Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Kirkzzy]

Just wanted to ask, with Land 400 gearing up for this decade how will this affect 7th Brigade? I was looking at Land 400 online (Defence sites, DMO, Gov sites) and have seen that they will be replacing multiple vehicle types with single platforms. (At this stage Land 400 will have a wheeled and tracked component from what I can gather)

So what does this mean for 7th Brigade? Will it be given the same vehicles as first? (infantry and armour wise)

Does the army have any future plans for the infantry in the future? Such as the infantry force structure it wants? (light, mech, motor.. will there be a shift to either one?)

 

[Raven22]

Just wanted to ask, with Land 400 gearing up for this decade how will this affect 7th Brigade? I was looking at Land 400 online (Defence sites, DMO, Gov sites) and have seen that they will be replacing multiple vehicle types with single platforms. (At this stage Land 400 will have a wheeled and tracked component from what I can gather)

So what does this mean for 7th Brigade? Will it be given the same vehicles as first? (infantry and armour wise)

Does the army have any future plans for the infantry in the future? Such as the infantry force structure it wants? (light, mech, motor.. will there be a shift to either one?)

Just quickly, Army has a plan called Beersheba that will completely change the orbat of all three manoeuvre brigades. Essentially each brigade will be identical, with an armoured regiment and two infantry battalions. The armoured regiment will consist of a tank squadron, two 'cavalry' squadrons and an 'APC' squadron. All infantry battalions will be identical and all be 'light' with no integral armoured vehicles at all. When they need lift, they will be lifted by the 'APC' squadron of the armoured regiment. As such, the armoured regiment will likely have three classes of AFVs - a tank (obviously) a cavalry fighting vehicle (think Puma) and a vanilla protected mobility vehicle (think Boxer). Of course, the exact vehicles, the mix and the whole tracked vs wheeled thing is yet to be determined.

 

[Kirkzzy]

Just quickly, Army has a plan called Beersheba that will completely change the orbat of all three manoeuvre brigades. Essentially each brigade will be identical, with an armoured regiment and two infantry battalions. The armoured regiment will consist of a tank squadron, two 'cavalry' squadrons and an 'APC' squadron. All infantry battalions will be identical and all be 'light' with no integral armoured vehicles at all. When they need lift, they will be lifted by the 'APC' squadron of the armoured regiment. As such, the armoured regiment will likely have three classes of AFVs - a tank (obviously) a cavalry fighting vehicle (think Puma) and a vanilla protected mobility vehicle (think Boxer). Of course, the exact vehicles, the mix and the whole tracked vs wheeled thing is yet to be determined.

We would have a battalion left over with that plan though, as that only requires 6 battalions (for 3 brigades), or will we be raising another battalion?

 

[ADMk2]

For those interested, there's quite a bit of online info available about Plan Beersheeba and LAND 400.

http://www.defence.gov.au/opEx/exercises/caex/pdf/caligar.pdf


http://www.aipm.com.au/forum/attachment.cfm?id=829031C0-5056-8A63-85AED7E802B42E59

 

[Kirkzzy]

For those interested, there's quite a bit of online info available about Plan Beersheeba and LAND 400.

http://www.defence.gov.au/opEx/exercises/caex/pdf/caligar.pdf


http://www.aipm.com.au/forum/attachment.cfm?id=829031C0-5056-8A63-85AED7E802B42E59

Cheers for that mate!

So from what I can gather, Plan Beersheeba is not based on your "original" formations that larger armies may have, like Armoured/Mech/Motirised/Para/Light.. etc.. units. But based around how our forces would actually deploy while also providing a much more relaxed way of rotation for the soldiers.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

So from what I can gather, Plan Beersheeba is not based on your "original" formations that larger armies may have, like Armoured/Mech/Motirised/Para/Light.. etc.. units. But based around how our forces would actually deploy while also providing a much more relaxed way of rotation for the soldiers.

It’s actually based on how the Army was organised in the 60s and 70s until some bored post VietNam War infantry soldiers started playing with their battalions (creating the para and mech inf roles) in the 80s and the Defence of Australia craziness in the 90s that lead to A21. A Plan Beersheeba brigade looks basically the same as the 1ATF deployed to VietNam except for the jungle recce capability (SASR vs armd cav) and all the modern kit.

