Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Volkodav]

We got the MG-3s with the Leopards because that is what the vehicle came with. Why go to the effort to change it (not an easy process for the coax mount). Its the same reason the buckets had 0.30 cals for so long.

The MAG 58 (coax and loaders) was an option on the Leo I and II and I believe may actually have been interchangable with the MG3 ( I will stand corrected if someone has first hand knowledge on this).

I understand there was a plan / proposition at one point, pre LAND 106, to modify the T50 to remove the 30Cal leaving a single 50Cal and supplementing this with a pintle mount for an MG3. In some ways the 30Cal was even worse (logistically) than the other MG types as it required unique ammunition.

In my personal experience the AR was useless, jammed continually, had a fixed barrel, and that pathetic bipod! Irrespective of design faults and reliability issues the M60 was shagged by the eighties, let alone the nineties. Don’t know about the other Btns but I do know that 6 RAR replaced their M60s with BRENS in the late eighties before moving to MAG 58s when they became available and finally the Minimi.

Basically I can see there was a pretty good argument to standardise on either the MAG58 or MG3 post Vietnam.

 

[MARKMILES77]

ADM
Canada to loan ADF counter-IED equipment
16 Sep 2011

Canada will loan two Canadian systems for additional protection against improvised explosive devices (IEDs) to the ADF for use by Australian soldiers operating in Afghanistan.
The arrangement was announced by Minister for Defence Stephen Smith and Minister for Defence Materiel Jason Clare following their meeting with the Canadian Minister of National Defence Peter MacKay in Canberra on Tuesday.
The two systems comprise:
• Two HUSKY protected mobility vehicles fitted with ground penetrating radar (GPR); and
• One BUFFALO mine resistant ambush protected (MRAP) vehicle fitted with an interrogation arm and mast mounted Gyrocam camera.
The vehicles will be used by Australian Army engineers to detect explosive hazards, including mines and IEDs, to create a safe pathway for troops as they patrol Uruzgan province in Afghanistan.
The HUSKY mounted GPR provides the ability to detect explosive hazard threats from within an armoured vehicle.
It will protect troops by allowing them to detect IEDs that other detection equipment might not be able to find, especially devices with low or no metal content.
The interrogation arm is a safer way of confirming that an IED has been found.
It allows troops to make this confirmation remotely from a safe distance under armour from inside the BUFFALO vehicle. Currently, Sappers have to manually examine any suspected IED.
The high definition Gyrocam camera is mounted on a mast 8 to 10 metres above the vehicle to give a 360 degree view of the terrain.
It has a thermal imagery capability and high quality zoom to detect IED indicators from a distance.
The vehicles will be on loan for around 12 months from 2012.

Why didn't the ADF go with an interrogation arm equipped Bushmaster?
Higher protection level of the Buffalo?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The MAG 58 (coax and loaders) was an option on the Leo I and II and I believe may actually have been interchangable with the MG3 ( I will stand corrected if someone has first hand knowledge on this).

The MAG-58 was fitted to built for the Dutch Leopard 1 & 2 tanks. I’m sure it was an option for the Leopard AS1s but why pay extra for a different MG that back then (mid 1970s) wasn’t part of the Army’s inventory? Standard GPMG was the M60 and the MAG-58 wasn’t brought until the 1980s to replace the M60 only in 3 Bde. MG3 has other advantages for a tank MG like easier to change the barrels from the inside and recoil operation for sustained fire without gas residue build up in the interior workings. Plus it fired really fast bursts which looked awesome on the firing range.

I understand there was a plan / proposition at one point, pre LAND 106, to modify the T50 to remove the 30Cal leaving a single 50Cal and supplementing this with a pintle mount for an MG3. In some ways the 30Cal was even worse (logistically) than the other MG types as it required unique ammunition.

Yeah but after Somalia the .30 was retained because it was needed for operational reasons. The AS4 turret could do with a secondary weapon but the cost cutters ran that requirements exercise. The strange thing is that the .30 Brownings weren’t re-chambered for 7.62mm NATO. Just needs some new components and adjustment and you can fire the same belts as everyone else.

In my personal experience the AR was useless, jammed continually, had a fixed barrel, and that pathetic bipod!

The AR was the best weapon in the Army because it was a source of FA sears for the SLR! Lithgow designed a nice AR alterative back in the 60s but the Australian NIO (not invented overseas) syndrome meant we went for the inferior AR.

Irrespective of design faults and reliability issues the M60 was shagged by the eighties, let alone the nineties. Don’t know about the other Btns but I do know that 6 RAR replaced their M60s with BRENS in the late eighties before moving to MAG 58s when they became available and finally the Minimi.

Basically I can see there was a pretty good argument to standardise on either the MAG58 or MG3 post Vietnam.

