Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[not_adriano]

These would make a welcome addition to the TNI-AL but would also mean that the TNI-AL would have to support another missile, CMS, radar, engines, ESM, etc. They are also not fitted with a hangar and at a defence show a few years ago, I was told by someone at the BAE Systems stand that they are fitted with an active jammer. If I'm not mistaken no ship in the TNI-AL has an active jammer.

err, what do you mean by active jammer? our SIGMA uses Racal Scorpion active jammer

I could not answered that. The 4 Sigma supposedly equipped with 'Nato' standard electronics. However the overall detail of the electronics and sensors seems still being kept hidden. Afterall this 'active' jammer on Nahkoda RAgam if I'm not mistaken also not included on the official list.

SIGMA are equipped by european system, but not with NATO datalink system, LINK-Y Mk2 is a datalink system made spesifically for non NATO countries

I don't have a detailed list of what the TNI-ALs Sigmas are fitted with but the engines, CMS, radar, fire director, etc, on the Sigmas and Nakhoda Radams are different. Being British built, the Nakhoda Ragams have a lot of ''Made In Britain'' stuff. I suspect that the Nakhoda Ragams, like the Lekiu class, has Link Y.

yes, it has LINK-Y, because fleet integration is one of our current main concern, we need to inspect the ship, sea trial, and test the overall system to determine what needs to be changed or added to made the ship can communicate with others via datalink

for the system, even it uses NAUTIS Combat management system and BAe Insyte radar, it also has Thales SCOUT for LPI surface search (TNI AL has used Scout on some of our ship) and Thales Underwater System Sonar. So it's shared some commonality with our current fleet

cheers

 

[STURM]

no, currently TNI AL has no OTHT asset, in the past we buy 3 Ocean Master radar and wants to equip it in our NBO-105, but the performance of the helo degraded significantly so we cancelled the programme.

If they haven't already, I see no reason why the 737s can't be fitted with a data link to perform OTHT.

i think i had to clarify, on our armada jaya exercise, the sub give target coordinate to KRI OWA (yakhont launch platform) and the ship input numeric variables (target coordinates/Target bearing from launch ship). The U-209 also act as target surveyor for BDA (Battle damage assesment)

Interesting information. Like I said earlier to Ananda, I'm not sure if subs have been used for this purpose before.

err, what do you mean by active jammer? our SIGMA uses Racal Scorpion active jammer

There you go. So I was mistaken after all .

A few questions if you don't mind.

Do you know if they are any plans to upgrade the Fatahillah class?

Apart from receiving new RENK gearbox's what other improvements have been done to the Parchim class?

What is your personal opinion about the Yakhonts from an operational perspective? Do you think it was worth the effort to integrate just 4 missiles or should the Ahmad Yani class have instead received 8 medium range missiles?

 

[not_adriano]

If they haven't already, I see no reason why the 737s can't be fitted with a data link to perform OTHT.

USA stuff and also SLAMMR is not a modular radar&system you can easily put LINK-Y Mk2 into it, it is easier to put a satellite uplink to our 737s than to put a terrestrial datalink

A few questions if you don't mind.

Do you know if they are any plans to upgrade the Fatahillah class?

Apart from receiving new RENK gearbox's what other improvements have been done to the Parchim class?

What is your personal opinion about the Yakhonts from an operational perspective? Do you think it was worth the effort to integrate just 4 missiles or should the Ahmad Yani class have instead received 8 medium range missiles?

Parchim? we made some modification to make that ship more suitable for open sea operation and to increase it's range and endurance. Because east germany sea is completely different with our sea

Fatahillah class is reaching it's midlife years, off course there is a planned MLM (midlife modernization)

Yakhont in Ahmad Yani class will be used as a deterrence weapon, Yakhont's range and radar capability will be suit for anti access weapon. Especially when enemy fleet pass a choke point where the area of target will be covered by yakhont's radar during terminal phase, yakhont will choose the biggest target (in invading force it will be CV, LHD, LHA, LPD, or destroyer)

so we can use BOL (bearing only launch) or GPS coordinate and let the Yakhont's radar choose it's own prey:splat

cheers

 

