 : Indonesia-China mantapkan alih teknologi peluru kendali - AntaraNews.com

With Google translate:

Jakarta (ANTARA News) - Indonesia and China agreed to strengthen the process of technology transfer with the production of a series of C-705 missiles.

Defense Ministry spokesman Brigadier General Hartind Asrin in Jakarta said Monday that the process of technology transfer into the main requirement in any major appliance purchase of foreign weapons systems, including missiles from China.

"In addition, we also explore cooperation with the missile production as a national product," said Brig Hartind Asrin added.

Circuit the process of technology transfer, among others, marked by the visit of Defence Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro to the China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corporation (CPMEIC) who becomes the holder of the work of the project C-705 missiles to be purchased along with the Navy technology transfer process.

Other sources in here indicated that Chinese C-705 will be standard SSM for Missiles FPB (or KCR in Indonesian Acronym) while Russian Yakhont will be standard SSM in Frigates. They (TNI-AL) already evaluated C-802 for frigates, but seems is not happy with the performance.

 

[STURM]

Iwhile Russian Yakhont will be standard SSM in Frigates.

Yes but how many frigates, apart from the Ahmad Yani class, that are in service are large enough to take Yakhonts? And even then, only 4 can be installed.

Unlike the Exocet and Harpoon, the Yakhont reaches some height before heading to it's target.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKGg1faRuxU&feature=related"]Yakhont Missile Tested by Indonesian Navy TNI-AL.flv - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[Ananda]

Yes but how many frigates, apart from the Ahmad Yani class, that are in service are large enough to take Yakhonts? And even then, only 4 can be installed.

Unlike the Exocet and Harpoon, the Yakhont reaches some height before heading to it's target.

Yakhont Missile Tested by Indonesian Navy TNI-AL.flv - YouTube

The only 'true' Frigates right now in TNI-AL is Ahmad Yani/Van Speijk/Leander class. The other (Fatahillah, Dipenogoro/Sigma, Patimura/Parchim) even though some called them 'light frigates' but more incline as 'large corvette'. So only those 6 Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani that can be equipped with Yakhont.

Your arguments seems has been considered by TNI-AL, that's why I believe they also try out Exocet MM 40 and Chinese C-802 besides Yakhont as replacement for Van Speijk Harpoon. All other SSM in TNI-AL inventory is Exocet MM-38 which seems according to this will be replaced by C-705.

In paper, Exocet MM-40 and C-802 more appropriate in performance for Harpoon replacement. TNI-AL did not happy with C-802 performance, but seems quite happy with Exocet MM-40. Well they choose to put it on Dipenogoro/Sigma Corvettes. Why they don't choose it for Van Speijk, I can only 'speculate' that they want something with more range than Exocet MM-40.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The only 'true' Frigates right now in TNI-AL is Ahmad Yani/Van Speijk/Leander class. The other (Fatahillah, Dipenogoro/Sigma, Patimura/Parchim) even though some called them 'light frigates' but more incline as 'large corvette'. So only those 6 Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani that can be equipped with Yakhont.

Your arguments seems has been considered by TNI-AL, that's why I believe they also try out Exocet MM 40 and Chinese C-802 besides Yakhont as replacement for Van Speijk Harpoon. All other SSM in TNI-AL inventory is Exocet MM-38 which seems according to this will be replaced by C-705.

In paper, Exocet MM-40 and C-802 more appropriate in performance for Harpoon replacement. TNI-AL did not happy with C-802 performance, but seems quite happy with Exocet MM-40. Well they choose to put it on Dipenogoro/Sigma Corvettes. Why they don't choose it for Van Speijk, I can only 'speculate' that they want something with more range than Exocet MM-40.

Dont forget the KRI Ki Hajar Dewantara (364), with 96,7 m and 1850 ton, the second largest frigate after the Ahmad Yani class.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

Ananda, or anybody who knows,

Is C-705 the latest type of the C-70x anti ship missiles? Which is smaller than the C-80x anti ship missiles?

