No-fly zone over Libya

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Just a little update, it looks like Gaddafi hid tons of military vehicles in the tunnels of the great manmade river, to save them from NATO air stikes. Meanwhile the assault on Misurata continues, with the use of cluster munitions. There have also been reports of forced draftees as young as 15, in the Gaddafi forces.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ðàçâåäêà: Êàääàôè ïåðåõèòðèë ÍÀÒÎ, ñïðÿòàâ áîåâóþ òåõíèêó â ïîäçåìíûõ ëàáèðèíòàõ
 

DarthAmerica

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Just a little update, it looks like Gaddafi hid tons of military vehicles in the tunnels of the great manmade river, to save them from NATO air stikes. Meanwhile the assault on Misurata continues, with the use of cluster munitions. There have also been reports of forced draftees as young as 15, in the Gaddafi forces.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ðàçâåäêà: Êàääàôè ïåðåõèòðèë ÍÀÒÎ, ñïðÿòàâ áîåâóþ òåõíèêó â ïîäçåìíûõ ëàáèðèíòàõ

This is really not a new development. It's more like the mainstream are finally starting to see the Libyan conflict in the context of reality. I mentioned the Serbian experience in this thread earlier when I questioned the ability of air power to be effective in achieving the stated objectives. Armor can be easily concealed and hidden from air power as it was in 1999. During the bombardment you'll hear glowing reports of the effectiveness of tank plinking and SEAD only to have the armor and anti-air equipment reemerge later.*

As mentioned earlier Gaddafi does not need conventional massed armor formations to defeat the rebel mobs. He can preserve his armor and use technicals and indirect fires along with his better communications and organizational structure to crush them.*

The problem here is that the answer to the Gaddafi problem, and I'm not sure he's the real problem, is to be found on the ground. And it's on the ground where the most serious shortcomings are to be found.

-DA
 

Eeshaan

New Member
Like I said, it would create the impression that something is being done. That would be a political brownie point for the governments of those nations, both internally, where they would be able to say that they helped bring him down, while not committing to anything large or long term, and externally, they would be relatively well positioned to deal with the government that comes to power after him.

On the minus side, if Gaddafi turns the tide, and regains control of Libya, Russia, China, and other non-western actors will gain major ground there. The West could end up looking like fools, the price of oil would remain high (if not increase), and the opposition will be out of the picture entirely.
Pardon my ignorance, but are these rebels really the shining knights riding around on white horses that some media portray them as ?

Do you think that if the rebel forces actually managed to overthrow Gaddafi, then Libya will be made into a democratic nation, with elections and the will of the free people governing the country, or will we have one set of dictators replacing another ?
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Pardon my ignorance, but are these rebels really the shining knights riding around on white horses that some media portray them as ?

Do you think that if the rebel forces actually managed to overthrow Gaddafi, then Libya will be made into a democratic nation, with elections and the will of the free people governing the country, or will we have one set of dictators replacing another ?
The rebels are absolutely unorganized they have no proper formal body, they can never beat Gaddafi without foreign troops supporting them on the ground.

So if there are foreign troops involved then it will be like Iraq and Afghan and if by some unimaginable miracle the rebels beat gaddafi on their own, I think we are looking at anarchy.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Pardon my ignorance, but are these rebels really the shining knights riding around on white horses that some media portray them as ?

Do you think that if the rebel forces actually managed to overthrow Gaddafi, then Libya will be made into a democratic nation, with elections and the will of the free people governing the country, or will we have one set of dictators replacing another ?
No I do not. I think they are a bunch of malcontents with dangerous ties and affiliations that are in a unique position to overthrow a long-standing dictatorship. I think post-Gaddafi Libya is likely to be worse.
 

DarthAmerica

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
No I do not. I think they are a bunch of malcontents with dangerous ties and affiliations that are in a unique position to overthrow a long-standing dictatorship. I think post-Gaddafi Libya is likely to be worse.
But then they aren't really in a position to overthrow Gaddafi are they? They can barely manage a stalemate in some areas with NATO air cover only serving to delay their eventual destruction.

I think the politics behind this conflict propped up the rebels to be more than they are in the view of the MSM. People have this view of a liberating army pushing back a dictator on a glorious march into Tripoli where somehow bombs and missiles fired from aircraft magically don't cause collateral damage and the need for organized ground forces have disappeared into military history. We are seeing the replay of the 1990's naïveté and fanboy view of air power as the determining factor in wars.

-DA
 
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Eeshaan

New Member
If not completely remove him from power in Tripoli, then with foreing support, they might be able to hold certain areas of Libya from Gaddhafi's forces.

At this point, I don't think they can take Tripoli without SIGNIFICANT foreign support.

Also, with my earlier question, I was stating my disapproval of how some western media are handling the rebels. Feanor & TCP were spot-on, these guys aren't the bleeding heart do-gooders that the media sometimes makes them out to be.

Libya might go down the path of factions fighting each other, not civil war scale, but enough to say that Libya might be more divided than united after the fall of Gaddhafi if the rebels & the international community don't take united & organised action against the dictator.
 

