There are 2 PAF C-130H aircrafts currently being refurbish, 1 is in Clark and the other 1 is in the US of which both are scheduled to return to service early this year...There is a plan to acquire 1 additional aircraft in 2012, only 1 active C-130 is in service as of posting time based on the news article from Flight Global...
Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter SABRE
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The Philippines' proposed preliminary plan to acquire12 F-16's fighter jets as EDA (like Indonesia) has not been approved by the US Government. This expressed desire by the Philippine adminstration to acquire military capabilities may be subject to futher technical and other hurdles, including the need to demonstrate affordability and sustainability before it can proceed further. It is of no surprise that there may be concerns on the US side with regards to EDA transfers to an organisation so much in need of further improvement.
[Mod edit: Post amended to reflect reality and Manila Boy is banned for 7 days for prior posting of false information. There is a difference between being over excited and being just plain wrong. Read up on the FMS process before attempting to post anything remotely related to FMS again. ]
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so what is true then?can you update us about f16s sir?it will take a long time sir before we can acquire?ARE WE RUSHING?
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the road runner
Active Member
Their is talk of the US "willing to help "Philippines obtain a squadron of F-16.
No deal is signed as of now,and we will have to wait and see if a deal is struck.
Im sure the US is willing to sell F-16 to Philippines,the problem may be financial on the Philippines side.(no money to purchase aircraft?)
US willing to help Phl get F-16 jets - The Philippine Star » News » Headlines
The Philippine Govt at this stage has only made a proposal that they are interested in acquiring twelve F-16 aircraft from the US. That is not a deal. It is simply a request for consideration. Big difference in a contractual sense.
I disagree that it is the money, the government recently alloted over P70 Billion ($1.6 Billion) for the procurement of military hardware specifically for the capability upgrade of the PAF and PN ...
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Even with $1.6 bil. available to spend on aircraft acquisitions and upgrades, that is not really much to re-establish a realistic fighter capability.
As an example, nearly 20 years ago Jordan leased 16 F-16's for USD$220 mil. All of which were either F-16A or -B models, with 13 of them having flown over 3,000 hours/75% of their expected service life.
While there might still be some low flight hour, early block F-16's in AMARC, I suspect those numbers are dropping. Further, if they are early block F-16's, they will likely need a fair bit of refurbishment and upgrading before they are suitable for service again. While this is a guess on my part, a cost of USD$30 mil. per aircraft after refurbishment and some upgrades does not sound out of the scope.
Then since this would be a deal with the US, there are the training, parts and support costs to consider as well, which can double the contract cost. In addition, there would be the costs for whatever sort of munitions the PAF opts to arm the F-16's with, which I would expect would be more capable and advanced than just what is currently in PAF service. Depending on the types and quantities desired, the munitions order itself could be in the hundreds of millions, more likely IMO though would be a figure of USD$100 mil. or less for munitions. Still, this does put the pricetag for a dozen F-16's likely at the USD$800+ mil.
There would still need to be consideration given to PAF infrastructure changes and upgrades to allow PAF bases to safely base F-16's.
Also, the PAF has other significant aircraft requirements as well, with airlift and surveillance aircraft fleets needing upgrading, augmentation, and/or replacement.
Given the competing needs the Philippines has for all sorts of military kit, spending half the monies on acquiring a token fighters force seems poorly considered.
-Cheers
I think that the Philippine Govt approach to the US must have been inspired by the recent deal struck between Indonesia and the US.
Indonesia to buy 24 refurbished US F-16 fighters | Reuters
The US$750 million deal between Indonesia and the United States will involve 24 upgraded F-16 Block 25 aircraft and 28 Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 or F100-PW-220E engines plus an additional six additional F-16s (four Block 25s and two Block 15s) for use as spares. The aircraft and engines deemed as "excess defence articles". The package includes Raytheon ALR-69 radar warning receivers, Terma ALQ-213 electronic warfare management systems, Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER, Northrop Grumman AN/AAQ-28 targeting systems as well as aircraft radios, data links, countermeasures, test equipment, spares and technical documents.