TNI AL source said that C-705 has better accuracy and general performance than C-802. Could the main cause of this problem is that C-705 has new system compared to C-802 which is more comparable to C-702 maybe?

From wikipedia I read that C-803 has range up to 350 km and C-805 up to more than 500 km. Is this data correct, since it makes the missiles have more range than Yakhont? Russia and NATO members are signatory of MTCR which prevent the transfer of missile with payload larger than 500 kg with range at least 300 km.

Both China and Indonesia are not signatory of MTCR. It is interesting to know if this will allow the ToT for longer range missiles in the future, including domestically produced Yakhont replacement.

By the way, South Korea also a signatory country, thus Indonesia cannot expect long range missile ToT from them, unlike LPD, submarine or aircraft.

 

[Ananda]

Is C-705 the latest type of the C-70x anti ship missiles? Which is smaller than the C-80x anti ship missiles?

From the Chinese sites, yes C-7xx series were smaller than C-8xx series. Whether TNI-AL will want to use C-803 or newer C-8xx series will have to be seen. On thing for sure compared to Yakhont, those newer C-8xx series is still under development and not proven yet. Yakhont test results with TNI-AL was done well.

Both China and Indonesia are not signatory of MTCR. It is interesting to know if this will allow the ToT for longer range missiles in the future, including domestically produced Yakhont replacement.

Can't comment much on that. However according to few interviews on local media conducted by Indonesian Space Agency (Lapan), they do have some interactions with the Chinese before developing their Satellite Launchers vehicle program. How much (if any) interactions it is, seems no official acknowledgement on that.

Dont forget the KRI Ki Hajar Dewantara (364), with 96,7 m and 1850 ton, the second largest frigate after the Ahmad Yani class.

I do seems miss that Frigate in calculation. well they do call that Yugo build ones as 'Training Frigate' and not full combatant Frigates (even though that Frigate used to be equipped with Exocet MM-38).

 

[Ananda]

Second TNI-AL Submarine Bidding

From Turkish Hurriyet :BUSINESS - Turkey loses bid for Indonesia submarines

Indonesia has informed a German-Turkish partnership that South Korea has won Jakarta’s competition for U209 submarines and that the duo should instead focus on the sale of more-developed U214 subs to the Southeast Asian giant, a senior Turkish official has said.

The message was conveyed during the visit of Adm. Agus Suhartono, the chief of staff of Indonesia’s military forces, to Turkey last week, the Turkish official said this weekend.

According to this Turkish Newspaper, seems TNI-AL will conduct another bidding for second submarine program. The Turks indicated TNI-AL wants U-214 in the table for the second stage of Indonesian submarine program.

No indication so far from Indonesian Min-Def for second submarine competitions, however they do indicate/hinted they want 8 submarine as minimal fleet for Indonesian Navy by 2020. If this true, with only 5 submarine (2 existing/upgraded 209, and 3 new build 209 with Daewoo), then if second bidding really happen, perhaps we're looking for another 3 submarine tender.

 

[STURM]

Why they don't choose it for Van Speijk, I can only 'speculate' that they want something with more range than Exocet MM-40.

Not sure how true this is, but according to a report I read, only 4 Yakhonts have been bought so far and one was fired. Honestly, I can't see the rationale in getting Yakhont, even given its supersonic speed and big warhead. I know we've discussed this before but to really exploit it's long range, which might also be difficult due to congested waters and geography, OTHT will be needed and how many OTHT assets are there?

 

[Ananda]

Not sure how true this is, but according to a report I read, only 4 Yakhonts have been bought so far and one was fired. Honestly, I can't see the rationale in getting Yakhont, even given its supersonic speed and big warhead. I know we've discussed this before but to really exploit it's long range, which might also be difficult due to congested waters and geography, OTHT will be needed and how many OTHT assets are there?