We had a lot of detailed discussion about this in this very thread a few months ago if you scan back.

 

[Kirkzzy]

It’s actually based on how the Army was organised in the 60s and 70s until some bored post VietNam War infantry soldiers started playing with their battalions (creating the para and mech inf roles) in the 80s and the Defence of Australia craziness in the 90s that lead to A21. A Plan Beersheeba brigade looks basically the same as the 1ATF deployed to VietNam except for the jungle recce capability (SASR vs armd cav) and all the modern kit.

We had a lot of detailed discussion about this in this very thread a few months ago if you scan back.

Thanks for that, I'll check back. How will our current Artillery procurements work into the plan though, as we are only getting enough SPGs for our mech brigade.. and enough M7777s for our light (motorised) brigades. Will they be divided up?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Thanks for that, I'll check back. How will our current Artillery procurements work into the plan though, as we are only getting enough SPGs for our mech brigade.. and enough M7777s for our light (motorised) brigades. Will they be divided up?

We are getting enough SPGs for three troops (4 guns each, plus spares) and enough M777s for six troops. Which works out at one troop of SPGs and two troops of M777s per brigade.

As to being divided up this may not happen because it is cheaper to concentrate the SPGs together in one arty regt for maintenance and the longer range of the L52 gun will require a bigger live firing range than available for most Army training locations. But because of the way arty works the non arty elements of a brigade won’t really know the difference in training as to if there is a M777 or SPG providing fire support. So they can be concentrated in peace time and only receive their SPG when they deploy.

Which is different to having a tank squadron in each brigade. Cost wise like the SPG it would be cheaper to concentrate the tanks together in a single regiment but because they interact in a direct physical manner to the infantry and cavalry without the tanks in each brigade they will have difficulty training.

Also the desire to have different trades spread in multiple locations so as to not stovepipe them into a career in Darwin only has less sway on SPGs than on tanks. RAAC will probably provide the driver for each tank and the other crew positions will be very similar in training to operating the M777 gun. So gun crews will be able to go from gun type to gun type with a lot less system specific training than RAAC crews can between tanks, ASLAVs, PMVs.

 

[Kirkzzy]

We are getting enough SPGs for three troops (4 guns each, plus spares) and enough M777s for six troops. Which works out at one troop of SPGs and two troops of M777s per brigade.

I thought Beersheeba was going with four brigades? Hence in the document the ratio of 4:1.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I thought Beersheeba was going with four brigades? Hence in the document the ratio of 4:1.

I'm sure Army would like 4 brigades but it would require many more units to be raised (4th bde hq, 4th armd regt, 4th arty regt, 4th cbt engr regt, 4th comd supt regt, 8th inf bn, 4th css bn). Equipment wise it would need a 4th sqn of tanks, 7th and 8th sqns of recce vehicles, plus additional allotments of everything else as well as 6 more SPGs and 12 more M777s. But Beersheeba works with the current Army of threes (and a bit) as well.

 

[ADMk2]

I thought Beersheeba was going with four brigades? Hence in the document the ratio of 4:1.

4:1 is the ideal. Those documents I posted earlier, recognised that 4 fully equipped Brigades are un-achievable with the current level of resourcing of the ADF...

Doesn't mean we don't need it though to meet Government's requirements of Army, just that we'll have to try and do what they want, without the resources to effectively do it.

Gee, when has THAT ever been the situation in Australia?

 

[Kirkzzy]

So when is this all being implemented? As current purchases and more recent news/updates from defence hasn't really mentioned this transition which seems pretty big.

 

[Raven22]

So when is this all being implemented? As current purchases and more recent news/updates from defence hasn't really mentioned this transition which seems pretty big.

It will be implemented over a long time. The Army is still very much in the early stages of working out what it needs, then the slow process of making the change will begin. As an example, the new ACRs being mooted won't be fully operational in their new locations with their new orbat and with their new equipment until ~2026. That is 15 years away.

 

[Volkodav]

It will be implemented over a long time. The Army is still very much in the early stages of working out what it needs, then the slow process of making the change will begin. As an example, the new ACRs being mooted won't be fully operational in their new locations with their new orbat and with their new equipment until ~2026. That is 15 years away.