At a guess the aircraft are virtually free - and the platform acquisition is in the upgrade project. If the Philippines can get a pro-rata similar arrangement great, but the real cost will come in buying the weapons and keeping them flying as Todj outlined.
Indonesia to buy 24 refurbished US F-16 fighters | Reuters
The US$750 million deal between Indonesia and the United States will involve 24 upgraded F-16 Block 25 aircraft and 28 Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 or F100-PW-220E engines plus an additional six additional F-16s (four Block 25s and two Block 15s) for use as spares. The aircraft and engines deemed as "excess defence articles". The package includes Raytheon ALR-69 radar warning receivers, Terma ALQ-213 electronic warfare management systems, Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER, Northrop Grumman AN/AAQ-28 targeting systems as well as aircraft radios, data links, countermeasures, test equipment, spares and technical documents.
At a guess the aircraft are virtually free - and the platform acquisition is in the upgrade project. If the Philippines can get a pro-rata similar arrangement great, but the real cost will come in buying the weapons and keeping them flying as Todj outlined.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
It is. I have posted in this thread few weeks ago, that if Philippines plan to acquired F-16 ex USAF just like Indonesia did, and what they have to plan is how much money they willing to invest in upgrading the aircraft. In short Indonesia has to pay more than USD 30 mio for each aircraft anyway. Keep in mind, this also not included weapons, since it's conducted on separate contract.
Also if Philippines wants to get F-16, they also have to invest ground infrastructure on supporting F-16, including training for ground staff and other infrastructures needed. For Indonesia, this ground infrastructure 'also' conducted on separate deal, but the cost can be minimize since Indonesia already operated F-16 before.
Thus if the similar Indonesian deal that the Philippines can get from the US, then PAF has to prepared close to USD 380 mio for 12 Aircraft. This only for the Aircraft, but like I said Philippines also need to spend more for building supporting ground infrastructure for F-16 and weapons. If Philippines already prepared USD 1.6 bio, then the decision need to be taken if they willing to spend around a quarter (or more) of the budget only for F-16.
I suspect that's why Philippines min-def still try to find alternative (including went to Italy), since that USD 1.6 bio (the way I read it) is planned not only for Air Force alone. Yes, with USD 1.6 bio, Philippines can afford those 12 ex USAF F-16, but the questions is, will they (Philippines Min-def) willing to invest large chunk of procurement budget only for 1 sq of F-16. After all, with the similar amount of money (+/- 400 mio) they can get (for example) 2 sq of ex Italian AMX or 2 sq of ex Checks L-159.
Before the PAF acquire fighters, they need to budget for and maintain advanced jet trainers, which was the plan before their President made a public statement that led to the current situation. This resulted in the need for the US administration trying hard not to insult the sitting Philippine President, by saying no directly to his request for F-16s as excess defence articles (EDAs). Military skill sets (of operating fighters) once lost are not so easy to regain (when the Philippines decided to retire their F-5s in 2005). This demonstrated their prior government's lack of determinaton to fund and operate fighters. This is totally unlike the current situation in Indonesia, where external parties have taken notice of the determination of the Indonesian government to plan, to fund and to modernise the TNI with an emphasis on raising, training and sustaining.
The PAF is an organsation in desperate need for improvement and change, with personnel who love to travel but seldom come home with an order (with one or two exceptions and already posted in this thread). As previously posted in this thread:-
"Air force spokesman Miguel Ernesto Okol said the military fleet was in dire straits, backing up a 2010 government audit that found only 91 of the 393 aircraft were 'full mission capable'."
IMHO, they are not ready to take the leap to operate fighters (and hence not eligible for EDA transfers even if their current adminstration wants to pay for the upgrades) and they also have a demonstrated inability to manage and preserve the assets given to them in the past. The PAF needs to work on restarting their advanced pilot training before moving on. If you think I am harsh, wait till you hear what US sources reviewing Phlipppines military capabilities actually think (eg. see quote below from Sheldon W. Simon):-
"...Philippine defense capabilities have been a perennial joke within ASEAN. Lacking modern air and naval forces, the islands have been rife with smuggling, piracy, and fishery poaching..."
