Cheers for that, did a search and did not even think to ad Kiwi to it
, and didnt think it was that far back, 2005 ! I will read the thread to see what was said, thanks again
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
- Start date
, and didnt think it was that far back, 2005 ! I will read the thread to see what was said, thanks again
New Zealand companies are accorded the same commercial rights to compete in australia as australian companies.
Both Aust and NZ industry have mutual rights under CER. We don't and won't exclude NZ companies that bid for work in Oz - and its reciprocated
Closer Economic Relations - CER Australia New Zealand - Australian High Commission
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Cheers (but I was thinking which NZ companies have the experience, granted there are some here, but did they have the capacity)?
there are NZ companies that could compete in aviation bids, capacity is all about scale and surge and given enough warning, I do believe that they could ramp up if necessary.
perhaps not as effectively (as in immediacy of surge) in a wartime requirement, but that also is an issue of timing.
you'd appreciate the fact that I'm not going to identify specific NZ companies...
It has the radar, ECM systems -- scroll back up and fine the video link, you can see part of the ECM systems on the nose. The radar is the "black bit" beneath the "beak", where the FLIR would go.
Ok: this is NOT a link to ANOTHER forum:
h.t.t.p.//rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Postwar&action=display&thread=12969&page=7
remove the dots, and have a look at some RNZAF official photos.
It is interesting the RNZAF take all these very nice photos of the NH90s both in France & here, yet not one has appeared on their website. We have to see them through the back door so to speak. They haven't even updated their webpage on them since Baron von R got his wings way back when. Thanks for access to the photo links.
Maybe the bloke who did the website updates has been let go by Dr Mapp since he was not frontline and all that.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Cheers Dave, yes noticed the lack of FLIR above the radome. (But I've also seen other nation's NH90 pic's without them though other blurbs state those country's are buying them ... and all we have seen are mainly early NZDF publicity photos, admittedly they weren't fitted to one that arrived yesterday - unless that was a security precaution etc)?
A net search (eg Deagel) states the FLIR is the French Euroflir 410:
http://www.sagem-ds.com/IMG/pdf/en_09.pdf
http://www.sagem-ds.com/IMG/pdf/D1402E_Euroflir_410.pdf
Still keen to hear an official or authoritive explanation (i.e. MoD or NZDF) as to whether NZ has bought them or not ...or perhaps have specified another make/model to be fitted locally? Wonder what the ADF are fitting to their MRH-90's? The Euroflir?
http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/galle...3275m_RAN_MRH_90_A40_002_Townsville_27Sep2009
(Also some interesting reading in parts of this article: http://www.eisc.com.cn/webdata/Data.asp?nRecno=51433&Recno=277380&kw=[Radar])
A lack of adequate funding leading to a lack of adequate training leading to a culture of “make do with what we have got” leading to shortcuts being taken leading to a culture of risk taking, not just at the individual level, but at squadron level and in fact at HQ level.
Culture of rule breaking led to Iroquois crash | Stuff.co.nz
Nick Cree | Fatal Flaw To Stunt Pilot's Move | Stuff.co.nz
The systemic issues concerning the flight operations side of the RNZAF are still somewhat wider than these court of inquiry findings in my view. For example, both the RNZAF advanced and type conversion training has been (and has had to be due to inadequate funding) half arsed since the late 1990’s when cost cutting effectively shafted the old tried and true approach as well as denying the RNZAF of the right platforms and technology to properly train flight crew. In my opinion this may well be the initial causal nexus of the tragic events that followed.
Culture of rule breaking led to Iroquois crash | Stuff.co.nz
Nick Cree | Fatal Flaw To Stunt Pilot's Move | Stuff.co.nz
The systemic issues concerning the flight operations side of the RNZAF are still somewhat wider than these court of inquiry findings in my view. For example, both the RNZAF advanced and type conversion training has been (and has had to be due to inadequate funding) half arsed since the late 1990’s when cost cutting effectively shafted the old tried and true approach as well as denying the RNZAF of the right platforms and technology to properly train flight crew. In my opinion this may well be the initial causal nexus of the tragic events that followed.
Well looks as though Australia has gone with C-27J, wonder what, if anything that means for the RNZAFs future planning, could be abit expensive for us to get sufficient numbers but then again savings could be made in mutual training, support, logistics etc.
We probably still won't see anything for another 10-20 years while government talks the talk and the eventual lengthy decision/aqquisition/introduction steam engine process finally fires up.
We probably still won't see anything for another 10-20 years while government talks the talk and the eventual lengthy decision/aqquisition/introduction steam engine process finally fires up.
t68
Well-Known Member
At this stage nothing official has been released, the article in the news section is a possible sale not confirmed. Those here with inside info can confirm it but I suspect that they cannot due to security reasons, don’t want to spill the beans and Gillard selects a different suppler like what happened with Sky News and the ABC debacle.
Actually was wondering if anybody has had the foresight to tack an order for 6 aircraft to end of RAAF order kitted out same to specs. Of course have to get our own sim etc but would be cheaper now than later. Not as though we would have to pay for them today.
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Personally, I would wait for the review of our Future Air Mobility needs due in 2015 before jumping the gun. That review will look at what mix of platforms, for what purpose and at what numbers are to be required. General Jones and Co are looking at the NZDF holistically and not piecemeal like what happened under the 1990’s and 2000’s. It is going to be worth the extra couple of years wait to get it right.
