Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[dragonfire]

Also..


L&T a publicly held listed company mainly into engineering, had fabricated the hull for the INS Arihant and has as per reports a while back completed a second hull in the same class and is working on the third hull. They did this in Hazaria (iirc in Gujarat). They could be considered for the new submarine line the project 75 I, unless they can commit to a new facility or new dock so that there is no disruption on the planned nuclear subs (SSNs and SSBNs).

Perhaps the existing facilities at Goa Shipyard could be expanded to enable construction of larger vessels and Cochin Shipyard could be expanded too to allow simultaneous construction of multiple vessels without hindering the construction of the AC.

Plus new companies could be invited to set up shipayrds like th L&T - TIDCO Joint Venture near Chennai (Kattupalli Shipyard cum Captive Port Complex).

 

[gf0012-aust]

if you look at the government yards and even factor in the private examples, India cannot build at the requisite rate.

you just can't ramp up production and lines, you have to find the experienced people to do so.

all the major shipbuilders are booked out for the next 5-10 years and they are paying significantly higher wages because they have experienced people and are not suffering from churn

 

[kay_man]

Hey guys . Has anyone heard anything new on the Vikrant class aircraft carrier construction? haven't heard anything on that for a long time. Any report on how many modules have been completed?

 

[vivtho]

Who cares? The kitty hawk is practically worthless. I mean it's over 50 years old. It has seen a lot of sea time. Its also oil propelled, If it had nuclear propulsion than Kitty would have been worth considering. The Elizabeth on the other hand is a brand new ship.

For the record, even if the report was accurate, I would've been against buying the Kitty Hawk, even if we'd been offered it. But I'd like to step in to offer by 2c.

Do you seriously think that the US would sell a nuclear propelled ship to a country with which it is not allied in any formal agreements? I cannot think of any nuclear-powered ship ever sold to anyone by the US.

Secondly, nuclear ships are expensive ... really expensive to operate. The reactors have a fixed lifespan that cannot be increased. The constant radiation of 50 years of use would have required the complete replacement of the entire propulsion system. The cost of doing that would make the Gorshkov refit look like a bargain (I'm not exaggerating for effect here).

Also, age should not be the reason for rejecting the deal. While a 50 year old hull would be unacceptably old for a navy wanting to use it on the front-lines, another navy might see it as an acceptable way to learn about shipbuilding skills and carrier technology. For example, despite the INS Viraat being over 51 years old, it still serves a useful purpose for the Indian Navy. The Indian Navy purchased the INS Jalashwa from the USN even though it is almost 45 years old for the same reason. The Indian Navy is not alone in this, the Brazilian Navy purchased the ex-French Navy Foch when it was already 43 years old.

 

[gf0012-aust]

For the record, even if the report was accurate, I would've been against buying the Kitty Hawk, even if we'd been offered it. But I'd like to step in to offer by 2c.

India was never going to get it, for a whole pile of reasons, none of them have anything to do with US-Indo politics

Do you seriously think that the US would sell a nuclear propelled ship to a country with which it is not allied in any formal agreements? I cannot think of any nuclear-powered ship ever sold to anyone by the US.

its a good thing that you understand that the kittycat is not a nuke

Secondly, nuclear ships are expensive ... really expensive to operate. The reactors have a fixed lifespan that cannot be increased. The constant radiation of 50 years of use would have required the complete replacement of the entire propulsion system. The cost of doing that would make the Gorshkov refit look like a bargain (I'm not exaggerating for effect here).

Not with current nuke technology, but as the KK is not a nuke, and as no-one has onsold any nuke, let alone a nuke with current tech - its academic

Also, age should not be the reason for rejecting the deal. While a 50 year old hull would be unacceptably old for a navy wanting to use it on the front-lines, another navy might see it as an acceptable way to learn about shipbuilding skills and carrier technology. For example, despite the INS Viraat being over 51 years old, it still serves a useful purpose for the Indian Navy. The Indian Navy purchased the INS Jalashwa from the USN even though it is almost 45 years old for the same reason. The Indian Navy is not alone in this, the Brazilian Navy purchased the ex-French Navy Foch when it was already 43 years old.

the ship wasn't available, it was ridiculous internet chatter without substance

apart from the fact that you are now contradicting your first sentence and don't understand that the Kittycat was a conventional and only lasted so long due to specific issues in the US-Japan and a conventional was the safest way to have a non nuke presence but homeported.

 

[vivtho]

India was never going to get it, for a whole pile of reasons, none of them have anything to do with US-Indo politics
...... specific issues in the US-Japan and a conventional was the safest way to have a non nuke presence but homeported.

GF0012 ... I agree with all of your statements. I was responding to binayak95's statement here. I was trying to make a somewhat different point across to him.

