F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

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ADMk2

Just a bloke
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The A-10 is literally built around its 30-mm GE GAU-8 Avenger seven barrel cannon, the most powerful gun ever fitted to an aircraft of this class. It was designed for high-survivability with a titanium cover surrounding both the cockpit, ammunition and fuel tank. Placement of the engines decreases the infrared signature lowering it's vulnerablity to heatseeking missiles and ground fire.
And yet the overwhelming majority of it's operational employment has been employing precision guided munitions including Maverick, Paveway and latterly JDAM.

Whilst it's engines are somewhat shielded from the ground it's speed and altitude it traditionally operates at makes it far more vulnerable to SAM's and trashfire than fast movers flying at higher speed and higher altitudes. It is armoured yes, but it's better not to be hit than have some ability to withstand a hit...

I'm a big fan of this cannon. The A-10 will be replaced by attack helicopters. The F-35 will never do the intimate work that getting up close offers. Modern warfare is often waged in populated areas.
So you'd prefer to spray an unguided 30mm cannon into a populated area than guided rockets, missiles or bombs, would you?

The cannon is reasonable in it's intended role, which is firing on 70's era tanks and softe skin vehicles.

I don't think that spraying it into highly populated environments would comply with even the most lax rules of engagements, which is probably why the A-10 is overwhelmingly employed to drop Paveway and JDAM in modern operations.

I think the F-35 will be just fine at this...
 

colay

New Member
And yet the overwhelming majority of it's operational employment has been employing precision guided munitions including Maverick, Paveway and latterly JDAM.

Whilst it's engines are somewhat shielded from the ground it's speed and altitude it traditionally operates at makes it far more vulnerable to SAM's and trashfire than fast movers flying at higher speed and higher altitudes. It is armoured yes, but it's better not to be hit than have some ability to withstand a hit...



So you'd prefer to spray an unguided 30mm cannon into a populated area than guided rockets, missiles or bombs, would you?


The cannon is reasonable in it's intended role, which is firing on 70's era tanks and softe skin vehicles.

I don't think that spraying it into highly populated environments would comply with even the most lax rules of engagements, which is probably why the A-10 is overwhelmingly employed to drop Paveway and JDAM in modern operations.

I think the F-35 will be just fine at this...
There's a video on the Internet showing what happens when an A-10 pilot keeps his finger on the trigger on that big Avenger cannon for a bit too long as he pulls out of his strafing run.. he dug a nice long furrow stretching into the next neighborhood .. hell of a plow to prepare the ground for next season's crop..:)
 

LGB

New Member
If a CAS mission can be flown from 20,000 feet then absent a significant threat any bomb truck will do. The question then becomes, for this, whether a long loiter UCAS or a bomber with reasonable loiter and a high weapons load isn't a better platform than a strike fighter?

There are times, however, today when for CAS one does need to go low and slow. In terms of the light COIN aircraft:

according to Capt. Mark Mullins, a naval special warfare officer serving as the deputy director of the Navy Irregular Warfare Office at the Pentagon.

"It's not about flying in from 1,000 miles away, dropping some thousand-pound bombs and leaving," Mullins said. "It's about working with [the ground force], doing the intelligence preparation of the battlespace, doing a [communication] relay, close air support, eyes on target and if there's squirters leaving the target, keeping up with them and tracking them down and doing [bomb damage assessment] at the end." (Defense News)
 

gf0012-aust

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If a CAS mission can be flown from 20,000 feet then absent a significant threat any bomb truck will do. The question then becomes, for this, whether a long loiter UCAS or a bomber with reasonable loiter and a high weapons load isn't a better platform than a strike fighter?

There are times, however, today when for CAS one does need to go low and slow. In terms of the light COIN aircraft:

according to Capt. Mark Mullins, a naval special warfare officer serving as the deputy director of the Navy Irregular Warfare Office at the Pentagon.

"It's not about flying in from 1,000 miles away, dropping some thousand-pound bombs and leaving," Mullins said. "It's about working with [the ground force], doing the intelligence preparation of the battlespace, doing a [communication] relay, close air support, eyes on target and if there's squirters leaving the target, keeping up with them and tracking them down and doing [bomb damage assessment] at the end." (Defense News)
With the greatest of respect to the NSWO, he is ignoring the reality that the majority of CAS for afghanistan has come from the heavies - as the lights cannot get in and sustain support. - and they are coming from 2000+km away and have been able to sustain support because the mission planners are factoring in overlap as well as sustainment (time/loiter)

and I say that as someone who knows first hand that troops have called in CAS and got persistent help from the heavies - and often at danger close levels.

the argument against JSF doing the job is just as much a canard as arguing that the A-10 is the only suitable aircraft to provide CAS

in fact in a number of events the JTAC has had to call in the heavies when the fighters could only do one pass - and those passes often did not do enough to deter the attacks.

real life experience is challenging a lot of the regular claims made about CAS - and consistently so.