[Ananda]

i have a better approaches toward missile evaluation programme, IMO you can't judge a missile performance just by testing it once. Yakhont use dual channel GPS and GLONASS, due to GLONASS lack of resolution in southern hemisphere, in Indonesia, Yakhont had to rely on GPS guidancec

no, currently TNI AL has no OTHT asset, in the past we buy 3 Ocean Master radar and wants to equip it in our NBO-105, but the performance of the helo degraded significantly so we cancelled the programme. FYI currently only NBO-105 that fits all of our combatant helo deck, NBell-412 it too long for our SIGMA helipad, our OTHT asset in the future is CN-235 ASW which have ASW and ASuw capability thus equipped with LINK-Y Mk2 datalink that could made the aircraft communicate efficiently with our SIGMA class that already equipped with LINK-Y Mk2. This will increase Exocet effectiveness greatly and make sure it can hit target on it's maximum range
and also on our planned super seasprite helo

i think i had to clarify, on our armada jaya exercise, the sub give target coordinate to KRI OWA (yakhont launch platform) and the ship input numeric variables (target coordinates/Target bearing from launch ship). The U-209 also act as target surveyor for BDA (Battle damage assesment)

we're looking forward for a NCW integrated fleet. I except we could have some test with Exocet+OTHT as soon as 2014

I tend to believe that if those Super Seasprite being procured, those will be the OTHT assets especially from the Van Speijk's/A.Yani frigates. Kaman Seasprites or Super Lynx probably the only two kind of modern Anti Sub/Anti Surface Helo that still can fit properly with Van Speijk's Helicopter facility. Unless they want to equiped Bell 412 to that kind of job (which the Italian done).

Thanks for the clarification with the Yakhonts test. It's more sense for those Sub talking with the mother Frigates rather than data-linkage with Yakhont. You seems to know more on the TNI-AL missiles tests, it's true then that C-802 did not perform well with TNI-AL test ? SIPRI latest data show Indonesia put contact for 50 Yakhont, and 200 C-705 and 40 Exocet MM-40 but no more C-802 if I'm not mistaken. Show in my oppinion that C-802 performance did not meet TNI-AL expectations.

 

[not_adriano]

I tend to believe that if those Super Seasprite being procured, those will be the OTHT assets especially from the Van Speijk's/A.Yani frigates. Kaman Seasprites or Super Lynx probably the only two kind of modern Anti Sub/Anti Surface Helo that still can fit properly with Van Speijk's Helicopter facility. Unless they want to equiped Bell 412 to that kind of job (which the Italian done).

Italy use Bell212 to guide it's OTOMAT via TG-2 datalink, it has a lot of cons, especially regarding helo slow speed, helo poor radar performance, and the missile must fly below the helo.

Nbell as i stated before, is too long in dimension for SIGMA class and Nala. So option downed to Sea Sprite and Panther, me personally choose panther but if seasprite comes with integration/compatible datalink system and a cheap price, i 'll put my choice on it

Thanks for the clarification with the Yakhonts test. It's more sense for those Sub talking with the mother Frigates rather than data-linkage with Yakhont. You seems to know more on the TNI-AL missiles tests, it's true then that C-802 did not perform well with TNI-AL test ? SIPRI latest data show Indonesia put contact for 50 Yakhont, and 200 C-705 and 40 Exocet MM-40 but no more C-802 if I'm not mistaken. Show in my oppinion that C-802 performance did not meet TNI-AL expectations.