But firing runaways on the M60 was such a fun experience…

Standardisation wasn’t such a big deal. 200 MG3s isolated in a single unit is not going to make much of a difference compared to the ~5,000 GPMGs across the rest of the Army. But a replacement for the M60 would have been nice. Though that is what the Minimi did in 1990.

As an aside there is another post war MG what if? The 5,000 odd Vickers MGs that were built in WWII and never used that had been lying around in storage until they were scrapped in the 1990s. Every now and then someone would come up with the idea of rechambering them for 7.62mm NATO and issuing them to the battalion SFMG pltns. Which actually would have reduced their performance without the heavy bullet special MG only .303 round.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Why didn't the ADF go with an interrogation arm equipped Bushmaster?
Higher protection level of the Buffalo?

Nope because its on the Buffalo, its in Afghanistan, it works and its free.

 

[Volkodav]

The MAG-58 was fitted to built for the Dutch Leopard 1 & 2 tanks. I’m sure it was an option for the Leopard AS1s but why pay extra for a different MG that back then (mid 1970s) wasn’t part of the Army’s inventory? Standard GPMG was the M60 and the MAG-58 wasn’t brought until the 1980s to replace the M60 only in 3 Bde. MG3 has other advantages for a tank MG like easier to change the barrels from the inside and recoil operation for sustained fire without gas residue build up in the interior workings. Plus it fired really fast bursts which looked awesome on the firing range.



Yeah but after Somalia the .30 was retained because it was needed for operational reasons. The AS4 turret could do with a secondary weapon but the cost cutters ran that requirements exercise. The strange thing is that the .30 Brownings weren’t re-chambered for 7.62mm NATO. Just needs some new components and adjustment and you can fire the same belts as everyone else.



The AR was the best weapon in the Army because it was a source of FA sears for the SLR! Lithgow designed a nice AR alterative back in the 60s but the Australian NIO (not invented overseas) syndrome meant we went for the inferior AR.



But firing runaways on the M60 was such a fun experience…

Standardisation wasn’t such a big deal. 200 MG3s isolated in a single unit is not going to make much of a difference compared to the ~5,000 GPMGs across the rest of the Army. But a replacement for the M60 would have been nice. Though that is what the Minimi did in 1990.

As an aside there is another post war MG what if? The 5,000 odd Vickers MGs that were built in WWII and never used that had been lying around in storage until they were scrapped in the 1990s. Every now and then someone would come up with the idea of rechambering them for 7.62mm NATO and issuing them to the battalion SFMG pltns. Which actually would have reduced their performance without the heavy bullet special MG only .303 round.

Used to do a few enemy party week ends when I was in the Uni Regt, first point of call was always to "borrow" the safety and mags from the ARs in the armoury. Strange but the base SLR with AR bits never seemed to have the feed issues I saw on the AR.

An interesting mod for the Vickers would have been to vehicle mount it and hook it up to the vehicles cooling system as the AIF did in North Africa with their Vickers / Carrier combos.

As an aside I have wondered if a .338 MMG would be feasible.

A good counter argument on adopting the MG3 throughout the ADF is the fact that the US standardised the MAG 58 as the M240 for the Abrams in the 1970s before its adoption by the USMC and Rangers as a partial M60 replacement. It is clear why we didn’t standardise on the MG3.

In my younger days I was, perhaps overly, impressed with West German equipment and thought it would have been great if we had gone on a 1970s shopping spree. We had the Leo Is but wouldn’t it have been nice to have also bought a brigades worth of Marders and re-equip 2 CAV with Lynx, perhaps throw in a few Jagdpanzer Kanones for DFS. Of course we would have adopted the G3 to replace the SLR, the HK21 to replace the AR, MG3 to replace the M60, the HK33 replacing the M16 and MP5 to replace the F1.

The crowning glory would have been to have bought the Leo II pre Desert Storm and be in a position to dispatch a Mech Brigade to assist.

Ah to be so young and naïve again.

 

[old faithful]

Used to do a few enemy party week ends when I was in the Uni Regt, first point of call was always to "borrow" the safety and mags from the ARs in the armoury. Strange but the base SLR with AR bits never seemed to have the feed issues I saw on the AR.

An interesting mod for the Vickers would have been to vehicle mount it and hook it up to the vehicles cooling system as the AIF did in North Africa with their Vickers / Carrier combos.

As an aside I have wondered if a .338 MMG would be feasible.

A good counter argument on adopting the MG3 throughout the ADF is the fact that the US standardised the MAG 58 as the M240 for the Abrams in the 1970s before its adoption by the USMC and Rangers as a partial M60 replacement. It is clear why we didn’t standardise on the MG3.