CAS is a capability issue, not a platform issue. and the relevance of the platform is against the environment.

CAS in afghanistan has shown that the pet theories developed against a fulda gap scenario just do not hold true in todays environment. (ie fulda allowed immediacy of available air relative to the environment and had a less urban element to it, on top of which PGM's then were relatively primitive

I'd suggest that the good officer actually speak to people currently in the field about what the current CAS environment typically is. His turn of phrase on what the JTACs should do is exactly what they currently do, except they're calling in heavies as they are on tap - and they are still hitting the targets that previously everyone assumed was the lights and rotors domain.

PGM's on reverse slopes at altitude from on high tax the smalls and can expose them to small anti-air anyway. B-52's and B1's have regularly and repeatedly shown that what happens in the real world is not the same as whats assumed in the open press.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What Mullins is talking about is a FAC [Forward Air Control] aircraft not a CAS aircraft. Weaponry on a contemporary FAC would be more like an attack helo. A gun and a Hellfire or two for self defence, low intensity SEAD/DEAD (whacking Dshka guns on high angle tripods before they get you). Standoff visual target marking is less important these days but some 2.75" rockets with Flechette warheads could be good for quick response to a potential overrun situation on the ground. But the main role is C2 and recce. Time to put the Cessna O-2TT Turbo-Skymaster into production.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What Mullins is talking about is a FAC [Forward Air Control] aircraft not a CAS aircraft. Weaponry on a contemporary FAC would be more like an attack helo. A gun and a Hellfire or two for self defence, low intensity SEAD/DEAD (whacking Dshka guns on high angle tripods before they get you). Standoff visual target marking is less important these days but some 2.75" rockets with Flechette warheads could be good for quick response to a potential overrun situation on the ground. But the main role is C2 and recce. Time to put the Cessna O-2TT Turbo-Skymaster into production.
I'd suggest that CAPT Mullins is also using the data that the USN has been pulling out of Sth America where fighting pairs are employed and where the USN has gone out and purchased a couple of Embraers as part of their own COIN evaluation program.

That being the case, the USN evaluation of CAS is not against the same conditions that regular army and the specials are dealing with in Afghanistan. The SEALs have also done their own CAS evaluation, but that also has been based on close proximity models where they can call air in basically on tap. Afghanistan has little of that as long range ISR means that coalition light air is often not available and when available is not persistent - a common complaint about it - hence the not infrequent stories starting from GW1 where lights did high speed low level passes after ammo was exhausted to try and spook red team. There has been a recent example of where a Hornet D ran out of weaps after one pass, and did a final low level fly over as she exited the field. Tankers would not have helped as she was weapons empty.

One of the other advantages of the heavies in afghanistan has been that they racetrack and can selectively deliver loads on disparate targets without compromising time on station. In fact this was reinforced at the last Land Warfare Conf where USMC staff talked about the changes in CAS due to PGM's and how they were adapting the use of iPhones to become mini JTAC tools to talk to the racetracking crows etc....

CAS is about platform relevance for that capability - the pet rock theories about platform exclusivity are being progressively demolished - funnily enough the USMC briefers have spoken about the B1's and B52's being regarded as the new "whispering death" - the Taliban fear the bombers and UAV's more than the fighters as they don't hear them until weapons are impacting.

B1's and B52's would be a waste of time in Ecuador and Colombia (which is where the USN CAS evaluations have been conducted against input from the other USG alphabet agencies) - Fighting pairs however have proven their worth.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Afghanistan has little of that as long range ISR means that coalition light air is often not available and when available is not persistent - a common complaint about it - hence the not infrequent stories starting from GW1 where lights did high speed low level passes after ammo was exhausted to try and spook red team. There has been a recent example of where a Hornet D ran out of weaps after one pass, and did a final low level fly over as she exited the field. Tankers would not have helped as she was weapons empty.
Yeah flare dropping... because its the only store left on the aircraft. Atk helos are facing the same problem even while a short range responsive asset. To fly in hot and high Afghanistan they have to massively cut their weapons load (900 lbs tops). Not hovering above the nice and cold and low altitude north german plain anymore.

Speaking of the F-35 its higher endurance and drag free internal weapons carriage will enable it to carry quite a few more stores. I wonder how many GBU-12/38s you could fit in those bays if you really tried? 4 for sure (no AMRAAMs needed), maybe 6 or 8? With three hours loiter on a full tank of gas. Much better than current jets carrying that kind of warload external.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
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Yeah flare dropping... because its the only store left on the aircraft. Atk helos are facing the same problem even while a short range responsive asset. To fly in hot and high Afghanistan they have to massively cut their weapons load (900 lbs tops). Not hovering above the nice and cold and low altitude north german plain anymore.

