F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

[jack412]

you seem to think you know what is going on, what mistakes do they have ?
we need test and training aircraft and we cant wait till IOC to start training

 

[Abraham Gubler]

What's a 'mistake jet'? According to Google the best bet is the Yemenis bombing a bus, some guy who missed an Economy air jet or a greyhound called 'Jet' who makes lots of mistakes...

When a small sub-group of people start inventing their own language to describe the world you know things are going downhill for them...

 

[gf0012-aust]

you seem to think you know what is going on,

actually, its pretty apparent he doesn't.

when the rigour of a response revolves around peurile comments, and when the history of response on the subject is consistently off mark, then others can start coming to their own conclusions about the quality of that commentary

at an institute of engineers event the observation was made that the only other programs that were close to this level of complexity were the space shuttle prog and the virginia builds ( and JSF is more complex than the Virginia enhanced builds)

no other aircraft in history has gone through the same degree of digital development and parallel testing - no other fighter has used other aircraft as mules to test systems and sub systems before they're hard wired to the "real" platform

the level of inane and ill informed commentary beggars belief.

if he knows so much (and he would have to be working within Defence at a direct or affiliated ewarfare or comms program, not within a private company) then he knows all the other developments that are and have happened and have not been released into the public domain.

 

[SpudmanWP]

It seems that some are willing (and surreptitiously) moving the goal posts to make the F-35 look like a cost failure.

Lexington Institute

70-80 percent of all the increases in the cost to keep the F-35 flying are a consequence of changes in the way the Pentagon tracks and manages the program.

...

Instead of the 33 bases where the original 2002 sustainment estimate said the planes would operate, officials decided 49 was the right number. Instead of a 30-year lifespan, they decided it should be 50 years (without any increase in flight hours, making the whole program intrinsically less efficient). Instead of 253 major items of support equipment, they decided 525 would be needed. They also doubled the number of squadron logistics kits and quadrupled the number of initial training sites. Amazingly enough, estimated sustainment costs went up.

Another thing they decided to do was express long-term sustainment costs in "then-year" dollars, meaning dollars that include inflation. The only problem with that is no one has the foggiest idea what inflation rates are likely to be between now and 2065, the span of time covered by the estimates. So they made them up. Rather than reporting the cost of sustainment in today's dollars -- which would be about $500 billion over 50 years -- they quoted an utterly unprovable price-tag of $1.069 trillion. Needless to say, the latter number increased congressional concerns about affordability.

But the bean-counters didn't stop there. They neglected to mention to Congress in reporting F-35 sustainment costs that the existing fleet of tactical aircraft already costs about 20 percent more to sustain each year than they estimate the F-35 will ($12 billion versus $10.6 billion annually). They also failed to mention how the cost of sustaining the current tactical fleet will escalate using the same counting rules applied to F-35 as cold-war planes grow increasingly decrepit. If that information had been reported, it would have been apparent that the yearly cost of keeping all those ancient fighters flying will be nearly twice the estimated cost of F-35 sustainment by 2020. Follow that same trend-line out 50 years, and the legacy fleet costs four trillion dollars to keep flying, versus barely a quarter of that for F-35.

Why do we need 4 training bases? I thought that a unified training facility at Eglin AFB (along with it's reprogramming facility) as supposed to be one of the cost savings measures.

Talk about cutting you nose off to spite your face.

 

[JWCook]

actually, its pretty apparent he doesn't.

when the rigour of a response revolves around peurile comments, and when the history of response on the subject is consistently off mark, then others can start coming to their own conclusions about the quality of that commentary.

[Mod Edit: Text Deleted. See below.]

if he knows so much (and he would have to be working within Defence at a direct or affiliated warfare or comms program, not within a private company) then he knows all the other developments that are and have happened and have not been released into the public domain.

[Mod Edit: Text Deleted. Continued trolling after warning was issued.] I'll leave others to judge the real merits of what I'm postulating.

[Mod Edit: Pursuant to your request, we have judged you to be trolling and have banned you.]

 

[SpudmanWP]

Those "design changes" are all part of the SDD process and will conclude with the final Blk3 version. Those early jets are to be delivered to Eglin AFB for training usage. Their later upgrades (to Blk3) will be part of the maintainer's training. No "mistake jet" will be headed for Australia as they will all be brought up to Blk3 before they head home.

 

[Bonza]

JWCook,

If you're leaving it to others to judge the merits of your posting then it seems unusual you'd get so defensive when people do so. My advice would be to pull your head in, because regardless of how you or anyone else feels about one project or plane or another, it's quite apparent your only purpose in visiting this forum is to stir the pot on the F-35, and lacking any other constructive input, it's difficult to be sympathetic towards you or your arguments.

I wouldn't have an issue with someone simply having a negative opinion of the F-35 but your commentary is peppered with double standards and misleading statements. Long story short, it's obvious you're taking the piss, if you've any kind of brain at all then you know you're taking the piss, and I'd like you to stop doing so, please.

 

[fretburner]

Not sure I understand your point ? What does the US Senate Appropriations committee have to do with Australia Defence Aquisitions ?

I thought since the USA is not getting their supposed-to-be numbers, then partner nations are not likely to get theirs? Or am I mistaken here?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Not sure I understand your point ? What does the US Senate Appropriations committee have to do with Australia Defence Aquisitions ?

bugger all. again, RAAF via the new PD in NACC reiterated 3 weeks ago that the JSF for RAAF was $67m

of course that doesn't stop the numptys coming out with US figures (sunk costs included etc etc....) and in some cases accuse AVM's of engaging in deceptive conduct etc.....

from my perspective I'm going to put my trust in a 3 star in the ADF than an internet hero with his own agenda to push. he can always write to the Opposition if he thinks that a Snr Officer is being deceptive and engaged in Contempt of the Parliament.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I thought since the USA is not getting their supposed-to-be numbers, then partner nations are not likely to get theirs? Or am I mistaken here?