Well, the Pro's & Con's between Soviet style Supersonic long range SSM vs Western preference of Subsonic mid-range SSM has been discussed for some time, and I believe will not end until some parties uses them on large scale conflict. For TNI-AL sides on Yakhont, the last test they doing it seems give them satisfactory result. I've found a post in local forum that claimed has an aerial video of TNI-AL Yakhont hit an old ex USN LST. Seems indicate that TNI-AL use helicopter as mid range guidance for the missiles.

However since no official info on what OTHT asset that TNI-AL use for mid range guidance, I still can't comment much on the OTHT. There's an interview from Naval Chief that indicated the Mid range guidance in Yakhont test conducted by Type 209 subs. Well, If looking on some equipment being put on refurbished Type 209 in South Korea, it's seems that TNI-AL Type 209 already have digital data transfer capabilities. If this's true then TNI-AL and the Russian contractors managed to match the Yakhont data receivers with Western style data transmitting that TNI-AL subs or Helicopter have.

TNI-AL NBell-412 seems in my opinion is the only helicopter in TNI-AL inventory that have capabilities to be uses as OTHT. However the amount of TNI-AL's Bell 412 are not enough to equipped all Ahmad Yani/Van Speijk Frigates. There's talk about TNI-AL looking for Kaman Seasprite in order to replaced old Wasp in Van Speijk. I believe if this's true Seasprite can be uses as OTHT.

Yes officially so far TNI-AL only equipped 1 of Van Speijk frigates with Yakhont. From local forum I found another Frigate (Ahmad Yani if not mistaken) being uses for C-802 trial. However if what the Deputy Naval Chief says is true, then the C-802 trial is not as successful as Yakhont did. In other word, if Yakhont being chosen then the rest 5 Frigates will be equipped in near future.

 

[STURM]

There's an interview from Naval Chief that indicated the Mid range guidance in Yakhont test conducted by Type 209 subs. Well, If looking on some equipment being put on refurbished Type 209 in South Korea, it's seems that TNI-AL Type 209 already have digital data transfer capabilities. If this's true then TNI-AL and the Russian contractors managed to match the Yakhont data receivers with Western style data transmitting that TNI-AL subs or Helicopter have.

That's interesting, I've never heard of subs being used to provide mid course guidance updates for a ship launched missile. I assume the sub would have to be surfaced for the data link to work and target data would be from the subs sonar [assuming that's even technically possible]. More practical to just fit existing aircraft with a data link. Are the Exocet equipped Pumas operated by the TNI-AU or the TNI-AL - if operated by the TNI-AU, these could be fitted with a data link. I wonder if any company has given any thought to fitting a UAV with data links for OTHT?

Don't get me wrong, I think supersonic missiles are the way to go as they present the targets with a lot of problems in dealing with them. Personally, if the choice was in having 8 Exocets/Harpoons/Otomats or just 4 Yakhonts/Shupwrecks, I would go for quantity.

 

[Ananda]

That's interesting, I've never heard of subs being used to provide mid course guidance updates for a ship launched missile. I assume the sub would have to be surfaced for the data link to work and target data would be from the subs sonar. More practical to just fit existing aircraft with a data link. Are the Exocet equipped Pumas operated by the TNI-AU or the TNI-AL - if operated by the TNI-AU, these could be fitted with a data link. I wonder if any company has given any thought to fitting a UAV with data links for OTHT?

Personally, I found it rather difficult to believe that the Subs (if this true Type 209 being used as mid course guidance) talked directly with the (Yakhont) missiles. I more inclined to believe that the subs send the data to the mother Frigates, and the Frigates made the correction to the missiles. I do agree the more easier mid guidance assets is the helicopters. Like I said, since no official info that reliable stated on what actually OTHT assets being used, I can't comment much on that.

The Exocet equipped Super Puma's as far as I know is not operational, since it's only one prototype by DI. The project discontinue in the mid 90's due two reasons; First the economic crisis in the 90's, second due to East Timor problem. Economic crisis in the 90's delayed the program, but even after mid 2000 decade the program also discontinue since TNI-AL largest frigates (Van Speijk) can't handle helicopter the size of Super Puma. This is related to East Timor problem, since the project being tried for expectations that TNI-AL in the mid 90's will get larger Frigates (circulated at that time was ex Dutch Tromp). East Timor problem negated that possibilities.

