Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates

Swampfox157

New Member
It really depends on the roles the PAF wants/needs filled. If memory serves, the S-211 is used by the PAF both for advanced jet training and ground attack/CAS missions. If that is where the PAF currently feels a 'need', then neither radars, SAM systems or transport will do.

Given the current state of the Philippines Army, Navy and Air Force, I can certainly understand them needing a whole range of equipment, but also being quite restricted in terms of what can purchased and operated.

With that in mind, something like ex-USAF/USN/USMC A-1 Skyraiders taken from AMARC and possibly given some moderization might be feasible. The moderizations I would consider 'reasonable' for the PAF would cover things like improvements to nav and comm systems, as well as some limited self-defence measures like flares and perhaps chaff.

This would provide a significant CAS and ground attack capability, yet should not have as high an operational cost as most jets do, being a very rugged piston-engined aircraft.

-Cheers
I don't even think there ARE any Spads left at AMARC. I had a source for the inventory as of 3/29/2011 or a similar date, but it appears that the site went down (404). T-37Cs, each with 2 500lb-class hardpoints for gun pods or rockets, could be an option. Otherwise, KT-1s look great, especially since the KT-1C has a FLIR pod. This should give it limited night-attack capability, and a HUGE advantage over insurgents with limited NVGs at best. The KT-1 costs literally a tenth as much as a Hawk, so it's extremely affordable for a light-attack bird.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I don't even think there ARE any Spads left at AMARC. I had a source for the inventory as of 3/29/2011 or a similar date, but it appears that the site went down (404). T-37Cs, each with 2 500lb-class hardpoints for gun pods or rockets, could be an option. Otherwise, KT-1s look great, especially since the KT-1C has a FLIR pod. This should give it limited night-attack capability, and a HUGE advantage over insurgents with limited NVGs at best. The KT-1 costs literally a tenth as much as a Hawk, so it's extremely affordable for a light-attack bird.
Funny, I would have imagined at least a few of them would have made it to AMARC. There were over 3,000 of them produced in various versions between 1945 - 1957. While I agree that systems like FLIR/EO, NVGs and others could potentially benefit the PAF, it is also possible that such systems are too expensive/complicated for the PAF to operate currently, particularly from a CAS/COIN asset which might find itself on the receiving end of trashfire, etc.

Granted the Philippines in the past faced a large scale counter insurgency threat but at present is there still a need for additional COIN aircraft to add to what currently is operated?

What should receive funding first - a small batch of MPA's fitted with with a surface search radar and a FLIR to patrol the country's territorial waters or a turboprop like the KT-1 that can be used as a basic trainer and a COIN platform or a jet LIFT that can also double up as a COIN aircraft and as a point interceptor - fitted with Sidewinders? As the Philippines Armed Forces has a lot of urgent requirements that need to be addessed and a severe funding shortage, I'm very curious to what the Philippinos here feel should be addressed first.
I definately agree that MPA's fitted with sea/surface search radars and EO systems (not necessarily FLIR) would benefit the AFP, both in terms of patrolling EEZ and perhaps more importantly the home waters. In addition, properly kitted out MPA's have found valuable use for surveillance over land as well.

What I am not so certain of is just how much the PAF feels it still needs COIN/CAS capabilities, and whether the current capabilities are adequate to meet those needs. In addition, whether or not there really are sufficient resources for the PAF to purchase and just as importantly maintain and operate small to mid-sized MPA. As an example here, Indonesian production of CN-235 MPA for a recent South Korean order cost just under $24 mil. USD per aircraft, but the actual operational and maintenance costs would then require additional funding in order for the MPA's to be put to use. I am not sure that the PAF could afford to do that, particuarly since the Navy's flagship and largest vessel is still an ex-USN DE launched during WWII, which does quite well to illustrate just how much aged/aging equipment the AFP should replace.

