Importance of A-10 Thunderbolt (warthog)

ZPU2

New Member
As usual in modern aerial warfare history, there will always be a place for "obsolete" machines in spite of the introduction of more efficient, but costly aircrafts. Remember the Skyraider (Spad..).
Considering the reason of the existence of the A10 it was no surprise that the aircraft did achieve its mission against iraqi armor in 1991. Afterwards, the aircraft has been used in low threats environments where flak, SAMs and air defence were almost nonexistent compared to a Warsaw pact all out attack in 1985..
It comes down to cost efficiency versus threat level.
What is more cost effective in Afghanistan, to use F35 or A10? I would say A10, but if we transpose the scenario in Korea for example, the answer will certainly be different.
 

keiran3

New Member
It seems to me (without having read the entire thread) that the mission profile of the F-35 is almost exactly the same as the F-16's (higher tech notwithstanding) when the USAF tried to replace the Hog with that. The major argument for F-35 procurement being made (esp. by Gates & Co.) has been its relevance to the "new" world of counterinsurgency operations. Has it really not occurred to anyone yet that the answer to the RPG doesn't need to cost great wads of money?
The A-10 is one of precious few platforms in the USAF inventory to achieve something like real cost-effectiveness. It strikes me that no one has ever considered replacing it with something equally cost-effective, as though to erase that aberrant moment of fiscal responsibility.
Granted, there will always be a need for high-end aircraft. But this does not imply a need, or justification, for paying for additional expensive airframes to do close support work.
 

GI-Gizmo

New Member
The A-10 should start production again in the future...

If I was in charge I would definently make sure the A-10 stays around well into the future. I think that the A-10 is irreplacable when it comes to providing close air support to friendly troops, destroying enemy armor and being able to loiter for long periods of time. Critics say that in the future modern air defenses systems, especially frontline mobile systems will threaten the A-10 and lessen its importance. They point to the F-35, UCAVs and even attack helos as replacing the A-10 as the main CAS air assets. Some even see giant, loitering 'bomb trucks' flying figure eights over the frontline providing support with a massive load of JDAMS, such as the B-52s did in the opening stages of Afghanistan. Personally I dont see anything as effective, threatening or devastating as an A-10 overhead coming in low to strafe a target, dropping flares and doing maneuvers. The sound of the GAU-8 cannon alone provides a psychological effect on the enemy that can not be replicated by a something else. Ofcourse, if and when we do have to fight a well equipped enemy alot of energy will have to be spent on retarding their air defenses, protecting against MANPADs and battling in the electromagnetic spectrum for the A-10 to be as effective as it can be without putting them in ridiculous danger. The A-10 is currently shceduled to stay active to around 2028. I believe a new production run starting around 2025, maybe an A-10E model, a much more effective and re-designed aircraft, would be a good idea. The F-35, UCAVs, attack helos and 'bomb trucks' would all have their places in the CAS role too, but the A-10 would always be there when it is needed.
 

mitenotlikeit

New Member
A-!0 Thunderbolt

I read some of the comments about the A-10 Thunderbolt. I understand production is no longer possible. The range of the the A-10 is not very impressive. It's speed either. I know that it's one terrifying weapon against armor. Certain British forces reported that they were terrified throughout an accidental encounter with one while serving in Iraq. I suppose the A-10 will be replaced with attack helicopters.
 

colay

New Member
IMO the future of. CAS, the type of loitering over the battlefield low and slow that he A-10 was originally conceived for, will eventually become the province of UCAVs. In conflicts with negligible threats to a/c as in Afghanistan, the A-10 is fine. Against a better trained foe equipped with updated weaponry, the jet faces a good chance of destruction, regardless of armor and countermeasures. Maybe if they equipped it with a DIRCM system,, that would mitigate the threat from IR missiles. but does nothing for optically-guided missiles. AAA Is cheap, abundant and pack a deadly wallop. Even a dumb rpg with a little luck can be lethal.
Thw A-10 would best use its new stand-off targeting capabilitie in such a scenario until such time that the robots can take over.
 

the road runner

Active Member
I suppose the A-10 will be replaced with attack helicopters.
JSF.mil > Program > Overview

The Joint Strike Fighter will replace A-10 Warthogs.

colay said:
IMO the future of. CAS, the type of loitering over the battlefield low and slow that he A-10 was originally conceived for, will eventually become the province of UCAVs
Could be,i was under the Impression that the JSF will be a first day of war aircraft,once Air superiority is Achieved ,the battlefield would be saturated with UAVs.