 

[Ananda]

TNI-AL ask Parliament permission to buy Nahkoda Ragam Class

Indonesian Navy ask Parliament permission to buy Nahkoda Ragam class (from Indonesian Parliament sites):TNI AL Ingin Beli Kapal Perang yang Batal Dipesan Brunei | News | Jurnal Parlemen

The sites in Indonesian, so I just put the summary:

Indonesian Navy ask Parliament support for procurement warships that was ordered but cancelled by Brunai. The Navy informed the Parliament based on the information from Brunai Mindef that they cancelled the Nahkoda Ragam class because they can't provide enough manning, although they also informed some political considerations from Brunai when cancelling the warships.

In short the Navy try to convince the Parliament that the Warships still in excellent conditions and the Brunai cancelation has nothing to do with technical specification or quality of the warships. The warships being offered to Indonesia with the Price Tag of around 298 million Euro or USD 380 million.

One thing for sure, 2 class of Frigates have been deleted from TNI-AL inventory; 4 ex USN Claud Jones and 3 ex RN Tribal. The 4 Claud Jones have been replaces by 4 Sigma, while 3 Tribal have not been replaced. Thus if the deal goes through, I suspect the 3 ex Nahkoda Ragam class will filled the capacity void left by Tribals.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesian Navy ask Parliament permission to buy Nahkoda Ragam class (from Indonesian Parliament sites):TNI AL Ingin Beli Kapal Perang yang Batal Dipesan Brunei | News | Jurnal Parlemen

The sites in Indonesian, so I just put the summary:

Indonesian Navy ask Parliament support for procurement warships that was ordered but cancelled by Brunai. The Navy informed the Parliament based on the information from Brunai Mindef that they cancelled the Nahkoda Ragam class because they can't provide enough manning, although they also informed some political considerations from Brunai when cancelling the warships.

In short the Navy try to convince the Parliament that the Warships still in excellent conditions and the Brunai cancelation has nothing to do with technical specification or quality of the warships. The warships being offered to Indonesia with the Price Tag of around 298 million Euro or USD 380 million.

One thing for sure, 2 class of Frigates have been deleted from TNI-AL inventory; 4 ex USN Claud Jones and 3 ex RN Tribal. The 4 Claud Jones have been replaces by 4 Sigma, while 3 Tribal have not been replaced. Thus if the deal goes through, I suspect the 3 ex Nahkoda Ragam class will filled the capacity void left by Tribals.

Thanks for the news.
The Nakhoda Ragam Class is maybe a good choice, however a lot of radarsystems like the BAE Systems Insyte AWS-9 3D E- and F-band air and surface radar and the BAE Insyte 1802SW I/J-band radar trackers, are not from Hollandse Signaal (Thales Nederland).

Menurut Soeparno, kapal perang ini canggih karena sudah dilengkapi dengan misil anti kapal selam.

Well ..The Nahkoda Ragam class do not have ASROCS or Anti Sub missiles like RPK-2 (SS-N-15).
But ofcourse E 296.000.000 for three high-tech corvettes is a good price.
At least we have then a more capable Air Defence system in our fleet, better than those Mistral manpads....

 

[STURM]

In short the Navy try to convince the Parliament that the Warships still in excellent conditions and the Brunai cancelation has nothing to do with technical specification or quality of the warships. The warships being offered to Indonesia with the Price Tag of around 298 million Euro or USD 380 million.

The reason cited by Brunei for refusing the 3 corvettes were that they were not up to spec. Many however understood that the real reason was that the RBN simply did not have the manpower to crew these ships and the Muara base lacked certain facilities or infrastructure to support these ships. About 2 years ago, Lurssen was given the responsibility of disposing these ships. At one one point, Pakistan expressed an interest. They are based on the Frigate 2000 designed which so far had only been sold to the RMN - KD Lekiu and KD Jebat. The Nakhoda Ragams were reprtedly built to a higher built spec than the Lekiu class, using a higher grade steel.