So when the government changes the whole thing will be labled a Labor idea and rolled back?

On a more serious note I take it the APC Sqn will be a Btn lift with a Troop per Coy and a Section per Platoon?

Will the Rec Sqn have any lift capability, or will we see a reintroduction of assault troops?

This new structure is completely different to the current, any cance the ARES will be rejigged in a similar manner or are there other plans afoot?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

So when the government changes the whole thing will be labled a Labor idea and rolled back?

I don’t think it has even gone to the Govt. at any kind of serious level. Still an Army idea, part of the process for bringing together a proposal. Like Complex Warfighting lead to the Govt. approved and funded HNA and ELF.

On a more serious note I take it the APC Sqn will be a Btn lift with a Troop per Coy and a Section per Platoon?

Yep.

Will the Rec Sqn have any lift capability, or will we see a reintroduction of assault troops?

The Recce Sqn is basically the same as the ASLAV Sqn which has a patrol of cav scouts per troop. There is some discussion about the cav scout role going to RAInf who will provide a company or so of cav scouts to each ACR.

This new structure is completely different to the current, any cance the ARES will be rejigged in a similar manner or are there other plans afoot?

The ARES RAAC units are made up of lt cav and APC sqns. The lt cav sqn is supposed to provide the tactical and collective skills required to form an armd cav sqn if more A Vehicles were available. Also since ARES units provide detachments of capability as per need there would be little impetus to have them form units made up of mixed recce, APC and even tank sqns for each brigade. Be fine having 12/16 HRL being APC and 1/15 RNSWL being recce (for example).

 

[Volkodav]

I don’t think it has even gone to the Govt. at any kind of serious level. Still an Army idea, part of the process for bringing together a proposal. Like Complex Warfighting lead to the Govt. approved and funded HNA and ELF.



Yep.



The Recce Sqn is basically the same as the ASLAV Sqn which has a patrol of cav scouts per troop. There is some discussion about the cav scout role going to RAInf who will provide a company or so of cav scouts to each ACR.



The ARES RAAC units are made up of lt cav and APC sqns. The lt cav sqn is supposed to provide the tactical and collective skills required to form an armd cav sqn if more A Vehicles were available. Also since ARES units provide detachments of capability as per need there would be little impetus to have them form units made up of mixed recce, APC and even tank sqns for each brigade. Be fine having 12/16 HRL being APC and 1/15 RNSWL being recce (for example).

Thanks Abe.

This sounds very interesting and I hope it goes ahead. As outlined it definately seems to be a much more sensible and practical structure than we have currently.

Is there going to be an Amphibious regt as well?

 

[ADMk2]

So when is this all being implemented? As current purchases and more recent news/updates from defence hasn't really mentioned this transition which seems pretty big.

LAND 400 itself is a long way off, so don't expect the wholesale reorganisation of Army any time soon.

Plus there is the politically motivated "Defence Force Posture Review" to get through as well, which may well effect how much of this plan is implemented, especially with the basing of capabilities such as the armour and artillery units, etc...

 

[Raven22]

I don’t think it has even gone to the Govt. at any kind of serious level. Still an Army idea, part of the process for bringing together a proposal. Like Complex Warfighting lead to the Govt. approved and funded HNA and ELF.

Plan Beersheba is an approved idea. The orbat for the multi-role manoeuvre brigades have already been signed off, with the minister being briefed to give his approval of the whole plan at the end of next month.

The ARES RAAC units are made up of lt cav and APC sqns. The lt cav sqn is supposed to provide the tactical and collective skills required to form an armd cav sqn if more A Vehicles were available. Also since ARES units provide detachments of capability as per need there would be little impetus to have them form units made up of mixed recce, APC and even tank sqns for each brigade. Be fine having 12/16 HRL being APC and 1/15 RNSWL being recce (for example).

Under Plan Beersheba, each ARES RAAC unit is to be able to provide a protected mobility (ie, PMV) capability for its brigade.

 

[ADMk2]

Under Plan Beersheba, each ARES RAAC unit is to be able to provide a protected mobility (ie, PMV) capability for its brigade.

Based on the Bushmaster or the planned new JLTV type vehicles?

 

[Raven22]

Based on the Bushmaster or the planned new JLTV type vehicles?

Cascaded Bushmasters.