Regards
 

colay

New Member
JSF.mil > Program > Overview
3
The Joint Strike Fighter will replace A-10 Warthogs.



Could be,i was under the Impression that the JSF will be a first day of war aircraft,once Air superiority is Achieved ,the battlefield would be saturated with UAVs.

Regards
Yes, the F-35 will fill that role. I was just speculating that if there really is a need to go low and slow in the future, it makes sense to use an unmanned platformand eliminate anyrisk to pilots. There was this intriguing concept called "battlehog" floating round the internet several years back supposedly being built by some shadowy company .. used a ducted fan design, heavily armored andarmwd with a rotary cannon ala A-10 plus all sorts of A2G weaponry.. its design even allowedit to carry AAMsfordefense against aircaft. Cool concept and a demonstratorws supposedly built but nothing reallymaterialized.
 

mitenotlikeit

New Member
Attack helicopters

Yes, the F-35 will fill that role. I was just speculating that if there really is a need to go low and slow in the future, it makes sense to use an unmanned platformand eliminate anyrisk to pilots. There was this intriguing concept called "battlehog" floating round the internet several years back supposedly being built by some shadowy company .. used a ducted fan design, heavily armored andarmwd with a rotary cannon ala A-10 plus all sorts of A2G weaponry.. its design even allowedit to carry AAMsfordefense against aircaft. Cool concept and a demonstratorws supposedly built but nothing reallymaterialized.
I love the Warthog. Attack helicopters will replace it. Populated areas are becoming the combat zones. The F-35 has desirable performance in multi role fighting. It will never do well where armor is shielded by civilians.
 

Rimasta

Member
What are air force general smoking these days?

And lets not forget the A-10 is some ways is more survivable than a F-35. I've heard stories from Gulf war one where an air force A-10 was hit by a SAM i believe an SA-3. Anyway the aircraft lost an engine, all hydraulics, the pilot could see a huge hole in the wing, and the engine ate a fair amount of debris, and he still flew the hog home. I think this story here illustrates how in a CAS role the A-10 can loiter in the battle space, deal a tremendous amount of damage and absorb damage itself and then return to base. Using an F-35 doesn't seem logical to fill this roll, even with the small diameter bomb. The A-10 was built to stop large numbers of Russian tanks pouring into west Germany and it would seem it would have preformed in that role well. It seems stupid to replace a cost-effective low-tech rugged platform proven in battle with a high-tech, hard to afford super plane.
 

Rimasta

Member
I read some of the comments about the A-10 Thunderbolt. I understand production is no longer possible. The range of the the A-10 is not very impressive. It's speed either. I know that it's one terrifying weapon against armor. Certain British forces reported that they were terrified throughout an accidental encounter with one while serving in Iraq. I suppose the A-10 will be replaced with attack helicopters.
I don't think an attack helicopter will be able to fly as far or as fast as an A-10, nor will it be able to absorb damage like the A-10 nor can it carry as much ordnance to where it's really needed, in support of troops on the ground, possibly in danger of being overrun.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There needs to be some perspective here.

Its not an issue of whether the A-10 can conduct CAS better than anything else in the inventory (that is event and opportunity specific anyway) - the reality is that CAS has been taken up by other assets due to changes in weapons system advances - CAS is a capability issue - not a platform issue

Since GW2 CAS has been undertaken by other assets just as well (and situationally far more effectively) due to issues such as platform availability (ie heavies running racetracks), depth of mission (smaller CAS unable to reach, let alone sustain presence), location (flying conditions due to terran and terain issues (eg mountain areas where even helos cannot get in position)

Afghanistan and Iraq were not the Fulda Gap
 

mitenotlikeit

New Member
I don't think an attack helicopter will be able to fly as far or as fast as an A-10, nor will it be able to absorb damage like the A-10 nor can it carry as much ordnance to where it's really needed, in support of troops on the ground, possibly in danger of being overrun.
I think that battle zones are being drawn towards populated areas where civilian deterrents are present. As ugly as it is! That's why I think attack helicopters will replace the Warthog which I admit is faster, is capable of carrying more ordnance, is far more robust, is a very efficient tank buster, and no doubt a pleasure to see when things look bad. Thanks for clarifying all that Rimasta.
 

colay

New Member
Looking at the whole thing from another perspective, the advent of ground-based, precision artillery ranging from MLRS-based GPS missiles, Excalibur artillery shells, GPS-guided 120mm and 81mm mortar rounds, etc coupled with all sorts of tactical UAVs for situational awareness have made the ground forces increasingly less reliant on CAS. These are organic capabilities that can be just as accurate, if not more so, than CAS and will very likely be more responsive when called upon.
 