These would make a welcome addition to the TNI-AL but would also mean that the TNI-AL would have to support another missile, CMS, radar, engines, ESM, etc. They are also not fitted with a hangar and at a defence show a few years ago, I was told by someone at the BAE Systems stand that they are fitted with an active jammer. If I'm not mistaken no ship in the TNI-AL has an active jammer.

 

[Ananda]

T
These would make a welcome addition to the TNI-AL but would also mean that the TNI-AL would have to support another missile, CMS, radar, engines, ESM, etc. They are also not fitted with a hangar and at a defence show a few years ago, I was told by someone at the BAE Systems stand that they are fitted with an active jammer. If I'm not mistaken no ship in the TNI-AL has an active jammer.

I could not answered that. The 4 Sigma supposedly equipped with 'Nato' standard electronics. However the overall detail of the electronics and sensors seems still being kept hidden. Afterall this 'active' jammer on Nahkoda RAgam if I'm not mistaken also not included on the official list.

 

[STURM]

I could not answered that. The 4 Sigma supposedly equipped with 'Nato' standard electronics. However the overall detail of the electronics and sensors seems still being kept hidden. Afterall this 'active' jammer on Nahkoda RAgam if I'm not mistaken also not included on the official list.

I don't have a detailed list of what the TNI-ALs Sigmas are fitted with but the engines, CMS, radar, fire director, etc, on the Sigmas and Nakhoda Radams are different. Being British built, the Nakhoda Ragams have a lot of ''Made In Britain'' stuff. I suspect that the Nakhoda Ragams, like the Lekiu class, has Link Y.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/lekiu/

 

[eldef]

Horizon

guys,
Indonesian navy is planning to procure some Orizzonte Class Frigate from Italy.
Is it right ? I think it would be great for the Navy, since the Van speijk Class is already ageing

 

[Ananda]

guys,
Indonesian navy is planning to procure some Orizzonte Class Frigate from Italy.
Is it right ? I think it would be great for the Navy, since the Van speijk Class is already ageing

They (Mindef) now only talking getting ex Brunai orders Nahkoda Ragam class corvetes from BAE. Orrizonte is only some wishfull dream from Local fanboys. Some local fanboys including some Blog owners think that since Italy in economic trouble they will let their 2 brand new Orrizonte for sale. Never heard on that from Italian sources, thus just like I say some wishfull wild dream from local Fanboys.

Mindef is talking with Italian but it's for PKR (Light Frigates/Corvetes) projects. The design for PKR won by Damen beating Fincantieri (Damen based on Sigma 105 M, while Fincantieri based on enlarged 104 M Commandante design). However seems there's problem when dealing with Damen, thus Mindef approaching Fincantieri again.

Soma other talked in local forum also put getting Maestralle Frigates (that will be replaced by FREEM in Italian service). In my oppinion getting Maestralle is more realistics for Van Speijk replacement. However TNI-AL already say, that they're not in hurry on getting new Frigates, but concentrating more on enlarging their Fast Patrol Boats and Corvetes fleets. It's reasonable since operating costs of 1 Frigates will be equivalent for operating costs of 2 Corvetes or 4 Missiles FPB. And TNI-AL now need more larger number of vessels then larger vessels.

 

[not_adriano]

hello, i would like to join discussion here

The only 'true' Frigates right now in TNI-AL is Ahmad Yani/Van Speijk/Leander class. The other (Fatahillah, Dipenogoro/Sigma, Patimura/Parchim) even though some called them 'light frigates' but more incline as 'large corvette'. So only those 6 Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani that can be equipped with Yakhont.

Your arguments seems has been considered by TNI-AL, that's why I believe they also try out Exocet MM 40 and Chinese C-802 besides Yakhont as replacement for Van Speijk Harpoon. All other SSM in TNI-AL inventory is Exocet MM-38 which seems according to this will be replaced by C-705.