In my younger days I was, perhaps overly, impressed with West German equipment and thought it would have been great if we had gone on a 1970s shopping spree. We had the Leo Is but wouldn’t it have been nice to have also bought a brigades worth of Marders and re-equip 2 CAV with Lynx, perhaps throw in a few Jagdpanzer Kanones for DFS. Of course we would have adopted the G3 to replace the SLR, the HK21 to replace the AR, MG3 to replace the M60, the HK33 replacing the M16 and MP5 to replace the F1.

The crowning glory would have been to have bought the Leo II pre Desert Storm and be in a position to dispatch a Mech Brigade to assist.

Ah to be so young and naïve again.

Just for kicks, Ill add that 3RAR still operated short wheelbase land rovers with a Vickers .303 on a rear swivel mount and an M60 in the passenger seat up untill 1987. I fired the Vickers when I was in DFSW pl (Heavy wpns(bellys!)) The cleaning kit came with a ball pean hammer to assist with (rare) stoppages, and to move the beaten zone one click to the left or right, whack! It never failed when I used it. Had to watch out for the cocking handle taking shin off your knuckles, as it flew fwd and back with every round fired.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

An interesting mod for the Vickers would have been to vehicle mount it and hook it up to the vehicles cooling system as the AIF did in North Africa with their Vickers / Carrier combos.

If you wanted to build a cooled SFMG today you could use forced midwall cooling like on the Crusader 155mm artillery system. This is far more effective than just sitting the barrel in a pool of water. Also it has a circulation system so aren’t going to burn off water like in the old water tube MGs. It is also a lot smaller and requires less water for effect.

As an aside I have wondered if a .338 MMG would be feasible.

The .338 round does not have the kind of taper you need for reliable feeding. I remember a presento by Lapua Magnum where they talked about developing the round and they did enhance the taper, quote: “still thinking about .338 MGs”. But you would need a modified round not the current rounds used by snipers.

In my younger days I was, perhaps overly, impressed with West German equipment and thought it would have been great if we had gone on a 1970s shopping spree. We had the Leo Is but wouldn’t it have been nice to have also bought a brigades worth of Marders and re-equip 2 CAV with Lynx, perhaps throw in a few Jagdpanzer Kanones for DFS. Of course we would have adopted the G3 to replace the SLR, the HK21 to replace the AR, MG3 to replace the M60, the HK33 replacing the M16 and MP5 to replace the F1.

Well it almost happened. Krauss Maeffi were one of the bidders for Project Waler in the 1980s against a requirement of a family of vehicles: 4x4, 6x6, 8x8 and tracked. Armour Museum at Pucka have all the submission s but won’t publically release them because they reckon its commercial in confidence. If you ring ahead you can go look at them. One of these days I’ll get around to a FOI request to have all the submissions released.

Of course Waler and the integrated and mechanised 3 DIV plans of the Army in the 1980s were all cancelled because the politicos and defence ‘experts’ of the time only foresaw a future role for the Army in chasing KOPASS around the Ord River. Visionary stuff!

 

[ADMk2]

Of course Waler and the integrated and mechanised 3 DIV plans of the Army in the 1980s were all cancelled because the politicos and defence ‘experts’ of the time only foresaw a future role for the Army in chasing KOPASS around the Ord River. Visionary stuff!

Paul Dibb still thinks that. In his view of the world, anything beyond an RHIB on the side of a frigate is too "expeditionary" for Australia and the Army needs be nothing more than a light infantry force with perhaps some limited mobility in open top Unimogs and we need not train to fight anything beyond a handful of 4 man groups of Musorians.

Whilst our "high end" strike forces slaughter anything coming across the air sea gap behind them...

 

[Para 3]

Old Faithful

Just for kicks, Ill add that 3RAR still operated short wheelbase land rovers with a Vickers .303 on a rear swivel mount and an M60 in the passenger seat up untill 1987. I fired the Vickers when I was in DFSW pl (Heavy wpns(bellys!)) The cleaning kit came with a ball pean hammer to assist with (rare) stoppages, and to move the beaten zone one click to the left or right, whack! It never failed when I used it. Had to watch out for the cocking handle taking shin off your knuckles, as it flew fwd and back with every round fired.

I was there at the same time. Old greens - slouch hat and Vickers. It could have been 1914, 1944 or as it was '87.........

 

[treehuggingaj]

High Readiness Reserve

Hey Guys,

I've been looking for info regarding the HRR to no avail. I understand they are a group of higher trained Reservist and have specialist training for the aftermath of terrorist attacks or restoring public order. I'd just like to know more. Is it a company strength set up, or is it whoever has the time to have themselves on the recall list. Any special equipment? Does every capital city have one? Does it rotate through the reserve units?

Thats the sort of thing I'd like to know. If you can direct me to a site that has that sort of thing that'd be sweet. Or tell me yourself if you know and it's allowed to go public of course

Cheers

 

[Cadredave]

DPDU did stick out, particularly in the Green Zone.