mitenotlikeit

New Member
Vision

Looking at the whole thing from another perspective, the advent of ground-based, precision artillery ranging from MLRS-based GPS missiles, Excalibur artillery shells, GPS-guided 120mm and 81mm mortar rounds, etc coupled with all sorts of tactical UAVs for situational awareness have made the ground forces increasingly less reliant on CAS. These are organic capabilities that can be just as accurate, if not more so, than CAS and will very likely be more responsive when called upon.
You have presented a strong case colay ! gf0012-aust made some relevent statements 18 hours ago as well. Bottom line. I love the Warthog and I see attack helicopters replacing it. Great debate.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Looking at the whole thing from another perspective, the advent of ground-based, precision artillery ranging from MLRS-based GPS missiles, Excalibur artillery shells, GPS-guided 120mm and 81mm mortar rounds, etc coupled with all sorts of tactical UAVs for situational awareness have made the ground forces increasingly less reliant on CAS. These are organic capabilities that can be just as accurate, if not more so, than CAS and will very likely be more responsive when called upon.
re the hilighted bit - actually its the direct opposite.
small units and force effectors are even more acutely aware of what CAS is available to them and its why the role of the JTAC has increased in importance.

In fact army are now attaching soldiers to the JTAC courses so as to give themselves organic experience and to grip up what issues the air force controllers have to deal with. This has been driven by the increasing shift to joint planning constructs (ie multi service in theatre)

Its because there is an increasing shift in platforms and weapons systems becoming nodes and active contributors to SA that these changes are happening - its why you have people in the USMC developing (eg) iPhone apps to takje advantage of 2g, 3g and the 4g spectrum to enhance awareness and appreciation of events in the field.

CAS is about getting the capability anywhere at anytime with the minimum of grief for those who need it, and its why the heavies have made such a significant impact on providing LR support.

CAS is very much bound by the same onion skin layered response model that self defence weapons are part of (eg on a skimmer). All of the CAS weapons detailed above are limited by the fact that they are bound by initial placement and are therefore already constrained by an arc of effect and engagement. Its why there has to be a cash and carry capability for mobile assets (and air provides relative speed and immediacy to get on station within the platforms mobility and placement constraints). "king of the battlefield" weapons are of obvious utility but need to be in range or have final destination update available to provide midcourse correction.

The russians demonstrated the use of tactical battlefield rockets a few years back when they used such a weapon to kill a chechyan leader 80km away based on triangulating signals coming from his mobile/cell/handy phone. Beyond 80km they needed air. - and air needed to be up.

In the 80's the average time for a US air asset to be directed to and engage a target of opportunity was 4hrs - in afghanistan its down to less than 15 minutes assuming that someone is up and running racetracks.

ground based "1st respondent" systems can't fulfill those roles. esp in an unstructured contact model where red team are fighting at range. (eg they're of benefit where ground forces go out every day to rev up red team, but thats a defence centric model where troops are sallying forth from a fixed base of convenience). SF employ a similar model but go out further and for longer, so availablity of air for CAS (be it weapons effect or dropping in support troops from commandos or ranger type units when needed)
 

colay

New Member
GF, I've read refferences to a capability in the near future for groundcontrollers using Rover tech to actually to remotely operate a responding CAS a/c's targeting systems and deploy weapons, basically eliminating the middleman in the whole process, the guy in the plane. Is this another direction CAS will take? It should help eliminate miscommunications between air and ground and ensure a more timely and accurate response, wouldn't it? Applicable for UCAVs in the CAS role as well.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
GF, I've read refferences to a capability in the near future for groundcontrollers using Rover tech to actually to remotely operate a responding CAS a/c's targeting systems and deploy weapons, basically eliminating the middleman in the whole process, the guy in the plane. Is this another direction CAS will take? It should help eliminate miscommunications between air and ground and ensure a more timely and accurate response, wouldn't it? Applicable for UCAVs in the CAS role as well.
that capability is happening now, the end state is that authority to release still has to go through legals and be blessed before release.

the whole construct of having legals final blessing is to mitigate against a poor call.

the guy in the plane ultimately is just releasing the weapon, if he's getting updates prior to, or even updates with weapon inbound, then there is a possibility to pull or steer the shot.

the risk of a bad call rises when only one person is in the decision tree - ie pilot only, and even then they have final authority to release. In Iraq there were a number of instances where RAAF pilots had been given permission to release by other controllers (eg US/UK) but pulled the shot as they determined that the status of the target was unclear...