Beyond the fact that, in Sep 1991, the Philippine Senate did not ratify the US-Philippine Military Bases Agreement, which resulted in the removal of US bases from Philippine soil thereafter, a little recent context on the 'reliability' of the Philippines as an ally to the US is in order:
(i) on 20 May 2003, Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo (GMA) spoke of "unshakable resolve" in Philippines' support for the US in the White House on the 'War on Terror';
(ii) in return, the Bush administration provided Philippines with US$1 billion in benefits on the generalised system of preferences, increased quotas on textiles from the Philippines and a US$200 million special line of credit;
(iii) James Tyner (2005), writing on "Iraq, Terror and the Philippines will to War", described your country's approach at page 94, as "a member of the Coalition of Opportunists", who tried to capitalize on the Iraqi reconstruction efforts and angle for a piece of the action. Tyner quoted the then Philippines Foreign Secretary Alberto Romulo as saying: "We have the names of 1 million workers, from skilled mechanical engineers to crane operators, with passports and are ready to go... But, when it comes to skilled labour, we definitely have the value added..."; and
(iv) fourteen months later, that "unshakable resolve" collapsed. In April 2004 a Filipino was abducted and in July 2004, another Filipino truck driver was abducted. In GMA administration's attempt to get the 2nd Filipino abductee released, your country gave in to the demands of the abductors and ordered the withdrawal of the Philippines' 51-strong contingent from Iraq. Subsequently, their government also banned Filipinos from working in Iraq.
(ii) in return, the Bush administration provided Philippines with US$1 billion in benefits on the generalised system of preferences, increased quotas on textiles from the Philippines and a US$200 million special line of credit;
(iii) James Tyner (2005), writing on "Iraq, Terror and the Philippines will to War", described your country's approach at page 94, as "a member of the Coalition of Opportunists", who tried to capitalize on the Iraqi reconstruction efforts and angle for a piece of the action. Tyner quoted the then Philippines Foreign Secretary Alberto Romulo as saying: "We have the names of 1 million workers, from skilled mechanical engineers to crane operators, with passports and are ready to go... But, when it comes to skilled labour, we definitely have the value added..."; and
(iv) fourteen months later, that "unshakable resolve" collapsed. In April 2004 a Filipino was abducted and in July 2004, another Filipino truck driver was abducted. In GMA administration's attempt to get the 2nd Filipino abductee released, your country gave in to the demands of the abductors and ordered the withdrawal of the Philippines' 51-strong contingent from Iraq. Subsequently, their government also banned Filipinos from working in Iraq.
This incident clearly demonstrated that when the going gets tough, the Philippiines gets going. The country's commitment has been described by Tyner as opportunistic.
Both Ananda and I live in countries, who are members of ASEAN. As fellow members of ASEAN, we would hope that the US will help the the Philippines acquire additional military capabilities, as it would enhance regional security (and as far back as Dec 2009, I've clearly said that the PAF needs to plan ahead and get ready to operate F-16s). However in a mature discussion, we must also take note that any US adminstration donating F-16s as EDAs must also demonstrate good stewardship of American tax dollars and the PAF as an organisation must demonstrate the capability to operate and to sustain the military capability donated (via having sufficient allocations for maintenance and other operating expenses for their existing fleet). It takes about 24-36 months to refurbish a squadron of F-16s at Lockheed Martin's factory, but it takes more than twice the amount of time to train a squadron leader or a crew chief of a fighter squadron. And that's just basic competence for the air force.