 

[gf0012-aust]

GF0012 ... I agree with all of your statements. I was responding to binayak95's statement here. I was trying to make a somewhat different point across to him.

no probs... some of my comments are cryptic as I'm typing on a small keyboard at the airport.... so getting it all in before batt goes flat

 

[dragonfire]

if you look at the government yards and even factor in the private examples, India cannot build at the requisite rate.

you just can't ramp up production and lines, you have to find the experienced people to do so.

all the major shipbuilders are booked out for the next 5-10 years and they are paying significantly higher wages because they have experienced people and are not suffering from churn

Thats right

Even with capacity expansion and introduction of new yards it would not take care of the needs of the IN.

However it would be fool hardy not leverage the order book to build capabilities and competencies in house.

Over a longer period of time the Indian yards should be able to take care of not only the Indian Defence and commercial requirements but also aim at the export market of larger sized vessels. So R&D should also be a major focus area. Currently we are majorly into modification/upgrading of existing designs or acquisition of designs, we should move over a period of time to build the necessary skill sets in designing and building contemporary vessels from the ground up.

 

[vivtho]

no probs... some of my comments are cryptic as I'm typing on a small keyboard at the airport.... so getting it all in before batt goes flat

Talk about coincidences ... I'm typing in an airport under exactly the same circumstances

 

[tphuang]

Thats right

Even with capacity expansion and introduction of new yards it would not take care of the needs of the IN.

However it would be fool hardy not leverage the order book to build capabilities and competencies in house.

Over a longer period of time the Indian yards should be able to take care of not only the Indian Defence and commercial requirements but also aim at the export market of larger sized vessels. So R&D should also be a major focus area. Currently we are majorly into modification/upgrading of existing designs or acquisition of designs, we should move over a period of time to build the necessary skill sets in designing and building contemporary vessels from the ground up.

think about civilian exports first. If India can compete in the civilian shipbuilding sector, then that will be a good sign that I can produce competitively priced warships for other countries. As of now, it doesn't appear to me that India can compete technologically now or in the near future in naval ships, so it would have to have advantages in quality and pricing. And certainly, the way to do it is through private sector.

 

[dragonfire]

think about civilian exports first. If India can compete in the civilian shipbuilding sector, then that will be a good sign that I can produce competitively priced warships for other countries. As of now, it doesn't appear to me that India can compete technologically now or in the near future in naval ships, so it would have to have advantages in quality and pricing. And certainly, the way to do it is through private sector.

Private Sector participation is increasing in the Indian Shipbuilding industry, some consolidation, generation of capital through IPOs etc has also been seen. For any domestic shipbuilder the massive expansion plans of the IN would be too juicy to ignore, since the design capabilities are not in place they major yards are always looking towards gaining more knowledge in the construction aspects by constructing the 3rd ship of a class onwards. So capacity expansion is being undertaken to simultaneously construct different classes of vessels, this is seen in Kolkata and Mumbai.

What deters non-shipbuilders from entering into this area is the massive capital infusion required.

 

[Twinblade]

Indian Navy gears up for training on Scorpene subs news

New Delhi: In the coming months, two sets of Indian Navy (IN) crew will travel to France for training on Scorpene hunter-killer submarines, six of which are being built at Mazagon Docks Ltd (MDL) in Mumbai under a Rs23,562 crore transfer-of-technology programme. The programme is referred to as Project-75.

French collaborator DCNS and Indian shipyard Mazgaon Dockyard Ltd now like to express confidence that Project-75 is on track. The first indigenously built Scorpene is expected to slip into water in 2013, and be ready for commissioning by August 2015 after extensive harbour and sea trials.

The last of the six submarines is expected to be delivered to IN by 2018. Deliveries are expected to take place at intervals of one every nine months after the first one is delivered in 2015. According to officials, the third and fourth submarines are already under construction at MDL shipyard.

The Scorpene production is back on track. The second sub tender under Project 75 is expected soon, its reportedly even bigger than MMRCA. Its only after the learning from the two subs is acquired that we will see an Indian diesel sub (probably early in next decade)

PS: Request to Mods to rename this thread into a dedicated IN thread, we don't seem to have one.

 

[binayak95]

I agree with all your points but it seems that i presented my view in a diff. manner. I believe that we should focus on biulding ships on our own and not buy the kitt hawk or any other ship.

 

[Bonza]

I agree with all your points but it seems that i presented my view in a diff. manner. I believe that we should focus on biulding ships on our own and not buy the kitt hawk or any other ship.