In paper, Exocet MM-40 and C-802 more appropriate in performance for Harpoon replacement. TNI-AL did not happy with C-802 performance, but seems quite happy with Exocet MM-40. Well they choose to put it on Dipenogoro/Sigma Corvettes. Why they don't choose it for Van Speijk, I can only 'speculate' that they want something with more range than Exocet MM-40.

no, currently more Van Speijk class ship equipped with C-802, TNI AL tested C-802 3 times and ended with satisfactory result if compared with it's price. 1 exocet cost will get you 3 C-802. That's why TNI AL use Exocet for SIGMA due to it's proven quality and C-802 on the rest of the ship

i have a better approaches toward missile evaluation programme, IMO you can't judge a missile performance just by testing it once. Yakhont use dual channel GPS and GLONASS, due to GLONASS lack of resolution in southern hemisphere, in Indonesia, Yakhont had to rely on GPS guidancec

However since no official info on what OTHT asset that TNI-AL use for mid range guidance, I still can't comment much on the OTHT. There's an interview from Naval Chief that indicated the Mid range guidance in Yakhont test conducted by Type 209 subs. Well, If looking on some equipment being put on refurbished Type 209 in South Korea, it's seems that TNI-AL Type 209 already have digital data transfer capabilities. If this's true then TNI-AL and the Russian contractors managed to match the Yakhont data receivers with Western style data transmitting that TNI-AL subs or Helicopter have.

TNI-AL NBell-412 seems in my opinion is the only helicopter in TNI-AL inventory that have capabilities to be uses as OTHT. However the amount of TNI-AL's Bell 412 are not enough to equipped all Ahmad Yani/Van Speijk Frigates. There's talk about TNI-AL looking for Kaman Seasprite in order to replaced old Wasp in Van Speijk. I believe if this's true Seasprite can be uses as OTHT.

Yes officially so far TNI-AL only equipped 1 of Van Speijk frigates with Yakhont. From local forum I found another Frigate (Ahmad Yani if not mistaken) being uses for C-802 trial. However if what the Deputy Naval Chief says is true, then the C-802 trial is not as successful as Yakhont did. In other word, if Yakhont being chosen then the rest 5 Frigates will be equipped in near future.

That's interesting, I've never heard of subs being used to provide mid course guidance updates for a ship launched missile. I assume the sub would have to be surfaced for the data link to work and target data would be from the subs sonar [assuming that's even technically possible]. More practical to just fit existing aircraft with a data link. Are the Exocet equipped Pumas operated by the TNI-AU or the TNI-AL - if operated by the TNI-AU, these could be fitted with a data link. I wonder if any company has given any thought to fitting a UAV with data links for OTHT?

Don't get me wrong, I think supersonic missiles are the way to go as they present the targets with a lot of problems in dealing with them. Personally, if the choice was in having 8 Exocets/Harpoons/Otomats or just 4 Yakhonts/Shupwrecks, I would go for quantity.

no, currently TNI AL has no OTHT asset, in the past we buy 3 Ocean Master radar and wants to equip it in our NBO-105, but the performance of the helo degraded significantly so we cancelled the programme. FYI currently only NBO-105 that fits all of our combatant helo deck, NBell-412 it too long for our SIGMA helipad, our OTHT asset in the future is CN-235 ASW which have ASW and ASuw capability thus equipped with LINK-Y Mk2 datalink that could made the aircraft communicate efficiently with our SIGMA class that already equipped with LINK-Y Mk2. This will increase Exocet effectiveness greatly and make sure it can hit target on it's maximum range
and also on our planned super seasprite helo

i think i had to clarify, on our armada jaya exercise, the sub give target coordinate to KRI OWA (yakhont launch platform) and the ship input numeric variables (target coordinates/Target bearing from launch ship). The U-209 also act as target surveyor for BDA (Battle damage assesment)

we're looking forward for a NCW integrated fleet. I except we could have some test with Exocet+OTHT as soon as 2014

cheers