Also the specific light tactical transport criteria for the RAAF may be different to the RNZAF requirements leading to their choice being made. For example they wanted their future light tactical transport to carry G Models long desert distances around continental Australia and also be flying “in theatre” capable as wired up tactical airtaxi’s. In NZ we do have different operational tasking needs.
Where the RAAF’s future Light Transports will at times "go global" and be up for operating in high threat zones as envisaged in their DWP - it is very likely as per our DWP focus - that our Light Transports will atypically be required for SASO and Hm/Spt in the Pacific or for Civ/Spt missions in and around NZ. We will go global using whatever replaces the C-130H/B757 not using own Light Tactical's.
Yep think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head:smilie
RAAF decision means diddly-squat at this point for NZDF - only becomes a potential factor when future air mobility requirements are studied.
Govt have made intentions crystal clear with DWP & more recently the DCP (Defence Capability Plan). Govt has made it clear that the only likely purchases foreseen for now are B200 replacement (or upgrade); new Advanced Trainer; 3 additional A109 (poss. to co-incide with final Huey decomm!?!).
They have also been very clear about there being no extra $$$ and what $$$ there is will be tightly stretched - with no scope whatsover for sudden unexpected purchases - ie: no new transports outside of any air mobility req's study.
Given Govt has stated C130 & B757 replcements should offer both tactical & strategic capability, we are likely to only get one type. And we're never likely to get a large number of transports - so at best any 2nd tier transport type will be a small fleet tasked with training & operational roles, mostly likely with minimal overseas deployment.
I do think we are likely to see a much more coherent approach to defence planning if successive Govts buy into the Joint Amphibious Task Force concept.
Still do not nescessarily read one aircraft type, it just states we will replace what is currently provided by the Hercs and Boeings, tactical and strategic, one type covering both would be advantageous in terms of maintanence, training and operating etc but if we are better served with a mix for optimal taskings then we would be silly to limit ourselves straight off. They probably will go with one type just because no one wants to pay extra for the boeing type but it does not automatically read one aircraft is whats going to happen.
Someone came up with the plan to have commercial jet for the NZDF back in the 727 days so there has been a justification all these years for use and now the main reason behind talk of axeing the boeings is cost cutting, if we were still financially sound would this still be the case? Who knows what financial state we will be in come replacement time, could be worse, same or better, and this will determine type(s), numbers and options. Heck as unlikely as it is some genius in govt could consider scrapping air transport altogether all to save a buck and rely on others to cover because they don't feel we need it, has happened before with the F-16s and no one saw that slap coming, who knows.
t68
Well-Known Member
I can see RNZAF going down to a single aircraft (tactical/strategic), my guess would be that Germany will make offer to on sell the A400M; RNZAF should accept 8 aircraft at a reduced price if they can grab the 13 aircraft all the better but cannot see it.
The NZGov is expressing an interest in the P8 Poseidon, if the timing is right they may opt for more A400M with P-8 being downgraded to a C235/295 with an MPA pallet, P8’s might cost NZ up to $400m NZD if the possible Australian purchase price of $300m AUD is any guide, this will give airforce a versatile fleet in regards to transport.
The NZGov is expressing an interest in the P8 Poseidon, if the timing is right they may opt for more A400M with P-8 being downgraded to a C235/295 with an MPA pallet, P8’s might cost NZ up to $400m NZD if the possible Australian purchase price of $300m AUD is any guide, this will give airforce a versatile fleet in regards to transport.
Are you seriously considering that the RNZAF go down to a second tier asset MPA asset? Have you not read the DWP? The job the Orions do is absolutely central to the defence capability of NZ. It is a cornerstone regional capability. That is why the P-8 is front and centre in the future NZDF plans.
Actually RegR the purchase of the B727's in 1981 was a cost cutting measure in itself. The RNZAF wanted a third tranche of 2-3 C-130's at the time. However the Muldoon government thought that getting 3 used B727's for less than half the cost of two new C-130H's was the way to go. Hindsight revealed that the B727 and the B757 were hugely inefficent in comparison to operating a C-130H over the lifecycle.
Classic case when amateurs with decision power (Treasury and Cabinet) trump experts with knowledge (RNZAF).
t68
Well-Known Member
Do I think RNZAF need P8 yes I do, will they get it IMHO no I don’t.
If the NZGov was serious about tactical /strategic lift they would have replaced C-130H with C-130J instead of upgrading the current C-130H and done a back end deal with AusGov in regards to C-17 and taken advantage of a group buy, but they did not due to cost factors. 1x C17 is roughly 300m AUD which is just shy of 400m NZD, P8 is roughly the same price as a C17.
IMHO NZGov will go the C235/295 with MPA pallet option plus UAV(for coalition overseas air events) working with the RAAF due to cost factors, with 8x A400M for large loads of long haul tactical/strategic lift and a 6x multi role C235/295 for MPA, short haul intra theatre lift due to cost factors not for the lack of want/need.
the road runner
Active Member
I would assume the C-130J Versions of the herc would be purchased,as the NZDF already have used and operated this craft?( And alot of the ground equipment is already in place.)
Mr Conservative I didnt know about NZ Purchasing B727 as a cost saving for C-130.
I would assume this would be a big point(in the NZAF) in selecting a "single" future transporter for the NZAF.IE.Not to go down the same path as last time.
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