India's not going to buy the Kitty Hawk, nor was it ever on the table as a deal. Go and do some searches via google and you'll see what I mean - just about the only official source on the topic is a US spokesman saying no such deal was ever going to take place. Here's an excerpt:

India desperately needs aircraft carriers, too, as its purchase of the Russian ship Admiral Gorshkov is delayed, and India's own carrier, the INS Viraat, is aging fast. For weeks, reports have circulated in Indian newspapers and on various blogs that the U.S. would give the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk, a conventionally fueled carrier that was slated for decommissioning, to India. But a Navy spokesman in Washington, Lt. Col. Clay Doss, shot that story down. "We're not doing it," he said. "The Navy has no plans to transfer the Kitty Hawk to India, nor is this a subject of discussion between our navies at any level." He noted that any transfer of ships so huge requires congressional approval. The Navy, he added, hasn't sought such approval to transfer the Kitty Hawk to India.

Taken from: Gates Butters Up India for U.S. Guns

 

[welsh1]

one thing i do not quite understand is why India is going for a 3 different types of aircraft carrier of differing sizes.

also could India also potentially be flying 3 different types of aircraft off the carriers? mig 29, tejas and EF/rafael?

to me this seems like a very inefficient and costly method of doing things, can someone help me to understand the logic.

 

[vivtho]

one thing i do not quite understand is why India is going for a 3 different types of aircraft carrier of differing sizes.

also could India also potentially be flying 3 different types of aircraft off the carriers? mig 29, tejas and EF/rafael?

to me this seems like a very inefficient and costly method of doing things, can someone help me to understand the logic.

What I'm guess here is that while the Indian Navy would prefer to have carriers of the same class, there are very few options available to them. The impression I get it is that in the short-term the IN's goal is to build up their naval aviation skills and technologies for which they are willing to give up the benefits of common designs.

WRT to the aircraft, MiG-29 and Tejas will be operated off all the carriers, but the EF/Rafale is just a proposal for now. Again, in the long run I think we'd see the Tejas forming the bulk of the air wings, the MiG-29K was chosen because it was a part of the deal signed with the Russians for the carrier.

 

[welsh1]

cheers for that vivtho,
makes some sense, though it could be too short sighted imo. it will be very intresting to see the devolpement of the IN's carrier capability.

i think there will be alot of key issues to be resolved, but in the end you guys will get a very potent strike force. the question is how long and what path will you take.

 

[dragonfire]

.

WRT to the aircraft, MiG-29 and Tejas will be operated off all the carriers, but the EF/Rafale is just a proposal for now. Again, in the long run I think we'd see the Tejas forming the bulk of the air wings, the MiG-29K was chosen because it was a part of the deal signed with the Russians for the carrier.

The Mig-29Ks have been ordered for IAC1 as well, 29 of them probably would operate from the first Indigenous AC. So clearly IN has a preference for the Mig-29Ks for STOBAR ops. LCA Naval Tejas has just had the first prototype launched recently so it is a few years from having a full fledged order from the Navy in bulk numbers.

The 2nd IAC's layout is not yet finalized, so depending on if it would be a CATOBAR or a STOBAR the IN would decide on the platforms to operate on the same. However at the same time with the dozen or so already operational Mig-29Ks with the IN, the talk of the town (no official sources) is that it is a very capable platform and has impressed its users, however only after a couple of years of deck operations could the navy start comparing the same to other contemporary aircraft. IN has towards the same already issued an RFI to all the major naval fighter aircraft manufacturers.

In my personal opinion however would be that if the future ACs are going to be in STOBAR mode it would make sense to retain the Mig-29 K + Naval Tejas model. The major advantage of an external platform being LO features for which the candidates could be the F-35, FGFA naval, AMCA naval (the last two being a possibility for larger carriers - nothing major reported though)

 

[Eeshaan]

In my personal opinion however would be that if the future ACs are going to be in STOBAR mode it would make sense to retain the Mig-29 K + Naval Tejas model. The major advantage of an external platform being LO features for which the candidates could be the F-35, FGFA naval, AMCA naval (the last two being a possibility for larger carriers - nothing major reported though)

AMCA ? I'm not aware of that project. Can you please elaborate a bit on it ? What does AMCA stand for & what is being developed under this project ?

 

[dragonfire]

AMCA ? I'm not aware of that project. Can you please elaborate a bit on it ? What does AMCA stand for & what is being developed under this project ?

Medium Combat Aircraft

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Medium_Combat_Aircraft"]Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:MediumCombatAircraft1.JPG" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/MediumCombatAircraft1.JPG/300px-MediumCombatAircraft1.JPG"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/c/ca/MediumCombatAircraft1.JPG/300px-MediumCombatAircraft1.JPG[/ame]

AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft - planned as a 5th gen LO fighter aircraft, first flight planned for 2017, wind tunnel model shown in public, awaiting clearances from govt. Personal opinion is still in design stage, now that the IAF has a year back given its requirements