-Cheers
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Hi Todjaeger,

What I am not so certain of is just how much the PAF feels it still needs COIN/CAS capabilities, and whether the current capabilities are adequate to meet those needs.
Given the current status of the insurgency problem, I'm not sure if additional financial resources should be allocated for purchasing more COIN aircraft to add to what currently is operated. Does the threat justify it? Talks are currently been held with the MILF and if I'm not mistaken, also with the NPA. COIN aircraft certainly have a vital role to play but even if the insurgency problem was to flare up again, the problem here is that the MILF tends to operate in small groups, amongst the local population, in rough, forrested terrain, so finding and targetting them with aircraft may be problematic.

What you mentioned about having adequate resources to mantain any future aircraft certainly holds very true as we often forget that a large part of the defence budget in any country is already allocated for mantaining current equipment and for salaries. Out of curiosity why do you feel that FLIR's don't necessarily have to be fitted to any future MPA's?

I am not sure that the PAF could afford to do that, particuarly since the Navy's flagship and largest vessel is still an ex-USN DE launched during WWII, which does quite well to illustrate just how much aged/aging equipment the AFP should replace.
The newest ships in service are the 3 former-RN Peacok class and the former USS Cyclone. The rest of the fleet has an average age of 45 years.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Given the current status of the insurgency problem, I'm not sure if additional financial resources should be allocated for purchasing more COIN aircraft to add to what currently is operated. Does the threat justify it? Talks are currently been held with the MILF and if I'm not mistaken, also with the NPA. COIN aircraft certainly have a vital role to play but even if the insurgency problem was to flare up again, the problem here is that the MILF tends to operate in small groups, amongst the local population, in rough, forrested terrain, so finding and targetting them with aircraft may be problematic.
I freely admit it has been some time since I paid particular attention to the Phillipines. That said, it has been my impression that in addition to the actual various insurgency groups operating againat the AFP, there are a number of areas where local control at the hands of various clans/warlord is much stronger than that of the AFP and central government. A political/social environment like that, is ripe for clashes between a central government and competing regional/familial power factions. Not the sort of situation I would like to see happen, but also not the sort of thing I feel can be ruled out either. And again, I am not certain just how much the AFP or PAF feels it needs COIN aircraft for. In terms of suitability, even aircraft using older tech like the A-1 Skyraider can provide a significant boost in the Phillipines. The US and ARVN used them with devastating effect extensively for CAS, and in environments not all that different than can be found in many areas within the Phillipines.

What you mentioned about having adequate resources to mantain any future aircraft certainly holds very true as we often forget that a large part of the defence budget in any country is already allocated for mantaining current equipment and for salaries. Out of curiosity why do you feel that FLIR's don't necessarily have to be fitted to any future MPA's?
The issue I have with FLIR for MPA is that EO sensors belly-mounted in turret balls would be better IMO. FLIR itself is an EO IR sensor which has a fixed field of view, in order for different areas to be scanned, the aircraft has to be pointed in different directions. Having an EO sensor (with visual, IR, laser and possibly AESA) fitted into a turret would allow the EO station operator to change the field of view without requiring the aircraft to change heading. Not only is that more efficient for flight ops, but it can also reduce interferring with other onboard sensors/scans. And the reason I keep speaking of EO, is that for such scans, visuals, video and photography are all useful, not just IR spectrum sensors.

The newest ships in service are the 3 former-RN Peacok class and the former USS Cyclone. The rest of the fleet has an average age of 45 years.
True, and the situation should improve somewhat as the Phillipine Navy should be receiving three ex-USCG Hamilton-class High Endurance Cutters to replace the Cannon-class DE as flagship, amongst other vessels.

-Cheers
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Todjaeger, have you seen this? Has a lot interesting info on the role aircraft have played in the country's counter insurgency campaifns.

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=148&Itemid=47

For a country that has a requirement for a COIN aircraft to operate against insurgents who are mainly armed with small arms, wouldn't the Pucara be a better option than a Tucano or a KT-1? Granted it will be more expensive to operate but it has a bigger payload capability and longer endurance. The plus side I suppose of operating a single engined turboprop like the KT-1 is that in addition for COIN duties, it can also be used as a basic trainer.
 
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gforce

New Member
It's already 2011 but the Philippine Air Force still doesn't have any fighter jets nor any current plans to purchase fighter jets!

AFP to buy 12 air, naval assets
By Alexis Romero (The Philippine Star) Updated April 29, 2011 12:00 AM Comments (28) View comments

MANILA, Philippines - The military will spend about P11 billion for 12 naval and air assets.

