Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[swerve]

Pilots will be flying with US navy carrier squadrons (already happening, IIRC), & deck crews will also go on loan to the Yanks.

 

[SteelTiger 177]

The Indian Navy should consider a fourth carrier as insurance.

 

[dragonfire]

The Indian Navy should consider a fourth carrier as insurance.

Please read the forum rules - one liners are not allowed

 

[kay_man]

Precisely why IN should stick to the STOBAR model. It would take some time for the operational paradigms to be worked out as the current carrier is a STOVL config operating Harriers. If you invest time and facilities to operationalise a new config then should maximise on the learnings to utilise the same for the future also. The IN Pilots who get trained to operate on the first IAC can be part of the next batch of pilots and their training for the second IAC, because the model would be the same and in all probability the aircrafts too (Mig-29Ks and LCA Tejas N).

Also in a war scenario if one of the carriers is in the dock and not operational then the air wing would more or less be constrained in their usage, whereas if there is the same model and aircraft, attrition can be managed very effectively and maybe additional aircraft can be deployed as well from the operational carrier

I agree with you now since you agree with me...
Like i said before India should not go for a CATOBAR carrier just yet...it would be better of building atleast 3 STOBAR carriers like the planned project 71 ( Vikrant Class ).

 

[SteelTiger 177]

I'm sorry thaat my last post on this subject was brief.I'd like to take this moment to clear that up.I feel india should go for 4 aircraft carrires as an means to cover all contingencies.

 

[Twinblade]

Thats actually interesting, Indian navy has been desperately trying to keep the INS Vikrant in action till the INS Vikramaditya(gorshkov) gets inducted so that there is no break in carrier operations experience. I understand there is a belief that if there is a break in carrier operations, it will be a task to pick it up again.
With the Harriers gone and illustrious converted to helicopter role, and QEs or F-35s still not here for quiet some time. whats the RNs contingency plan? how do they plan to keep the experience alive? I believe this is probably after a long time that RN will be without any carrier in its fleet.

INS Vikrant has been retired. Viraat will stay in action till 2019. I don't know how they plan to keep the hariers flying. Vikramaditya will be handed over to IN by 2012. We can expect it to be fully operational by 2014 with mig 29k's. IAC 1 will be handed over to IN by 2014 and will enter service with Mig 29k's and Tejas-N as soon as it enters series production.

 

[binayak95]

The Queen Elizabeth was offered to India during the economic meltdown but we refused!!!! The Elizabeth with F-35s and MiG 29Ks can kick some ass!

 

[binayak95]

The Sea Harriers are already in the Process of being phased out and are about to be replaced with Mig29ks AND the LCA- naval version although its capabilities are yet to be known. What interests me is the composition of IN's battle groups. Sure it'll have the 15A class destroyers and the Shivaliks but what about submarines- Scorpenes or Atvs

 

[SASWanabe]

The Queen Elizabeth was offered to India during the economic meltdown but we refused!!!! The Elizabeth with F-35s and MiG 29Ks can kick some ass!

and are the Americans gonna GIVE you Kitty Hawk aswel?

 

[binayak95]

and are the Americans gonna GIVE you Kitty Hawk aswel?

Who cares? The kitty hawk is practically worthless. I mean it's over 50 years old. It has seen a lot of sea time. Its also oil propelled, If it had nuclear propulsion than Kitty would have been worth considering. The Elizabeth on the other hand is a brand new ship.

 

[binayak95]

I think that the typical IN Carrier battle group would have a carrier, some destroyers, frigates and corvettes. The IN has these in plenty but what about subs?? Will it operate like american battle groups which have nuclear tactical missile carrying suns or like the Britis which have nuclear as well as SSK subs? Anyone got any ideas?

 

[Bonza]

Who cares? The kitty hawk is practically worthless. I mean it's over 50 years old. It has seen a lot of sea time. Its also oil propelled, If it had nuclear propulsion than Kitty would have been worth considering. The Elizabeth on the other hand is a brand new ship.

