Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter SABRE
- Start date
May 26, 2011: Indonesia buys $400M of Korean jets
$400 million / 16 = $25 million per T-50 Golden Eagle.
This will allow the Philippine Air Force to buy Indonesia's BAE Hawks at a cheaper rate as S-211 replacement. A brand new BAE Hawk cost $29.5 million. The BAE Hawk is used by the Royal Air Force, and other air forces, as either a jet trainer or a low-cost combat aircraft.
The BAE Hawk is still in production with over 900 sold to 18 customers around the world.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Which Hawk ? The Mk 53 ? Good god mate those thing are near end of their life cycle. Not much different than your S-211. Those thing from early 80's as replacement for Czech Aero L-29. The Hawk Mk 109 that comming in the 90's as supplement for Hawk 209 is actually LIFT but wired in Indonesia services more as Survailance and Ground Attack assets, thus being keep together with hawk 209 until 2020.
If you want PAF to find second hand Hawk, then try to get ROKAF Hawk, It's Hawk Mk 60's family, it's newer and better condition than TNI-AU Mk 53 and ROKAF are not using them anymore since they already switch their LIFT asset to T-50. I read from Korean Media, that ROKAF try to offered it to TNI-AU, as stop-gap offered until the T-50 ordered come. But I hear TNI-AU choose to keep the Hawk Mk-53 until T-50 come in end 2012 or early 2013. I heard those ROKAF Hawk still have considerable flying hours left.
Finland has a number of Hawks for sale, which have been refurbished by Patria.
I wish the Phil. Air Force will not buy again a second hand trainer jets, The Pilots deserves a brand new Trainer jets, and there are trainer jets that are not so expensive but reliable and brand newMay 26, 2011: Indonesia buys $400M of Korean jets
$400 million / 16 = $25 million per T-50 Golden Eagle.
This will allow the Philippine Air Force to buy Indonesia's BAE Hawks at a cheaper rate as S-211 replacement. A brand new BAE Hawk cost $29.5 million. The BAE Hawk is used by the Royal Air Force, and other air forces, as either a jet trainer or a low-cost combat aircraft.
The BAE Hawk is still in production with over 900 sold to 18 customers around the world.
Like what reliable but cheap, brand new Trainer Jet are you thinking of? I'd go for the Yakovlev Yak-130 if the Philippine Air Force can spare $15 million for each aircraft but they can only afford less.
Netherlands Announces Deep Military Cuts
Chile To Finalize F-16 Deal With Netherlands
$278 million / 18 = $15.44 million per Dutch F-16 in 2009 which is a $5.17 million increase when Chile 1st bought used F-16s from the Netherlands in 2006. The cost may be higher in 2011/12 if we follow the trend, it may reach as much as $21 million (P945 million Phl pesos) per 2nd hand F-16?
The Soko G-4 Super Galeb is a good trainer aircraft as i read in Wikipedia .com it cost only 4.5 million dollars and in their research it is comparable to BAE Hawk, Dassault Alpha trainer Jet, Aero L-39 Albatros, CASA C101 and importanly it is more good than S-211 trainer jets
Nice find there mate! but the cost was in 2002, how much will it cost by now?
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
A number of different aircraft have been suggested for fast jet trainer service within the Philippine Air Force. What would make sense to me, before we travel any further down this path, is to consider what the AFP needs, what roles are most important, and what is affordable.
At present, the current fast jet trainers in AFP service are subsonic S-211, which can perform come ground attack/CAS missions as well as jet training. Additionally, the AFP does not have any fast jet aircraft apart from the jet trainers, i.e. no fighter or strike aircraft, which pilots would need to be trained up to and transitioned into.
All of this does sort of make me wonder why there is such interest in the AFP getting more (or newer) jet trainers? Now if the S-211 performed critical training and/or combat roles, and were approaching the end of their useful service life due to maxing out airframe flight hours, and/or accident/battle damage, that would be one thing.
At this point though, and given what seem to be real limitations in terms of funding available for new acquisitions and training/sustaining said acquisitions, how does more jet trainers stack up against AFP needs for fixed and rotary-wing lift, or ground surveillance and MPA?
As a few of us have observed, the AFP has a number of needs, even more wants, and a limit to how big a budgetary 'pie' is has, which then needs to sliced up to provide for what the AFP has, needs and wants. Therefore, what sort of things do people consider a priority, and how much of a priority compared to other items/capabilities?
-Cheers
At present, the current fast jet trainers in AFP service are subsonic S-211, which can perform come ground attack/CAS missions as well as jet training. Additionally, the AFP does not have any fast jet aircraft apart from the jet trainers, i.e. no fighter or strike aircraft, which pilots would need to be trained up to and transitioned into.