These are three naval patrol vessels, three patrol helicopters, two search and rescue helicopters, and four fixed-wing aircraft, according to Brig. Gen. Roy Deveraturda, Armed Forces Modernization Program Management Office chief.

All the aircraft would be brand new, while the Navy vessels would be refurbished, he added.

Deveraturda said the acquisitions will enhance the military’s patrolling and disaster response capabilities.

“These assets will have many uses,” he said.

“We can use them not only in times of war and threat but also in times of calamity.” Deveraturda said funding for these assets will come from the P8-billion proceeds from the Malampaya natural gas project in Palawan and the P3-billion modernization outlay.

“These assets are deployable anywhere,” he said.

“For now, we are focused on areas that we need to secure like the western Sulu Sea and waters off Palawan. Our mandate is to secure our 200-mile economic zone.”

The military hopes to complete the acquisition within a year. Technical working groups are now determining the specifications of the assets to be bought.

Meanwhile, two more Hamilton-class cutters will be acquired from the United States.

Armed Forces spokesman Commodore Miguel Rodriguez said the two ships are on top of the cutter to be delivered by the US Coast Guard in August.

“We are looking at acquiring more Hamiltons in the future,” he said.

“The acquisition (of the two ships) is still being discussed. It is in the exploratory stage.”

Rodriguez said the two cutters are no longer used by the US Coast Guard.

“This is an opportunity because the United States will decommission these ships, and then these are being offered to other countries,” he said.

“So we will compete with other countries to buy (them).”

The decommissioned ships are still functioning well even if they are older than the other US water assets, Rodriguez said.

Each Hamilton-class cutter costs about P1.2 billion.

The acquisition of the cutters will be bankrolled by the AFP modernization fund.

A cutter is a high-speed vessel that can cut through waves.

If the acquisition pushes through, the ships would be the first Hamilton-class cutters in the Navy’s inventory.

The US Coast Guard cutter, which is about 380 feet long, would become the Navy’s largest ship. The Navy’s current flagship and largest surface combatant, the BRP Rajah Humabon, is 308 feet long.

Rodriguez said the US cutter that will arrive in August would be stationed in Palawan to secure the natural resources, including oil deposits, in the area.

“Right now, our focus is on our natural resources in the Palawan area,” he said.

“We are trying to (set up) defenses as we transition from internal defense to external defense which is actually the primary role of the Armed Forces.”

Navy data showed that out of the 53 patrol ships in the inventory, only 26 are operational.

These patrol ships are of the average age of 36.4 years. The bigger of these vessels – the mine sweeper frigates and patrol craft escorts – are 66 and 67 years old.

Only three of the seven Navy transport vessels are operational and are already 15 years old.

The non-operational vessels are 64 years old. On the other hand, only four of the 10 Navy auxiliary ships are operational. From among the 32 small craft, 23 are operational and are of an average age of 21.3 years.

On Monday, Energy Secretary Jose Rene Almendras said President Aquino will issue an executive order allotting P8 billion from the Malampaya funds to secure energy-related projects, including new exploration by investors off Palawan.

“We need to ensure the security of all these new exploration areas,” he said.

“So thereby we did recommend and said we need to augment the security in all of these service contracts that have been previously awarded.”

The AFP Modernization Act, which took effect in 1995, has given the military the opportunity to modernize in 15 years with a total fund of P331 billion.

More than16 years have passed since the law was enacted but critics said the AFP is not even close to a modern battle force.

The delay in the implementation of the law has been attributed to lack of state funds.

Deveraturda said of the P331 billion provided by law, only P53 billion have been allotted and only about P33 billion spent.

“If we would be asked, we want some adjustments to hasten the process,” he said.

“It would be good if we can complete the process in one year,” he added.

Deveraturda said the law requires that a failure of bidding be declared before they can conduct a negotiated bid.

