Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Seaforth]

while Britain is in the mood to sell off its Naval ships, perhaps now would be a good time to try and get a couple of Astutes. They do seem like they would suit the RAN nicely.

An Australian Labor government is not going to buy nuclear powered subs. They would only consider that down the line if AIP proves to be impractical (and from what I've read here there is a lot of confidence in AIP).

In any event, the UK is not going to be selling any RN Astutes. PM David Cameron has now seen how useful they are to deliver cruise missiles with great accuracy and virtual impunity. In many ways a lot easier too than deploying aircraft - no need to negotiate overfly and basing rights, and less supply chain issues. No risk of a shoot down and crew hostage taking either.

If further RN vessels are sold, i reckon they are more likely to be Bay Class or T23. bigger market for them too = better sale price.

 

[Kirkzzy]

Cameron Stewart of the Australian does really annoying Australian defence reporting.

Here he blames Tenix/BAE for the AWD delays:

$8bn navy flagship founders after construction bungle | The Australian

And then here he blames the Gillard government

Labor warned of air warfare destroyer delays and blowouts | The Australian

Basically the same story, but assigns blame to who he feels like taking on that morning. The bias in the Murdoch media is appalling, when it is so patently obvious that they calbrate their stories to a political agenda.

Yes I have grown so tired of The Australian. I read it only to keep an open mind, but have difficulty looking into defence (even though they probably report it the most out of all the major papers) as they are always slamming someone at defence or talking delays. It just pisses me off, I usually read the ABC now although there is no good defence news and I can see hints of left wing bias with them... but it does not even compare to the bloody Australian.

The only good thing about News Corp and all their assets is that this global media empire was founded by an Australian.

 

[Kirkzzy]

I think Kokoda logic to buy US subs was more along the line of maintenance and support. Aus nuc subs can operate mostly in the Indian/pacific never needing to head back to the UK for nuclear maintenance and I think the idea of australian/us naval base on Australian soil was appealing.

Actually that isn't such a bad idea. More US bases. I have this pipe dream where once our LHDs come online we can get an American naval base in Aus with a MEU and possibly an LHD/LHA stationed where our LHDs are and that the US can help Australia raise its own Marine brigade modelled off the USMC.. And then having our and their marines train together, and act as rapid reaction in the pacific, freeing up the 3rd Brigade (and the rest of the army) to specialise in something else. (like going armoured/mech as the marines can take up the light infantry role.) (although this is only a pipe dream)

 

[justsomeaussie]

Slow down on your logic there mate.

 

[Raven22]

stationed where our LHDs are and that the US can help Australia raise its own Marine brigade modelled off the USMC.

Not this again.

 

[StevoJH]

Not this again.

Even taking into account nothing else, could you imagine how bad the career pathway would be for a single brigade marine corps?

Makes me wonder how the UK keep the Royal Marines as a viable career option...

 

[Bonza]

An Australian Labor government is not going to buy nuclear powered subs. They would only consider that down the line if AIP proves to be impractical (and from what I've read here there is a lot of confidence in AIP).

From what I understand, Australia hasn't shown any serious interest in moving towards AIP. I'm paraphrasing GF here but if I recall correctly a small number of AIP systems were acquired with the intention of assessing potential use on the Collins class, but following the decision not to fit the technology to any boats in the fleet, these systems were subsequently stored and did little else besides gather dust. For whatever reason, AIP was not seen as an imperative. It's blind guesswork on my part but I'd speculate that the benefits of such a system would be substantially diminished once Collins had demonstrated the capacity to meet range and capability requirements without it - particularly considering the submarine had other, more fundamental issues that demanded massive effort and expense to fix. Or maybe it was other factors, as I said I'm just guessing so I'm happy to be corrected. Hopefully GF will jump in here if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

Regarding the Collins replacement, given the projected increase in tonnage from Collins and potential for advances in fuel cell technology, it seems to me that AIP as we know it will likely prove unnecessary. It all remains to be seen, of course... technologically a lot is going to happen between now and then, to the point where I don't really think I know enough to speculate on final requirements, let alone the resulting capability.