All of this does sort of make me wonder why there is such interest in the AFP getting more (or newer) jet trainers? Now if the S-211 performed critical training and/or combat roles, and were approaching the end of their useful service life due to maxing out airframe flight hours, and/or accident/battle damage, that would be one thing.
At this point though, and given what seem to be real limitations in terms of funding available for new acquisitions and training/sustaining said acquisitions, how does more jet trainers stack up against AFP needs for fixed and rotary-wing lift, or ground surveillance and MPA?
As a few of us have observed, the AFP has a number of needs, even more wants, and a limit to how big a budgetary 'pie' is has, which then needs to sliced up to provide for what the AFP has, needs and wants. Therefore, what sort of things do people consider a priority, and how much of a priority compared to other items/capabilities?
-Cheers
The Philippine Air Force needs trainer jets as part of their plan to acquire fighter jets in the near future. They follow this combat pilot training program:
1. Classroom lecture and Flight Simulators
2. Basic Propeller-driven aircraft training (Cessna T-41 Mescalero)
3. Advanced or Turboprop-driven aircraft training (Aermacchi SF-260)
4. Jet-powered aircraft training (Aermacchi S-211)
5. Actual fighter jet training (MRF)
But because the PAF wasn't able to acquire an immediate replacement to the retired Northrop F-5 due to 1997 Asian Financial Crisis, they used the Aermacchi S-211 and the North American OV-10 Bronco for air defense and conducting air patrols.
In May 2010, Air Force chief Lt. Gen. Oscar Rabena announced that the PAF was ordered to submit generic types of advanced jet trainers that will replace the S-211. According to Gen. Rabena, they are choosing models from Europe and Asia, and following evaluation, the Department of National Defense will open bidding for the purchase of such aircraft.
That's the very reason why they are replacing the S211. If they cannot get a real fighter jet anytime soon then the next trainer jet should be better than the S211 in terms of training and combat use.
the Philippine peso to U.S. dollar on the year 2002 is not so big difference on the Philippine peso to U.S. dollar on 2011, most of the year they play between 40- 45 pesos, if you multilply it by two it becomes 9 million dollar each if it increase 100%, but it is impossible that the increase is like that
I agree with you, the trainer jet of the Philippine Air Force must be better than the old S-211 trainer jets
What I meant was inflation because all modern aircraft increase their unit cost as time goes by compared to older aircraft. The F-16 for example was around $18 million in 1998 but now it is more than double the price for a brand new unit.
Yes it's true, an F-16 C/D on 1998 cost 18.8 million dollars, so for almost 13 years the F-16 has double the price specially the E/F version, thats what i mean my friend when i said about the G-4 Super Galeb in 2002 is price at 4.5 million dollars in 2011 it might be 9 million dollars but it still good for Phil Air Force as a training jets, have a nice day!
We will park the Super Galeb G-4 as possible S-211 replacement and propose it on local Philippine defense forums hoping the DND can take a glimpse at it. :coffee
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Before doing so, I would double check and see when the last Galeb G-4 was produced. To my understanding, Serbia has been upgrading some of the aircraft which it currently owns, but the aircraft is otherwise out of production and has been for some time.
To my mind, it would not make sense for 2nd hand, out of production jet trainers which might end up with a mix of eastern and western avionics to be purchased by the Philippine Air Force, even if their initial purchase price is low. 2nd hand aircraft, which are out of production and have a mixed origin for avionics is going to be inordinately expensive to support and maintain.
When considering which platform(s) to purchase, consideration has to be paid to the raise/train/sustain costs. In addition, whatever is being considered also needs to have a place within the force structure and systems construct of the purchasing force.
So far, there seems to have neen a number of suggestions for fast jet trainers, but little consideration of what comes after that. Yes, the Philippine Air Force does seem to want to get back into the 'fast jet' game with a replacement for the F-5, but has there been any inkling of what sort of timeframe is in mind or the number of platforms desired? What about the desired capabilities of the chosen platform(s) or the expected budgetary allocation to purchase and then operate/support the force?
What might work a bit better, is if a suggestions were made regarding both a jet trainer and then the follow-on fighter aircraft, along with some idea of numbers desired for training and then operations, and what a likely cost would be.
-Cheers
niftyDolphine
New Member
There should also be a plan to maintain the jet fighters. I remember when the F-5s couldn't be used because there were no more spare parts. Buying jet fighters should be a long term plan, other posts were right that it should include simulation time n other trainer aircraft. And don't forget ammunition, which is also costly.
I agree with you, that's why if the philippine government plan to purchase a jet fighter and a trainer jet, they must be brand new if possible so that they would not be hard-up in finding spare parts, and ammunition too is important and projecting the power of a fighter jets including other modern instrument in a jet