“We want to change the procedures so we can fast-track the procurement processes and at the same time protect the funds (from corruption),” he said.
Chinese jets buzz PAF patrol planes
By Jaime Laude (The Philippine Star) Updated May 20, 2011 12:00 AM Comments (290) View comments

Manila, Philippines - Chinese jet fighters reportedly buzzed two Philippine Air Force (PAF) planes on a routine reconnaissance patrol on Thursday last week at the vicinity of the Kalayaan Island Group, which is part of the disputed Spratlys.

Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) chief Gen. Eduardo Oban Jr. said yesterday that the military is still validating the report, but sources have confirmed the recent intrusion into Philippine air space by Chinese jet fighters.

“We are validating reports pertinent to that,” Oban told journalists after attending a forum sponsored by the government-run Philippine Information Agency at Camp Aguinaldo in Quezon City.

He said if verified, the AFP would not view the incident as an act of bullying or provocation on the part of the Chinese, saying that the matter could be addressed through diplomatic channels.

Oban stressed that this would not deter the AFP from enforcing its mandate to patrol the country’s skies and territorial waters.

He said the air patrols are intended to protect the nation’s territorial integrity as well as its maritime resources against violators of the country’s maritime laws.

A military source said that two OV-10 Broncos were on a routine reconnaissance patrol over the Kalayaan Islands when two Chinese MIG-29 Fulcrums appeared and buzzed over the two PAF planes.

“That incident happened on Thursday last week over the Reed Bank Basin,” the source said.

Another source said that the two OV-10 planes initially monitored two unidentified intruding fighter jets.

While the pilots wanted to challenge the intruders, they had to back off and maintain their course as their planes do not have the capability to engage the Chinese jets.

The two Chinese planes then flew closer towards the two OV-10s.

Maj. Gen. Juancho Sabban, commander of the Palawan-based Western Command (Wescom), did not return calls and text messages seeking to confirm or deny the recent air encounter.

Two months ago, two Chinese gunboats harassed a Philippine research vessel commissioned by the Department of Energy (DOE) while conducting studies also at the Reed Bank.

The Reed Bank is well within Philippine territory and Navy gunboats were deployed to secure the DOE research vessel M/V Venture.

Reed Bank is within the country’s 320 kilometers exclusive economic zone, but the area is also being claimed by China and Vietnam.

This area is part of the Kalayaan Island Group that is being claimed by the Philippines in the disputed Spratlys.

The Spratly Islands are being claimed in whole or in part by the Philippines, China, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia, and Taiwan.

Initial exploration of the Reed Bank by the DOE revealed that the area contains about 3.4 trillion cubic feet of natural gas and 440 million barrels of oil.

The two white-colored Chinese gunboats with the markings No. 71 and No. 75 tried to drive away the DOE research vessel from the Reed Bank.

The incident prompted the Philippine government to file a diplomatic protest but this was simply dismissed by the Chinese government, saying the area is their territory.

The Chinese embassy in Manila declined yesterday to comment on the report that Chinese jet fighters buzzed over two PAF near the Kalayaan Island Group.

Ethan Sun, deputy chief of political section and spokesperson of the embassy, said the report was still being verified.

“I can’t comment on the report that’s being verified,” Sun said.

The Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) summoned in March the Chinese ambassador and lodged a diplomatic protest against the harassment of a vessel owned by the Department of Energy by two Chinese Navy gunboats while conducting maritime research off the disputed Spratly Islands.

On the other hand, the Chinese air intrusion happened three days before the US Strike Carrier Group I headed by nuclear powered aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson dropped anchor at Manila Bay for a regular port call.

In a sponsored dinner aboard the Carl Vinson, the vessel where the last rites for slain al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden were conducted when the carrier was in the Arabian Sea recently, US Ambassador Harry Thomas Jr. gave assurance that his government is ready to stand by the Philippines if the country’s security is threatened.

“We do not even know if the sudden swing of USS Carl Vinson in the country has something to do with last Thursday’s incident in the South China Sea,” a military official said.

Col. Arnulfo Marcelo Burgos Jr., AFP Public Information Office (PIO) chief, said the Philippines is a 58-year-old mutual defense partner of the US and as such, both have long maintained force readiness and interoperability.

“The mutual support and assistance both countries provide to each other contributes largely to strengthening our capabilities as military institutions,” Burgos said.