Plus there are other identifiers, which distinguish Aus from both UK/US soldiers wearing similar patterns - weapons, vehicles, body-armour/load-carrying vest, national flag shoulder patches - the list goes on and on.

I suspect the Kiwi's will switch across next (not just SF), they can buy either the US or UK fabric in bulk rather than invest in a unique pattern complete with miniature 'Kiwi' birds.

Not going to happen for NZDF as we cant get the rights to the US & UK pattern so we are developing our own frabric to suit our needs for the Pacific and asia.

CD

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The ARES has two special categories: the high readiness reserve (HRR) and the reserve response force (RRF). Each ARES brigade (x 6) maintains a combat team (reinforced infantry company with engineer section, artillery observer team and medical party) of HRR soldiers. Each unit within the brigade is tasked to provide a certain element of the HRR CT, like an infantry battalion has to man an infantry platoon and so on. They are required to be trained to an ARA level, do additional annual training and commit to being available for mobilisation to conduct a deployment. They get a cash bonus for completing a tour of HRR service. The RRF is a training course in the terrorist attack security and stuff and simply qualifies soldiers for use in a crisis.

 

[treehuggingaj]

The ARES has two special categories: the high readiness reserve (HRR) and the reserve response force (RRF). Each ARES brigade (x 6) maintains a combat team (reinforced infantry company with engineer section, artillery observer team and medical party) of HRR soldiers. Each unit within the brigade is tasked to provide a certain element of the HRR CT, like an infantry battalion has to man an infantry platoon and so on. They are required to be trained to an ARA level, do additional annual training and commit to being available for mobilisation to conduct a deployment. They get a cash bonus for completing a tour of HRR service. The RRF is a training course in the terrorist attack security and stuff and simply qualifies soldiers for use in a crisis.

Ahhh so they are separate entities. I feel the Army has really got this right. A small defence force needs to embrace the chockos like this. Maybe some Bushmasters could be the icing on the cake

 

[Para 3]

Old Faithful

Just for kicks, Ill add that 3RAR still operated short wheelbase land rovers with a Vickers .303 on a rear swivel mount and an M60 in the passenger seat up untill 1987. I fired the Vickers when I was in DFSW pl (Heavy wpns(bellys!)) The cleaning kit came with a ball pean hammer to assist with (rare) stoppages, and to move the beaten zone one click to the left or right, whack! It never failed when I used it. Had to watch out for the cocking handle taking shin off your knuckles, as it flew fwd and back with every round fired.

I was around at that stage as well. Perhaps we know each other.

 

[riksavage]

Just for kicks, Ill add that 3RAR still operated short wheelbase land rovers with a Vickers .303 on a rear swivel mount and an M60 in the passenger seat up untill 1987. I fired the Vickers when I was in DFSW pl (Heavy wpns(bellys!)) The cleaning kit came with a ball pean hammer to assist with (rare) stoppages, and to move the beaten zone one click to the left or right, whack! It never failed when I used it. Had to watch out for the cocking handle taking shin off your knuckles, as it flew fwd and back with every round fired.

Wonder why they didn't convert the Vickers to 7.62mm like most Commonwealth countries did with the LMG's (former Bren's).

Where did Aus by military grade .303 ammo in the 80's - India?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Wonder why they didn't convert the Vickers to 7.62mm like most Commonwealth countries did with the LMG's (former Bren's).

No one converted Vickers SFMGs to 7.62mm NATO because it was really hard and reduced capability. Unlike converting the BREN for which all you did was get a Canadian made 7.92mm bolt (which could work with 7.62mm NATO) and a new barrel, a few tweaks and presto. Converting a Vickers would require a new belt feed and extractor to work with disintegrating link. It would also require an entire new 7.62mm round with a heavy bullet to match the long range performance of .303 Mk 8 boat tailed round.

Where did Aus by military grade .303 ammo in the 80's - India?

As I recall it was all old stuff made in Australia. Why use of the .303s eventually stopped because they ran out of ammo and the Salisbury factory that made it had been closed and bulldozed ages ago.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Where did Aus by military grade .303 ammo in the 80's - India?

NOS at Salisbury and Lithgow

 

[aussienscale]

NOS at Salisbury and Lithgow

Didn't they also manufacture it at the old maribyrnong factory in Melbourne as well ?

 

[Volkodav]

Didn't they also manufacture it at the old maribyrnong factory in Melbourne as well ?

From memory the stocks of Lee Enfields weren't actually made surplus to requirements until the late 80's and there were quite a few RAAF personel in the 80s who had never actually qualified on anything other than the old .303.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Didn't they also manufacture it at the old maribyrnong factory in Melbourne as well ?

i'd fogotten all about maribyrnong, another "outsourcing success"