SIPRI sometimes put more number, less number, unexecuted contract (contract without Letter of credit) , and sometimes not putting some valid contract on their data. C-802 is one sample of less number, we currently installed it on FPB NAV-V and some of Van Speijk class. C-802 latest test is hit and explode
looks like the yakhont will be utilized as anti access weapon while exocet and C-802 will be used as front line SSM
and for smaller ship we'll use C-705 that has quite similar range with exocet and 802 thanks to additional booster but with smaller warhead. We have plan to manufacture C-705 locally

IMO, know how to built C-705 is more advantageous than C-802, despite of it smaller warhead, C-705 already used a digital system (quite up to date), more COTS component and could be developed into a longer range and bigger missile

cheers

 

[STURM]

Yakhont in Ahmad Yani class will be used as a deterrence weapon, Yakhont's range and radar capability will be suit for anti access weapon. Especially when enemy fleet pass a choke point where the area of target will be covered by yakhont's radar during terminal phase, yakhont will choose the biggest target (in invading force it will be CV, LHD, LHA, LPD, or destroyer)

so we can use BOL (bearing only launch) or GPS coordinate and let the Yakhont's radar choose it's own prey:splat cheers

Yes, but I was interested in your opinion as to whether theTNI-AL would have been better off fitting 8 medium range missiles on the Ahmad Yani, rather than just 4 Yakhonts .In theory at least, a C-802 or a Harpoon will be able to perform the tasks you mentioned, even given the shorter range of both missiles. To me at least, and I'm no expert, using the long range Yakhont in places such as the confined Melaka Straits, might present its share of problems. Politics aside, apart from its bigger warhead and being supersonic, does Yakhont provide other advantages over missiles that the TNI-AL already operates?

 

[Ananda]

Nbell as i stated before, is too long in dimension for SIGMA class and Nala. So option downed to Sea Sprite and Panther, me personally choose panther but if seasprite comes with integration/compatible datalink system and a cheap price, i 'll put my choice on it

I don't think TNI-AL will use Sigma or Nala as based for any Anti Surface/ASW Helicopter assets. Even when they still have Wasp, those helicopter never been used by other ships except Van Speijk. Those are the job for proper size Frigates, which at this moment means Van Speijk. In such I put Bell 412 as alternatives to Seasprite or Lynx since those are the ASW/Anti Surface Helicopter that can 'properly' operated from Van Speijk. Other in the market I believe is too large for Van Speijks.

IMO, know how to built C-705 is more advantageous than C-802, despite of it smaller warhead, C-705 already used a digital system (quite up to date), more COTS component and could be developed into a longer range and bigger missile

I agree on C-705, but I still have doubt with C-802. I know they also trial C-802 on Van Speijk besides on FPB-57. Some brass in TNI-AL already mentioned to media, that Yakhont will be for Van Speijk, and C-705 for future Missiles FAC (KCR-40/KCR-60). This signal different opinion with TNI-AL on C-802. Personally I believe, if TNI-AL already chooses Yakhont, then it has no need for C-802 in Van Speijk. While all Missiles FAC including present one can use C-705 as replacement for Exocet MM-38. Exocet MM-40 sill be used by Sigma or PKR-105 (if the program still go on ) since Yakhont is too large for them.

 

[Ananda]

Found this on You Tube. The first Indonesian build maritime radar operating from Van Speijk Frigate and Parchim Corvete :
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Raw3ab3h8no&feature=relmfu"]Indonesian-Made Naval LPI Radar: INDERA MX-2AHD (4).mp4 - YouTube[/nomedia]
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zeous4mMk8M"]The First Indonesian-Made Radar: INDERA MX-2AHC (1).wmv - YouTube[/nomedia]
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugJpfp4VjIc"]The First Indonesian-Made Radar: INDERA MX-2AHC (PPI).mov - YouTube[/nomedia]


The radar called Indera MX-2AHC (in Parchim) and MX-2AHD (in Van Speijk). This's a maritime surface radar. Build by company called Radar and Communication System (RCS) - Indonesia. Is a local company located (if not mistaken) in Bandung.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Found this on You Tube. The first Indonesian build maritime radar operating from Van Speijk Frigate and Parchim Corvete :
Indonesian-Made Naval LPI Radar: INDERA MX-2AHD (4).mp4 - YouTube
The First Indonesian-Made Radar: INDERA MX-2AHC (1).wmv - YouTube
The First Indonesian-Made Radar: INDERA MX-2AHC (PPI).mov - YouTube


The radar called Indera MX-2AHC (in Parchim) and MX-2AHD (in Van Speijk). This's a maritime surface radar. Build by company called Radar and Communication System (RCS) - Indonesia. Is a local company located (if not mistaken) in Bandung.