I agree with you on the Astutes, no chance. The Royal Navy would have to be crazy to let any of them go, and besides that I don't think it's realistic to think Australia has the capacity to support two such vessels under the prevailing political climate. I hope the country can change to the extent that developing an infrastructure to support nuclear applications is a feasible option, but I don't think it's going to happen any time soon. With any luck, emerging technologies will help close some of the capability gap between nuclear and conventional submarines in the years leading up to the Collins replacement.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Makes me wonder how the UK keep the Royal Marines as a viable career option...

if they're any good its a career path to the SBS...

 

[StevoJH]

if they're any good its a career path to the SBS...

Actually, on that note, what portion of the upper ranks of the Royal Marines are/were badged(?) members of the SBS. I suppose it would be one way of selecting people for promotion when you only need a small numbers of higher ranked officers.

 

[Kirkzzy]

Only a dream.. I am quite fine with how everything is going atm

 

[wrs]

Yes I have grown so tired of The Australian. I read it only to keep an open mind, but have difficulty looking into defence (even though they probably report it the most out of all the major papers) as they are always slamming someone at defence or talking delays. It just pisses me off, I usually read the ABC now although there is no good defence news and I can see hints of left wing bias with them... but it does not even compare to the bloody Australian.

The only good thing about News Corp and all their assets is that this global media empire was founded by an Australian.

Well, who do you blame for the delays?Shouldn't the papers report such things, especially as all major projects seem to be "delayed" or do not work.
Tigre
MRH90
AWD
F35
etc

 

[Kirkzzy]

Well, who do you blame for the delays?Shouldn't the papers report such things, especially as all major projects seem to be "delayed" or do not work.
Tigre
MRH90
AWD
F35
etc

Delays should be reported, but when a paper only reports delays then there is a problem. The Australian (hell all of News Corps assets) only deliver the news they want to deliver, this makes things seem different to what they are. Pretty much one out of every three articles in their defence section is attacking the ADF. And every single time they talk about the F-35 they talk about it negatively, always calling it a "so called fifth generation fighter".

 

[wrs]

Delays should be reported, but when a paper only reports delays then there is a problem. The Australian (hell all of News Corps assets) only deliver the news they want to deliver, this makes things seem different to what they are. Pretty much one out of every three articles in their defence section is attacking the ADF. And every single time they talk about the F-35 they talk about it negatively, always calling it a "so called fifth generation fighter".

"different to what they are"
Hey, read it all, all sources, the place is a shambles. DMO etc.
Some one should call it as it is.
Form my research they are probably correct about the F35.
Apart from the fact that IOC may be 2018.
If it needs crticism let do that, and make the place work more efficiently, ad get value for the dollar.

 

[jeffb]

"different to what they are"
Hey, read it all, all sources, the place is a shambles. DMO etc.
Some one should call it as it is.
Form my research they are probably correct about the F35.
Apart from the fact that IOC may be 2018.
If it needs crticism let do that, and make the place work more efficiently, ad get value for the dollar.

If you had any idea what you were talking about you would realise how stupid it is to try and blame the current government for all of the ADFs woes. The Australia is one of the most biased "newspapers" in this country, only reporting stories that allow them to attack the ALP and mixing a fair amount of opinion to spin the few facts they present.

If you want to talk about the F35 goto the F35 thread, I think you'll find your "research" has already been covered.

If one should call it as it is, what should we call you?

Back to the real issue at hand, something really does need to be done about the current state of the shipbuilding industry in Australia. We really need to make sure that the money invested into building up the industry with local build ship projects isn't wasted as soon as the last ship is built. The obvious option is just to try and rationalise the yards and manage the build/upgrade schedule a bit better.

 

[wrs]

If you had any idea what you were talking about you would realise how stupid it is to try and blame the current government for all of the ADFs woes. The Australia is one of the most biased "newspapers" in this country, only reporting stories that allow them to attack the ALP and mixing a fair amount of opinion to spin the few facts they present.

If you want to talk about the F35 goto the F35 thread, I think you'll find your "research" has already been covered.

If one should call it as it is, what should we call you?

Back to the real issue at hand, something really does need to be done about the current state of the shipbuilding industry in Australia. We really need to make sure that the money invested into building up the industry with local build ship projects isn't wasted as soon as the last ship is built. The obvious option is just to try and rationalise the yards and manage the build/upgrade schedule a bit better.