Developing a combined arms doctrine in an air-sea battle for the PAF will take even longer. The MRF chosen needs to be matched to each country's threat matrix. To be honest, Benigno Aquino III is supportive of the need for modernisation but he seems out of his depth in defence matters. See below for the depressing defence budget numbers for the Philippines (showing years of neglect):-
Population......................................: 91.98 million
Literacy rate (and Life Expectancy)...: 94% (72 years) (World Bank data)
2009 GDP (nominal) .......................: US$161.19 billion (IMF data)
2004 GDP (nominal)........................: US$$86.7 billion (Nation Master data)
2000 GDP (nominal)........................: US$75.9 billion (Nation Master data)
No. of Troops (active/reserve)..........: 120,000 (active) and 171,000 (reserves)
*Defence Spending as a % of GDP .....: Between a low of 0.8% to a high of 1.0% (from 2000 to 2008)
*2009 Defence Spending...................: US$1,424 million (at constant 2008 prices)
*2004 Defence Spending...................: US$ 1,275 million (at constant 2008 prices)
*2000 Defence Spending...................: US$ 1,270 million (at constant 2008 prices)
*Data from SIPRI
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
The one that I bold is very important factor. Before US agree to transfer those ex USAF F-16, they send assessment team to Iswahyudi AB (home of Sq 3 the sole Indonesian F-16 sq), to asses the TNI-AU capability and will on maintaining 'existing' F-16 operations. What USAF teams like was the TNI-AU keep the regeneration capabilities for F-16 pilots and Ground Crews. This is important since it will determines whether TNI-AU have the pool of soft and hard skill needed to maintain more F-16.
They (the USAF assessment team) from what I heard, initially think the TNI-AU already loss the capability on sustain F-16 operations due to problem with embargo and lack of fund during 2000-2008 era. However even with limitations, TNI-AU manage to keep 4-6 F-16 on ready operational conditions, while maintaining the other 4 (of total 10 fleet) on maintenance. This rotations keep 50%-60% of fleet on sustain operational readiness in which although considered quite low by USAF standard, but not to bad for developing nations standard.
In short just like you say OPSSG, US policy with EDA and FMS besides US politics also put quite large emphasis of the organizational readiness of the receiving entity. During the hard time of 2000 - 2008, the TNI-AU most ready Fighters are the Hawk 209-109 from Pekanbaru and Pontianak AB. Even now it's still so (with 70-80% fleet readiness compared to 60-70% on F-16 and Flankers). The reasons is simply because the Hawks is the most economical/easy to maintain and operated. Some people in here (including our Parliament members) think some kind of 'scandal' when the learn only 7 out of 10 Flankers (which is basically the newest asset of TNI-AU) were keep on operational readiness. What they don't realize, for Flankers 70% 'sustain' readiness is already in good category considered the Flankers is heavy maintenance Fighters to begin with.
What I'm getting at (no offense to Filipino members), the more advance fighters, the more complex infrastructure and organizational support needed. That's why I said , yes Philippines Gov't now perhaps willing to spend for 12 F-16, but is PAF already ready (especially for support and maintenance infrastructure and organizational wise) to receive F-16 ? It will need more Investment for PAF (not just the ability to buy F-16) to maintain and sustain F-16 operation.
TNI-AU initially have reluctance in operating Flankers (this can be seen from several press interview). Not because Flankers capability, but because they know they need to invest a lot on supporting role (Pilots training, Ground Infrastructure etc). That's why it's take few years (not until 2010) for TNI-AU Flankers to begin receiving Armaments, because TNI-AU need to invest more on supporting infrastructure first. The investment for supporting role can be as much as same with the procurement price for the aircraft.
In short, if PAF really want to operate F-16, I suspect they need to invest double than the upgrading price (USD 360 mio if turn out to be USD 30 mio for each F-16), to be able to operate those F-16 say in 36 months after the contract signed. So around USD 700 mio (out of plan USD 1.6 bio budget) need to be set aside to get 12 F-16 plus building the supporting infrastructure and pilot training and weapons. Since now PAF also lack advance jet trainers (LIFT), Pilot training can be outsourced out of country which will increase the costs again.
Once again, I don't have demising intention for PAF, and personally I do hope PAF can operated advance fighters again so to improved regional security. However if only thinking to operate advance Fighter Jets just needed budget to procured them, it's misleading (which many Politician in Indonesia done). Modern Air Force is a very expensive game, and procuring the fighting asset is just half of the investment needed to make it operating effectively.
fretburner
Banned Member
On a different news...
PAF Gets 4 New Choppers
Picture here
I wonder if this can be operated on the 2 Hamilton-Class WHECs? I know the PN is getting a couple of choppers each for those cutters, but I haven't read anywhere regarding the type of helo.