Burgos said that the Philippines and the US have enjoyed a long-time friendship, a relationship further bolstered by the Mutual Defense Treaty that mandates the US and the Philippines to come and protect each other in the event of external threat or aggression.

Earlier, AFP spokesman Commodore Jose Miguel Rodriguez described the visit of the USS Carl Vinson as a long-approved routine port call.

He also said that the port call of the aircraft carrier, which is leaving today, is also in line with the ongoing US military force projection and naval diplomacy in the region.

Meanwhile, the State Councilor and Minister of National Defense of China will arrive in Manila for a five-day official goodwill visit beginning tomorrow upon the invitation of the Philippine government, the Chinese Embassy said yesterday.

At the invitation of Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin, Gen. Liang Guanglie will head a delegation for an official goodwill visit to the Philippines from 21 to 25 May 2011.

During his visit, Liang will call President Aquino and hold talks with Gazmin.

“The visit is expected to further advance China-Philippines friendly relations, specifically military exchanges and pragmatic cooperation, thus enriching and enhancing the strategic and cooperative relationship between our two countries,” the Embassy said.

The Philippines is the third leg of Liang’s Southeast Asia trip, which started from 15 May.

Liang visited Singapore and Indonesia as the guest of Singaporean Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Defense Teo Chee Hean and Indonesian Minister of Defense Purnomo Yusgiantoro. With Pia Lee-Brago
Armed Forces to get P5-B military hardware
abs-cbnNEWS.com
Posted at 05/19/2011 8:12 PM | Updated as of 05/20/2011 7:54 AM

MANILA, Philippines - The military will get more than P5 billion worth of military hardware and equipment this year, Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) chief Gen. Eduardo Oban said on Thursday.

The acquisition is part of the military's modernization program, Oban added.

"For 2011, we have 13 projects that are deliverables. Many of these 13 projects are for the Philippine Navy," Oban said in a press briefing in Quezon City.

Oban said 6 of the projects will benefit the Navy. These include the delivery of upgraded ships, a landing craft utility, troop carriers for Marines, and radios.

Meanwhile, Army troops will get night-fighting equipment and a civil-military operations audio visual system.

The Air Force, on the other hand, will receive an unspecified number of MD-520 attack helicopters, basic trainer aircraft, combat utility helicopters, and aerial cameras.

The AFP Medical Center's operating room is also set for upgrade this year, according to Oban.

"If we get these, they will enhance our capability particularly patrolling our territorial waters and improving our logistical platforms in the delivery of supplies needed by our troops throughout the country," he said.

The projects do not include a Hamilton class ship that was acquired from the U.S. Coast Guard last Friday.

The ship, which is due to be delivered to the Navy in August, was acquired through the Foreign Military Sales program.

Oban said the cutter ship will be deployed to Palawan to patrol the country's maritime resources in the area.

Palawan is near the disputed Spratly Islands in the South China Sea that is being claimed by the Philippines, China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Brunei, and Vietnam.

Oban said the military had already relayed its intention to the U.S. to acquire 2 more Hamilton-class ships, which are being phased out by Washington.

"We just have to wait for their reply, if there are available in their inventory and if they are going to give it to us," he said.
 

Swampfox157

New Member
I'm not so sure that the PAF can afford aircraft able to challenge Fulcrums. If only the Clark lease hadn't expired (or whatever it was that caused the USAF to pull out)
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Things might change due to last weeks incident over the disputed Spratly Islands where 2 OV-10 Broncos of the PAF were buzzed...
Were the Bronco's actually ''buzzed'' or did they just happen to be in the area on a routine patrol the same time the foreign jets were there? If I recall there was an incident in the late 90's when a pair of Bronco's met a pair of RMAF Hawks over the same area. As China does not operate jets from its possessions in the Spratleys there 's a good chance they were flying from Hainan.