Thanks for posting!
A good development.
It looks like 354 has become a sort of experimental frigate...

 

[peterAustralia]

New Trimarans for Indonesian Navy

I saw this recently, I assume it is legitimate

Photo: North Sea X3K trimaran - Indonesian Hot Rod

Cant say that I actually like the design, I think the outriggers are too short, might benefit if they were extended forward another 20ft

I guess they will give it a go and see if it works or not, I guess they should be fast for dealing with Pirates and such

 

[Gadjah Mada]

Found this on You Tube. The first Indonesian build maritime radar operating from Van Speijk Frigate and Parchim Corvete :
Indonesian-Made Naval LPI Radar: INDERA MX-2AHD (4).mp4 - YouTube
The First Indonesian-Made Radar: INDERA MX-2AHC (1).wmv - YouTube
The First Indonesian-Made Radar: INDERA MX-2AHC (PPI).mov - YouTube


The radar called Indera MX-2AHC (in Parchim) and MX-2AHD (in Van Speijk). This's a maritime surface radar. Build by company called Radar and Communication System (RCS) - Indonesia. Is a local company located (if not mistaken) in Bandung.

No, you`re mistaken. Indera radar was developed by Research Centre for Electronics and Communications of Indonesian Institute of Sciences (PPET-LIPI), a government Institution in cooperation with Delft Technological University in the Netherlands. The one built by RCS was Isra. Different product.
Thus, the navy have decided to adopt the Indera radar then.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

No, you`re mistaken. Indera radar was developed by Research Centre for Electronics and Communications of Indonesian Institute of Sciences (PPET-LIPI), a government Institution in cooperation with Delft Technological University in the Netherlands. The one built by RCS was Isra. Different product.
Thus, the navy have decided to adopt the Indera radar then.

Sorry Ananda I was wrong. I revise my opinion. I know the person in the Indera radar program personally, but it was a few years ago. I found that the same Institutions (PPET-LIPI, ITB and TU Delft) also developed ISRA. Probably PPET-LIPI and PT RCS have some connection like joint venture. May be ISRA -Coastal Surveillance Radar(ISRA LIPI Coastal Surveillance Radar for Regional Oversight Indonesian Sea) is different from INDERA based on their platform.
What I am sure of is that Indera is the earlier version than ISRA.

 

[Ananda]

Sorry Ananda I was wrong. I revise my opinion. I know the person in the Indera radar program personally, but it was a few years ago. I found that the same Institutions (PPET-LIPI, ITB and TU Delft) also developed ISRA. Probably PPET-LIPI and PT RCS have some connection like joint venture. May be ISRA -Coastal Surveillance Radar(ISRA LIPI Coastal Surveillance Radar for Regional Oversight Indonesian Sea) is different from INDERA based on their platform.
What I am sure of is that Indera is the earlier version than ISRA.

LEN, LIPI, and several other small private company (mostly from Bandung) so far seems continue their venture toward Radar development. Besides this Indera or Isra which basically Maritime surface radar, some of them also begin cooperation with establihed Radar manufacturer for possible Local ToT to compete with next TNI Radar program. Honestly I believe, whoever will be turn out as the lead constructors will still be in the competitions for some time

If I'm not mistaken those that venture in Radar, gain their Microwave Technology from civilian satelite and cellular communication which already more familiar by many Indonesian technicians.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesian Navy ask Parliament permission to buy Nahkoda Ragam class (from Indonesian Parliament sites):TNI AL Ingin Beli Kapal Perang yang Batal Dipesan Brunei | News | Jurnal Parlemen

Any news update about this?

 

[Ananda]

Any news update about this?

It will be difficult politically to granted procurement of Nahkoda Ragam because it's in similar size (even smaller) with PKR Project between PAL and Damen which will be based on Sigma 10514 design.