Speaking of the F-35 its higher endurance and drag free internal weapons carriage will enable it to carry quite a few more stores. I wonder how many GBU-12/38s you could fit in those bays if you really tried? 4 for sure (no AMRAAMs needed), maybe 6 or 8? With three hours loiter on a full tank of gas. Much better than current jets carrying that kind of warload external.
Or 8x SDB / JAGM's...
 

mitenotlikeit

New Member
Cold war-era

The F-35 is not the same aircraft as the A-10, no. Does that mean it's incapable of the CAS mission? No, it doesn't. CAS isn't necessarily about going as low and slow as you can with a great big cannon designed for killing Cold War-era main battle tanks. There's other ways to achieve the desired effects. Have a look around for information on the use of the B-1, for example, for close air support in Afghanistan, you might be surprised at what you read. :)
Bonza has identified a significant issue. Cold war-era concerns. I would guess that he is in part referring to the massive build up of armor in Russia. This continues to pose somewhat of a problem in the event that these vehicles are deployed in massive numbers across Europe or the Middle East. Neglect may not be enough to render this massive number of tanks useless.
I'm certainly not disputing the applications that the F-35 or B-1 can serve with impressive success.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Bonza has identified a significant issue. Cold war-era concerns. I would guess that he is in part referring to the massive build up of armor in Russia. This continues to pose somewhat of a problem in the event that these vehicles are deployed in massive numbers across Europe or the Middle East. Neglect may not be enough to render this massive number of tanks useless.
I'm certainly not disputing the applications that the F-35 or B-1 can serve with impressive success.
When the A-10 was designed in the late 1960s guided anti tank weapons were in their infancy so the good ole fashioned gun attack and cluster bombs were seen as the best way to knock out massed tanks. Since then a range of guided anti tank weapons have been developed to provide the kind of deep reach an A-10 would without all the risk. They include air launched and ground launched ordnance.

As to the remanets of the Soviet tank fleet not only does it lack working components but also ammunition, crews, units and a range of slightly important things required to realise military potential. You could mobilise them Libyan revolution style but that might work against the joke of Gaddafi’s army but not anyone else. It would be even worse for the tanks than the Yugos rolling into Slovenia back in ’91.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Bonza has identified a significant issue. Cold war-era concerns. I would guess that he is in part referring to the massive build up of armor in Russia.
What massive build of of armour in Russia? Russia has already scrapped many thousands of tanks, & is cutting the remaining armour inventory considerably. To a large extent this is merely recognition of the reality that many of the tanks in stock aren't functional, lack crews, & that it's not worth repairing & crewing them unless you then spend the unaffordable extra to fit them with modern systems.
 

mitenotlikeit

New Member
Neglect works then !

When the A-10 was designed in the late 1960s guided anti tank weapons were in their infancy so the good ole fashioned gun attack and cluster bombs were seen as the best way to knock out massed tanks. Since then a range of guided anti tank weapons have been developed to provide the kind of deep reach an A-10 would without all the risk. They include air launched and ground launched ordnance.

As to the remanets of the Soviet tank fleet not only does it lack working components but also ammunition, crews, units and a range of slightly important things required to realise military potential. You could mobilise them Libyan revolution style but that might work against the joke of Gaddafi’s army but not anyone else. It would be even worse for the tanks than the Yugos rolling into Slovenia back in ’91.
Thanks for the reply Abraham Gubler. I'm certain that modern air and ground launched ordnance does indeed make alot of foreign armor personnel extremely nervous. It would appear from your reply that negligence in Russia has in fact done a fine job of rendering a massive number of tanks reasonably useless.

Mod edit: Yep, and now back to the F-35 eh?

AD
 
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SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
The F-35 program achieved it's 3rd of 5 goals for 2011 by starting shipboard trials with the F-35B.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7cAmCCmObw&feature=feedu"]F 35B 1st Landing on USS WASP - YouTube[/nomedia]
 

jack412

Active Member
That marks a major milestone in the R&D testing of the F-35B, I read the USMC are looking at 2015 for IOC now

I'd like to say it will quiet down the usual naysayers on various forums, but it didn't, funnily they just got louder and more boisterous with their bias
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I'd like to say it will quiet down the usual naysayers on various forums, but it didn't, funnily they just got louder and more boisterous with their bias
If you want an example of a moron in flight (no pun intended) checkout the SP thread on the JSF cockpit
 

jack412

Active Member
If you want an example of a moron in flight (no pun intended) checkout the SP thread on the JSF cockpit
Yes, but he has an excuse because he's obviously 'Cerebrally challenged'.
I was referring more to the ones that should know better, Bill, clown club & Co but they have painted themselves into a corner from which they get even more desperate in their criticism

What did amuse me was when Goon put up this link that got a bite from Goon's email spamming, but the author didn't take him at face value and made a couple of phone calls, I still dont think Goon realises his tripe was slammed.
JSF cuts 'could bankrupt contractors' - National News - National - General - The Canberra Times
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
Props to Xav

Here is the video of the first STOVL takeoff and a few more landings.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxQTvqVvVoE&fmt=18"]F-35B vertical launch on USS WASP - YouTube[/nomedia]
 
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