The danger is not so much of it being the pilot, its about the checks and balances around the decision. Removing the pilot can actually do more damage than good as its another mitigation process that adds benefit.

pilots have immediacy of situational appreciation and awareness that a geek at the keyboard does not. one could argue that the people in the trailer still only have a 2 dimensional appreciation even though they are seeing events unfold in 3 dimensions via a video feed - a pilot has 3d perspective all the time and in real time.

UAS control systems are of benefit, but they are no panacea for fixing comms problems or process problems.

effective ROE's and discipline are always the key, irrespective of whether its manned or 6 geeks in a shed.
 

colay

New Member
that capability is happening now, the end state is that authority to release still has to go through legals and be blessed before release.

the whole construct of having legals final blessing is to mitigate against a poor call.

the guy in the plane ultimately is just releasing the weapon, if he's getting updates prior to, or even updates with weapon inbound, then there is a possibility to pull or steer the shot.

the risk of a bad call rises when only one person is in the decision tree - ie pilot only, and even then they have final authority to release. In Iraq there were a number of instances where RAAF pilots had been given permission to release by other controllers (eg US/UK) but pulled the shot as they determined that the status of the target was unclear...

The danger is not so much of it being the pilot, its about the checks and balances around the decision. Removing the pilot can actually do more damage than good as its another mitigation process that adds benefit.

pilots have immediacy of situational appreciation and awareness that a geek at the keyboard does not. one could argue that the people in the trailer still only have a 2 dimensional appreciation even though they are seeing events unfold in 3 dimensions via a video feed - a pilot has 3d perspective all the time and in real time.

UAS control systems are of benefit, but they are no panacea for fixing comms problems or process problems.

effective ROE's and discipline are always the key, irrespective of whether its manned or 6 geeks in a shed.
Appreciate the insights.. I was alluding to a guy in the field right iin the middleof a situation watching it develop and directly applying the firepowerfrom above as needed.. I had this impression that he would have the authority to do so w/o having toget signoff from others.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Appreciate the insights.. I was alluding to a guy in the field right iin the middleof a situation watching it develop and directly applying the firepowerfrom above as needed.. I had this impression that he would have the authority to do so w/o having toget signoff from others.
the guy in the field still has to get release if he intends killing a target (animate and inanimate)

somewhere in the loop someone external has to bless it.
 

mitenotlikeit

New Member
A big thank-you

re the hilighted bit - actually its the direct opposite.
small units and force effectors are even more acutely aware of what CAS is available to them and its why the role of the JTAC has increased in importance.

In fact army are now attaching soldiers to the JTAC courses so as to give themselves organic experience and to grip up what issues the air force controllers have to deal with. This has been driven by the increasing shift to joint planning constructs (ie multi service in theatre)

Its because there is an increasing shift in platforms and weapons systems becoming nodes and active contributors to SA that these changes are happening - its why you have people in the USMC developing (eg) iPhone apps to takje advantage of 2g, 3g and the 4g spectrum to enhance awareness and appreciation of events in the field.

CAS is about getting the capability anywhere at anytime with the minimum of grief for those who need it, and its why the heavies have made such a significant impact on providing LR support.

CAS is very much bound by the same onion skin layered response model that self defence weapons are part of (eg on a skimmer). All of the CAS weapons detailed above are limited by the fact that they are bound by initial placement and are therefore already constrained by an arc of effect and engagement. Its why there has to be a cash and carry capability for mobile assets (and air provides relative speed and immediacy to get on station within the platforms mobility and placement constraints). "king of the battlefield" weapons are of obvious utility but need to be in range or have final destination update available to provide midcourse correction.

The russians demonstrated the use of tactical battlefield rockets a few years back when they used such a weapon to kill a chechyan leader 80km away based on triangulating signals coming from his mobile/cell/handy phone. Beyond 80km they needed air. - and air needed to be up.

In the 80's the average time for a US air asset to be directed to and engage a target of opportunity was 4hrs - in afghanistan its down to less than 15 minutes assuming that someone is up and running racetracks.

ground based "1st respondent" systems can't fulfill those roles. esp in an unstructured contact model where red team are fighting at range. (eg they're of benefit where ground forces go out every day to rev up red team, but thats a defence centric model where troops are sallying forth from a fixed base of convenience). SF employ a similar model but go out further and for longer, so availablity of air for CAS (be it weapons effect or dropping in support troops from commandos or ranger type units when needed)
Thanks for taking the time to illustrate all that gf0012-aust I'm going to use that as a reference. Hope you don't mind.
 
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