The things is, because it's already a finish product, then it will be impossible to demand ToT (Transfer of Technology) agreement from the manufacturers (BAE). Politically, ToT become a 'mantra' for both Parliament and Administrations on recent defense procurement especially the high value one.

Any defense equipment that considered within the capability of local manufacturers to build, has to be build locally or has to get some local work-share agreement. Nahkoda Ragam already being considered in that category.

The Navy argued, that they need the Nahkoda Ragam since they believe PKR (National Corvettes/Light Frigates) project will face delay. This's due to still disagreement between PAL and Damen on the overall project costs and more important the work-share agreement.

So have to be seen if the Navy can win their argument, while in the same time in my opinion it will also depend on the development on PKR projects. If the projects continue facing delay and hurdle, then it's possible the procurement can be granted.

In Local Forum, some fan boys argue also that procurement on Nahkoda Ragam 'also' being hold since Parliament think it will be more beneficial to procured the remaining three Type 22 Batch 3 Frigates. They argue it's a compromise, since the Frigates the size of Type 22 Batch 3 is still beyond capability of Local manufactures to build.
For me, so far I can't find solid evidence from UK sources, that Type 22 is being offered to Indonesia. I know they're trying to sell Type 22, but I believe it's for South American buyers (Chile or Brazil).

 

[swerve]

The Nakhoda Ragams have been laid up for several years, & would need a thorough overhaul, & perhaps some modernisation & modification, e.g. fitting of standard Indonesian Navy radios. That provides an opportunity for Indonesian workshare, although limited. The overhauls could be done in Indonesia.

 

[koxinga]

They would be better options compared to the Type 22 Batch 3 on the basis of hull age alone, although a proper refurbishment would be necessary.

Correct me if I am wrong, I thought all the Type 22 have been decommissioned? The last photos I saw of the Type 22's were those being stripped down.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Thanks for the explanation Ananda!

They would be better options compared to the Type 22 Batch 3 on the basis of hull age alone, although a proper refurbishment would be necessary.

Correct me if I am wrong, I thought all the Type 22 have been decommissioned? The last photos I saw of the Type 22's were those being stripped down.

Indeed, HMS Cornwall was the last Royal Navy Type 22 frigate, retired from service on 30 June 2011.

They are a class of well equipped frigates, but definitely too big and too expensive in maintenance and operations.
The Nakhoda Ragam class would be a better choice, as a stop gap for the Korvet Nasional Program.

 

[Ananda]

They would be better options compared to the Type 22 Batch 3 on the basis of hull age alone, although a proper refurbishment would be necessary.

Correct me if I am wrong, I thought all the Type 22 have been decommissioned? The last photos I saw of the Type 22's were those being stripped down.

Yes the Type 22 batch 3 have been decomm. However if not mistaken from the 4 Type 22 Batch 3 only 1 already being towed to scrapyard. If not mistaken 3 still in reserve for possible International bidder.

I agree also that for Indonesian need, Nahkoda Ragam is more appropriate. However the 'idea' from that come out from local forum (which they claim also some of the thinking in Parliament), If you want to buy a 'finish' defense product, make sure this is not a product that can be produce locally. The thinking is, the local shipyard already able to involved in producing a warship the size of Nahkoda Ragam, but they are still not able to involve with warship project the size of Type 22. Thus to avoid political wrangling, some of the Parliament members( if this's true, since I got this from local forum) suggest to get Type 22 Batch 3 rather than Nahkoda Ragam.

Anyway, no official mentioned from Min-Def in here or from UK, that any offered being made for remaining Type 22 Batch 3 to Indonesia. The certain offered so far ('officially') only Nahkoda Ragam.

 

[koxinga]

The thinking is, the local shipyard already able to involved in producing a warship the size of Nahkoda Ragam, but they are still not able to involve with warship project the size of Type 22. Thus to avoid political wrangling, some of the Parliament members( if this's true, since I got this from local forum) suggest to get Type 22 Batch 3 rather than Nahkoda Ragam.

You are not going to learn anything new from either the Nahkoda Ragam or the Type 22. IT is a stop gap and that should be the main focus. For the proposed price, it would be pretty good value for money.