The point he was trying to make is that a lot of rumours get thrown around, the Kitty Hawk sale was one of them. It was a media-fuelled story and was confirmed as false by official US sources - and for the very reason you stated, the vessel was considered too old to continue naval service. This was also the case with the Queen Elizabeth. India will not be purchasing the vessel nor has there been an offer to make her available for purchase. The rumour appeared to originate from a British newspaper, and the Ministry of Defence had the following response:

"An article in The Guardian suggests that the MOD is considering selling one of the two future aircraft carriers to India to ease the strain on the Defence Budget. This is unfounded speculation. There has been no approach by the Indian Navy to the MOD about purchasing a future aircraft carrier."

So what he's saying is you shouldn't believe everything you read, as the mainstream media (in any country) is totally clueless on defence-related matters to begin with and displays a willingness to report anything they think will make a good story, regardless of its accuracy.

 

[aayush]

3 or more A/C carriers in IN NAVY .

Good Day,

India must go for more than 3 A/C Carriers .
Try to make them in India . Do not buy from other countries any more .
They can try privet sector Shipyards in India with any foreign partner . . Give them smaller carriers first than go for big ones .

 

[aayush]

Indian A/C.

and are the Americans gonna GIVE you Kitty Hawk aswel?

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No thank you very much .
As per A.K. Antony ( Defence Minister of India ) no more War Ships from any other countries. If that can be build in India.
If not than yes can get from any where. But try first in India only.
At this moment India is using government shipyards only .
In near future if they go for private shipyards than it will be much faster to go for such ships . Can be build in India only.

 

[binayak95]

The point he was trying to make is that a lot of rumours get thrown around, the Kitty Hawk sale was one of them. It was a media-fuelled story and was confirmed as false by official US sources - and for the very reason you stated, the vessel was considered too old to continue naval service. This was also the case with the Queen Elizabeth. India will not be purchasing the vessel nor has there been an offer to make her available for purchase. The rumour appeared to originate from a British newspaper, and the Ministry of Defence had the following response:

"An article in The Guardian suggests that the MOD is considering selling one of the two future aircraft carriers to India to ease the strain on the Defence Budget. This is unfounded speculation. There has been no approach by the Indian Navy to the MOD about purchasing a future aircraft carrier."

So what he's saying is you shouldn't believe everything you read, as the mainstream media (in any country) is totally clueless on defence-related matters to begin with and displays a willingness to report anything they think will make a good story, regardless of its accuracy.

Thanks for the information. I had no idea that it was just a rumour.

 

[gf0012-aust]

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No thank you very much .
As per A.K. Antony ( Defence Minister of India ) no more War Ships from any other countries. If that can be build in India.
If not than yes can get from any where. But try first in India only.
At this moment India is using government shipyards only .
In near future if they go for private shipyards than it will be much faster to go for such ships . Can be build in India only.

and the reality is that Indian Yards are unable to meet the future build requirements - and thats also ignoring the reality that the quality of work in some yards leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[kay_man]

and the reality is that Indian Yards are unable to meet the future build requirements - and thats also ignoring the reality that the quality of work in some yards leaves a lot to be desired.

That is the truth.
It is mainly because all warships are built only in government facilities..........that is why all current major projects are facing delays.
hope they start involving the private sector too.

 

[gf0012-aust]

That is the truth.
It is mainly because all warships are built only in government facilities..........that is why all current major projects are facing delays.
hope they start involving the private sector too.

the key for the IndGov is monitoring the quality of the work done by the private sector.

like all governments, there can be a problem trying to find staffing who also have the requisite experience.

I'm strongly of the view (and have worked on diff projects in diff countries) that govt workers involved with procurement and quality assurance issues need to have experience outside of the publc service and public administration

 

[kay_man]

the key for the IndGov is monitoring the quality of the work done by the private sector.

like all governments, there can be a problem trying to find staffing who also have the requisite experience.