Back to the original question who do you blame for wasting billions?
Who?
Perhaps the ALP needs to be questioned regarding incompetent decisions?
Regarding shipbuilding, you just answered your own question!

 

[Kirkzzy]

Back to the real issue at hand, something really does need to be done about the current state of the shipbuilding industry in Australia. We really need to make sure that the money invested into building up the industry with local build ship projects isn't wasted as soon as the last ship is built. The obvious option is just to try and rationalise the yards and manage the build/upgrade schedule a bit better.

This.. we should probably start talking about the state of Australian defence industry as a whole.

"Perhaps the ALP needs to be questioned regarding incompetent decisions?"
Going to attack a party for something that could have happened when the coalition was in power? Please I suggest you drop it, it seems you have forgotten to mention the delays of the Tiger, NH90, the people who chose the AWD in the first place and the people who ordered the F-35 in the first place are we to blame that party for all these delays? Seriously, drop it!

 

[t68]

This.. we should probably start talking about the state of Australian defence industry as a whole.

"Perhaps the ALP needs to be questioned regarding incompetent decisions?"
Going to attack a party for something that could have happened when the coalition was in power? Please I suggest you drop it, it seems you have forgotten to mention the delays of the Tiger, NH90, the people who chose the AWD in the first place and the people who ordered the F-35 in the first place are we to blame that party for all these delays? Seriously, drop it!

I don’t think either government can be held 100% of the blame, company that overpromise and under deliver should also be held accountable.

I have seen good company in my time go down the drain all because some people are good with numbers and accounting, but then move on to higher management and totally bugger things up because everything has a $ value attached to it.
Typical situation at work vehicle fleet is getting long in the tooth maintenance bill goes up cheaper to keep old equipment than replace, maintenance bill gets to high so cut back on the maintenance, fleet continues to breakdown and then wonders why the fleet breakdown no money sitting on the side of the road waiting for a breakdown mechanic.

GF has pointed in some circle over the years, about certain defence company and the damage that they can do it’s easy to f#%k things up than to fix them.

 

[wrs]

This.. we should probably start talking about the state of Australian defence industry as a whole.

"Perhaps the ALP needs to be questioned regarding incompetent decisions?"
Going to attack a party for something that could have happened when the coalition was in power? Please I suggest you drop it, it seems you have forgotten to mention the delays of the Tiger, NH90, the people who chose the AWD in the first place and the people who ordered the F-35 in the first place are we to blame that party for all these delays? Seriously, drop it!

You are correct in that both sides of politics have shown their incompetence.The Minister should have the competence to run Defence correctly.

The CEO, and Boards of BHP and Rio Tinto manage to provide a return for their shareholders.
Defence and DMO do not.

However the ALP is in Government now, and have not done anything to fix the problem.What does 6 enqiuries into sexual harrassement give you?

I have previously mentioned the Tigre, MRH 90, F35, all failures.AWD likely to follow.

Once again I ask the question, who is responsible for the wasted billions.
Overall the Government, however they have been given crap advice from Defence and DMO.
No question.

 

[jeffb]

Back to the original question who do you blame for wasting billions?
Who?
Perhaps the ALP needs to be questioned regarding incompetent decisions?
Regarding shipbuilding, you just answered your own question!

What billions have been wasted? What projects are you referring to? You have no idea what you are talking about but you have your heart set on blaming it on the ALP for some reason even though the Coalition is responsible for many of the contracts you are crying about.

You are a fool, if you want answers ask proper questions don't just try and cobble together some stupid "gotcha" question.

There are people on this board with far more knowledge of Defence than me, I far from answered my own question...

 

[wrs]

What billions have been wasted? What projects are you referring to? You have no idea what you are talking about but you have your heart set on blaming it on the ALP for some reason even though the Coalition is responsible for many of the contracts you are crying about.

You are a fool, if you want answers ask proper questions don't just try and cobble together some stupid "gotcha" question.

There are people on this board with far more knowledge of Defence than me, I far from answered my own question...

Are you for real?

Both parties are at fault.
It is that jian Julia is in charge at the moment.

Billions on things that do not work and years late? Start here
Tigre
MRH90
F35( to come) and the need to purchase 24 SH to plug the gap?3 Billion+?
DMO, 1.3 billion a year in admin to fail to delver, every year, after year
etc
Facts Cobba