In the Inquirer News article, there is mention of the PAF being unable to detect foreign aircraft. There might not be any dedicated military air search radars in the area but aren't they any radars used to detect commercial flights?
 

ed famie

New Member
It's already 2011 but the Philippine Air Force still doesn't have any fighter jets nor any current plans to purchase fighter jets!
I read the news the General Oban is still validating the report where two chinese Mig 29 buzzed the two OV-10 Bronco of the Phil Airforce, just talk to the two pilots of the OV-10 General and then tell the whole nation that we cannot defend the spratlys, you can just imagine the nervousness of the two filipino pilots when confronted by advance fighter jet lake the Mig 29, just two air to air missile then those two filipino pilots are dead
 

SASWanabe

Member
i think the Malaysians are in the process of retiring their Mig-29s.

dont forget Burma has a couple aswel, tho i dont think they claim any of the Spratlys.

could just be that the Phillippine pilots just confused their aircraft types... russian A/C do tend to look alot alike
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
i think the Malaysians are in the process of retiring their Mig-29s.
Malaysia still operates about 10 Fulcrums. The RMAF has no permanent fighter presence in East Malaysia but does rotate fighter detachments there, either Hornets, Hawks or Fulcrums.

dont forget Burma has a couple aswel, tho i dont think they claim any of the Spratlys.
Myanmmar is not a claimant in the Spratleys. It is very unlikely that the jets were from Myanmmar as the area in which the jets were seen is very way off from Burma and is beyond the range of Fulcrums even with drop tanks..
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
i think the Malaysians are in the process of retiring their Mig-29s.

dont forget Burma has a couple aswel, tho i dont think they claim any of the Spratlys.

could just be that the Phillippine pilots just confused their aircraft types... russian A/C do tend to look alot alike
The Burmese air force does not have the resources or the capability to send fulcrums to buzz PAF's OV-10s. The air craft could be Chinese flankers though.
 

kvnsoon

New Member
Malaysia is the only Fulcrum operator among the Spratlys Claimants, so maybe it was Malaysian patrolling on disputed islands. But then again, maybe our pilots made a mistake in identifying the aircrafts.
 

ManilaBoy

Banned Member
The service is due to received the 1st 4 batch of the 8 combat utility helicopter procurement project from Poland's PZL Swidnik in November...


http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/2011/05/philippines-armed-forces-due-to-receive.html

It's time for the A.F.P. to buy some new equipment and armaments

YES, it definitely is and is long been overdue! The service recently received 18 brand new SF-260's trainers and is also getting 2 additional C-130's by the end of this year...
 
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Belesari

New Member
wasnt the base destroyed by a volcano or something?
"Many months before the expiration of the Military Bases Agreement of 1947 intense negotiations between the governments of the United States and the Philippines began. These negotiations resulted in the Treaty of Friendship, Peace and Cooperation between the United States and the Republic of the Philippines. This would have extended the lease of the American bases in the Philippines.

On September 13, 1991, the Philippine Senate rejected the ratification of this treaty, citing a number of reasons for the rejection. This was a devastating blow to the Aquino administration, who were strongly pro-treaty and even called for a referendum by the Filipino people; a move that was declared unconstitutional."


U.S. Naval Base Subic Bay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Malaysia is the only Fulcrum operator among the Spratlys Claimants, so maybe it was Malaysian patrolling on disputed islands. But then again, maybe our pilots made a mistake in identifying the aircrafts.
The RMAF Fulcrum squadron had just finished a week of FPDA exercises, so I would be surprised if had been deployed to East Malaysia. There has been no news in the Malaysian press about the incident, unlike in the mid-1990's when 2 RMAF Hawks came across 2 PAF Broncos, which received press coverage.
 

ed famie

New Member
China doesn't operate mig 29's, could have been malaysian though.
yes china doesn,t operate Mig 29, i think the OV-10 pilot was confused because of there high speed, china is operating 76 Sukhoi SU-27 and 100 Sukhoi SU-30 according to wikipedia.org

The Burmese air force does not have the resources or the capability to send fulcrums to buzz PAF's OV-10s. The air craft could be Chinese flankers though.
yes, it might be the chinese flankers, for past months they are harrassing Philippine vessels who are conducting a survey for oil exploration

YES, it definitely is and is long been overdue! The service recently received 18 brand new SF-260's trainers and is also getting 2 additional C-130's by the end of this year...
I read in Inquirer.com that the Phil. Air force is planning to replace the S-211 jet Trainer, do you know what kind of trainer jets they plan to acquire?
 
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