I'm strongly of the view (and have worked on diff projects in diff countries) that govt workers involved with procurement and quality assurance issues need to have experience outside of the publc service and public administration

There is one other problem.
There are many private firms who are involved in manufacturing components, softwares for the army and the airforce.
The private firms also R&D establishments for the development of technology for the air force and army related components.
But in case of Navy there are comparatively fewer firms engaged in manufacturing and R&D of equipments (probably due to higher investment).
Only few large firms like L&T, TATA groups etc are involved and they are mostly concerned with steel supply and hull building etc........not with R&D of sensors or something like that.
So lot of design expertise and tech knowhow is kept with the Govt. agencies.

 

[sixsigma1978]

and the reality is that Indian Yards are unable to meet the future build requirements - and thats also ignoring the reality that the quality of work in some yards leaves a lot to be desired.

This was the case. Pipavav is now on track to becoming the first full fledged private warship and aircraft carrier defence shipyard in the country. Can't post any links till I reach my tenth post- but googling can get you to the source(s) specified

Pipavav Shipyard to build warships for Indian Navy
Pipavav Shipyard is set to make an entry into the defence sector after securing approval from the Foreign Investment Promotion Board on Wednesday to build warships for the Indian Navy.

"The company has obtained all statutory clearances required for warship-building for defence sector," it said in a filing to the Bombay Stock Exchange, adding that it received FIPB clearance on Wednesday, to undertake additional activity related to the defence sector.

The licence would allow the company to bid for construction of submarines, destroyers, frigates, LPD, corvettes and aircraft carriers, the filing added.
In November, 2010, the company had said it received a licence to build warships for Indian Navy after securing clearances from ministries like home and defence and other related agencies.

As per the approval, Pipavav Shipyard has the licence to build five warships per year, which in effect means that the company can undertake about 20 warships of various capacities at a time, as the normal building time for any front line warship is between three to four years.

According to the company, it is the only shipyard in the private sector with modular construction facilities and a huge dry dock to receive the licence.
The Pipavav Shipyard is also the only yard in the country which can undertake both construction of new aircraft carriers and dry docking of INS Vikramaditya (ex-Admiral Gorshkov), the company said.
It is also planning to bid for warship programmes of other countries, preferably in partnership with defence Public Sector Units.

Source : Reuters

This is a quote from their Website (google Pipavav)

Mumbai: The Pipavav Shipyard on Thursday said that it has received permission from the foreign investment Promotion Board (FIPB) for foreign direct equity investment and license to build warships for the Indian Navy.

“The company has obtained all statutory clearances required for warship building for defence sector. The clearance will help Pipavav to bid for all future warship projects like frigates, destroyers, aircraft carriers, LPDs, submarine, corvettes of the Indian Navy,” it said in a notice to the exchanges.The company’s shares on the Bombay Stock Exchange (BSE) closed at R79.20, up 1.02% on Thursday.

“For building warships you need to have three things — world class facility, defence production licence and FIPB approval. So now we have all three of them in place and will be bidding for any opportunity in this field. There is a lot of potential in this field and we are proud to have Northrop as our partners which gives us an edge above the rest to build complex warships," said Nikhil Gandhi, non executive director & chairman, Pipavav Shipyard. Last month, the company had signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with Northrop Grumman Overseas Service Corporation, Delaware, USA. Northrop is one of the largest defence companies in the segment with an expertise in defence systems, airspace management systems, navigation systems, precision weapons and marine systems.

The MoU will allow Pipavav Shipyard to focus on huge opportunities present in the defence sector in India with the help of technology and expertise possessed by Northrop. Pipavav Shipyard endeavors to indigenously produce military hardware for India and other friendly nations with such partnerships.

Its corporate website boasts of the company having necessary infrastructure and facility to build all kinds of naval vessels. Recently, Ovira Logistics had bought 51.1 million shares or about 7.67% in Pipavav Shipyard at R80.83 a share. Infrastructure Leasing and Financial Services, IL&FS Financial Services and IL&FS Employee Welfare Trust sold the shares.

The IL&FS group has completely exited its investments made in the Shipyard starting around three years before the public issue of the infrastructure company . Last October, London-listed private equity firm Trinity Capital also completed its exit from Pipavav.