If the USA changes the number of F-35s they buy how would this effect other nations? The production schedule has all the partner nations supplied by the mid 2020s with the US orders extending the line out to 2035. So if the US choses to close the line early everyone else would have been supplied well before then.

 

[mitenotlikeit]

F-35 and it's variants

Sabre described the general consumption information that I've been exposed to. As far as replacing the A-10 Thunderbolt. I'm not convinced.

 

[swerve]

If the USA changes the number of F-35s they buy how would this effect other nations? The production schedule has all the partner nations supplied by the mid 2020s with the US orders extending the line out to 2035. So if the US choses to close the line early everyone else would have been supplied well before then.

Depends on whether the USA buys fewer at the same production rate, or (more likely IMO) fewer over much the same period, i.e. at a lower production rate.

 

[ADMk2]

Sabre described the general consumption information that I've been exposed to. As far as replacing the A-10 Thunderbolt. I'm not convinced.

It hasn't got a 30mm gun. That's the only capability A-10 brings to a fight that an F-35 doesn't. OTOH, F-35 brings a lot to a fight that an A-10 never will.

 

[mitenotlikeit]

Helicopters or warthogs ?

The A-10 is literally built around its 30-mm GE GAU-8 Avenger seven barrel cannon, the most powerful gun ever fitted to an aircraft of this class. It was designed for high-survivability with a titanium cover surrounding both the cockpit, ammunition and fuel tank. Placement of the engines decreases the infrared signature lowering it's vulnerablity to heatseeking missiles and ground fire.
I'm a big fan of this cannon. The A-10 will be replaced by attack helicopters. The F-35 will never do the intimate work that getting up close offers. Modern warfare is often waged in populated areas.

 

[jack412]

It seems Bill Sweetman has been offended by someone giving his opinion

"Since you have taken it upon yourself to attack my reporting competence, I’m taking the liberty of putting a question to you."

Message to the Readers of the Forum from the Editor - SLD Forum | SLD Forum

Even Under Secretary Mr Work, brought into question Bill's articles
Under Secretary Work Comments on His Own Tac Air Memo - SLD Forum | SLD Forum

 

[gf0012-aust]

It seems Bill Sweetman has been offended by someone giving his opinion

The man is a dinosaur - he stopped being objective after GW1/GW2 and is consumed by his own self importance.

Even though I can get a corporate rate and "free" access to AWS&T I no longer get it as it's just turned into a technology version of "The Daily Mirror"

Its a damn shame as it was a mag that it used to be able to provide balanced reporting.

 

[Bonza]

The A-10 is literally built around its 30-mm GE GAU-8 Avenger seven barrel cannon, the most powerful gun ever fitted to an aircraft of this class. It was designed for high-survivability with a titanium cover surrounding both the cockpit, ammunition and fuel tank. Placement of the engines decreases the infrared signature lowering it's vulnerablity to heatseeking missiles and ground fire.
I'm a big fan of this cannon. The A-10 will be replaced by attack helicopters. The F-35 will never do the intimate work that getting up close offers. Modern warfare is often waged in populated areas.

The F-35 is not the same aircraft as the A-10, no. Does that mean it's incapable of the CAS mission? No, it doesn't. CAS isn't necessarily about going as low and slow as you can with a great big cannon designed for killing Cold War-era main battle tanks. There's other ways to achieve the desired effects. Have a look around for information on the use of the B-1, for example, for close air support in Afghanistan, you might be surprised at what you read.

 

[colay]

The F-35 is not the same aircraft as the A-10, no. Does that mean it's incapable of the CAS mission? No, it doesn't. CAS isn't necessarily about going as low and slow as you can with a great big cannon designed for killing Cold War-era main battle tanks. There's other ways to achieve the desired effects. Have a look around for information on the use of the B-1, for example, for close air support in Afghanistan, you might be surprised at what you read.

For all its armor and redundancy, the A-10 paid a heavy price in the skies over Iraq when first employed. That armor is intended to protect against up to 23mm fire only and there are a lot of larger caliber weapons around. All sorts of SAMs will blow it out of the sky if it gets within range, w/c is a likely outcome if it insists on loitering at relatively low altitude and speeds,

 

[Bonza]

For all its armor and redundancy, the A-10 paid a heavy price in the skies over Iraq when first employed. That armor is intended to protect against up to 23mm fire only and there are a lot of larger caliber weapons around. All sorts of SAMs will blow it out of the sky if it gets within range, w/c is a likely outcome if it insists on loitering at relatively low altitude and speeds,

Agreed, which is why I don't really understand the common insistence that the F-35, or any other proposed capability for that matter, could possibly replace the A-10 for CAS. Granted it doesn't do things in the same way but thinking the A-10 occupies some sacred space simply by virtue of its design rather than looking at CAS as a requirement to be filled seems a bit off the mark to me...

 

[colay]

It seems Bill Sweetman has been offended by someone giving his opinion

"Since you have taken it upon yourself to attack my reporting competence, I’m taking the liberty of putting a question to you."

Message to the Readers of the Forum from the Editor - SLD Forum | SLD Forum

Even Under Secretary Mr Work, brought into question Bill's articles
Under Secretary Work Comments on His Own Tac Air Memo - SLD Forum | SLD Forum

What's he complaining about? seriously, he should be flattered people care enough to respond to what he prints.