PAF Gets 4 New Choppers
Picture here
I wonder if this can be operated on the 2 Hamilton-Class WHECs? I know the PN is getting a couple of choppers each for those cutters, but I haven't read anywhere regarding the type of helo.
While everything you say is true there are other options. Every nation wants to grow their own and for so many reasons. If fact most nations would prefer to design and build their own weapons and for so many reasons we can all easily understand.
Small nations, no matter how wealthy, modern, or motivated, for many practical reasons cannot design and build their own weapons when it comes to something as big and complex as modern fighter air-craft. Though the most modern and wealthily states like Israel and Singapore can fully man, deploy, maintain, fight, and to some extent, modify outsider built platforms to their specific needs.
Historically what countries do when they need capacity quickly is to hire outsides’ to man and maintain and operate these weapons, which if they think that they desperately need them, they do. But just until they can bring their open people up to speed and replace them. Be they called advisors or mercenaries these people give capacity quickly. And if they hire combat veterans with a track record they get credibility very quickly.
Also what I think you are not taking into account is the vast Pilipino diaspora around the world. There are lots of highly skilled and tech savvy Filipinos’ in the world, it is just that they do not want to live in the Philippines. I will not get into the reasons why. But if the Pilipino government could induce them to come home there is a large potential pool with all of various needed skills to draw from to speed the process.
Discounting all the money that would be necessary, which we all know they do not have, the real seismic problem in the Philippines and the reason that they stayed so poor with little hope of improvement, is all the cronyism within all parts of their society. A society where merit does not pay and only connections do. My very personal option, and it is one that has only been reinforced by the many successful filipinos' I have known whom have immigrated from the Philippines and do not want to go back even to retire in a lower cost country, where most of their relatives live.
But they can change if they want to. The ones that immigrate often change very quickly and then prosper.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
rip, corruption and cronyism, is and still endemic in Asia not only Philippines. Singapore and Japan perhaps is the only 2 nation in East and SE Asia that the level of corruption already in very low and in line with the best in the western world.
Philippines used to be the most advance nation in Asia outside Japan throughout 50's and 60's. Even in the 70's Philippines is still doing relatively better than much of her neighbors. What I'm getting at, is Philippines have and always have potential to do much better, but it will take time and a lot of investment to catch up.
The level of neglect on the defense development in Philippines is worse than say Indonesia which need USD 15 bio up until 2014 just to create minimum catching-up program with the rest of the region. If Indonesia need USD 15 bio (which already stated by the administrations) just to get minimum catch-up, you can imagine how much that Philippines has to prepared to get minimum catch-up also.
That's why getting F-16 with the amount of Investment that Philippines willing to provide, in my opinion is not a smart move. Again is not that Philippines can't afford those 12 F-16, is just it will take-up much larger proportion of the fund available just to procured, and build supporting infrastructure (soft and hard) to maintain and operated those F-16. The actual 'high' cost to maintain modern Air Force in my opinion actually the soft skill.
Even though the Philippines President and Foreign Ministry talk much about getting 1 sq of F-16, but looking to what Philippines Air Force wants, seems to me the PAF knows that getting F-16 at this moment is not the right choice. With the talked on getting M-346 or T-50, I believe PAF already make smart choice. PAF knows that they have to 'rebuild' their soft skill first (on operating fast jet forces). Hopefully this will lead after few years of LIFT operation for 'real' fast jet operation again for PAF.
As the Philippines is not in imminent threat of armed conflict with anyone, including China, rather than getting F-16s, perhaps a more prudent and useful move would be to get a fleet of affordable MPAs with decent legs, such as the CN-235s. And to start investing in basic trainers as part of the move to re-establish a ground support infrastructure with the aim of getting fighters in a few years. And what about radars? Does the PAF operate any surveillance radars or is coverage of the nations airspace provide by commercial aviation radars?
fretburner
Banned Member
I wonder if getting drones is cheaper than getting a bunch of F-16s. I'd rather see better ISR capabilities with the ability to strike when the opportunity arises, ala Predator B with Hellfires.
It would be easier and faster but at this point in their development not cheaper. Maybe someday but not to day.