DarthAmerica

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
If not completely remove him from power in Tripoli, then with foreing support, they might be able to hold certain areas of Libya from Gaddhafi's forces.

At this point, I don't think they can take Tripoli without SIGNIFICANT foreign support.

Also, with my earlier question, I was stating my disapproval of how some western media are handling the rebels. Feanor & TCP were spot-on, these guys aren't the bleeding heart do-gooders that the media sometimes makes them out to be.

Libya might go down the path of factions fighting each other, not civil war scale, but enough to say that Libya might be more divided than united after the fall of Gaddhafi if the rebels & the international community don't take united & organised action against the dictator.
More like foreign occupation.

-DA
 

Shock

New Member
More like foreign occupation.

-DA
sadly, this may be true. unless they start sending more military "advisers" to get them more organized, it's unlikely that they will topple Gaddhafi.

however, on the flip side, the rebels are clearly motivated, have the will of the people, and have knowledge of the territory. all necessary for ongoing guerrilla warfare (which this is turning out to be). :duel
 

DarthAmerica

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
sadly, this may be true. unless they start sending more military "advisers" to get them more organized, it's unlikely that they will topple Gaddhafi.

however, on the flip side, the rebels are clearly motivated, have the will of the people, and have knowledge of the territory. all necessary for ongoing guerrilla warfare (which this is turning out to be). :duel

Motivated, yes. Popular, no. Except in the fantasy of western media. What was predicted about air power here has again proven true. As sexy and spectacular as it is, it has again failed to be sufficient by itself to conclude the conflict. Concession, assassination or occupation is the only recourse at this point...

-DA
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Motivated, yes. Popular, no. Except in the fantasy of western media. What was predicted about air power here has again proven true. As sexy and spectacular as it is, it has again failed to be sufficient by itself to conclude the conflict. Concession, assassination or occupation is the only recourse at this point...

-DA
Exactly. Most Libyan tribes still fully back Gaddafi and so do most of the military.

The initial scare most Gaddafi supporters got at the start of the no fly zone has been extremely diluted by now.
 

Eeshaan

New Member
I was wondering, what is going to be the geo-political, economic & military effects internationally if Gaddhafi is able to crush the rebellion completely ?

What is going to be the effect on the region's stability ? And that on Gadhaffi & the other non-western powers ?

In my opinion, if Gaddhafi is able to defeat this rebellion entirely, it might result in stopping the unrest in the middle east, which seems to me like a Domino Effect. It will also greatly strengthen anti-western powers in the region like Iran and of course, greatly increase Gadhaffi's power & influence in the region.

If he is defeated, then it might actually have an adverse effect for the west, as rebellions might arise in other pro-western nations in the region, like Saudi Arabia, Oman etc ?

Might a stalemate between Gadhaffi & the rebels be the best solution to this ? Drain Gaddhafi's recources into a long, protracted guerrilla war & contain his power ? :confused:

Might not be that easy without further international assistance though :( ...
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
I was wondering, what is going to be the geo-political, economic & military effects internationally if Gaddhafi is able to crush the rebellion completely ?
Things will probably go back to normal as it did before. I doubt if it play a part in determining whether people in other regional countries will try to topple governments they never elected.

If he is defeated, then it might actually have an adverse effect for the west, as rebellions might arise in other pro-western nations in the region, like Saudi Arabia, Oman etc ?
Whilst the west openly talks about democracy and self-determination, it is actually very worried about what kind of democtaric government people in various countries will elect. Remember what happened in Algeria, the military government was on the verge of losing the elections to a popular Islamist movement, it canceled the elections and stayed in power with the tacit approval of the west who had no desire to see Islamists come to power -whether democraticly elected or not. At present all eyes are currently on Syria and there is great concern of what role the Muslim Brotherhood will play in the event that Assad loses power.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b42FJwydOCY"]YouTube - Fisk lashes out at West in Middle East[/nomedia]


YouTube - Robert Fisk on Syrian Uprising

I have said so before, and I was critised here for it, western reaction towards the quelling of riots or demonstrations in countres that have a more traditional/established relationship or an important role to play in the the foreign policies of the U.S. and the U.K, are very different than that towards countries like Syria, Libya and others. Saudi Arabia sent military and para-military troops to Bahrain because it feared the spilllover effects it would have on it's own Shiite population, and received no more than a slap on the wrist in a U.S. State Department brefing. What would the reaction have been if Libya had done the same in Tunisia? Though there is so much talk about democracy, self-determination and human rights in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Syria, a lot of that is missing in countries like Jordan, Saudi, Bahrain, Qatar, etc, yet there is litle mention of this.

Might a stalemate between Gadhaffi & the rebels be the best solution to this ?
Well a continued stalemate might not be the best solution for the civilians caught up it in...

A year from now, if there is still a stalemate, despite the no fly zone, non lethal aid, advisors, isolation of Gaddafi's regime, will there still be the political will to mantain the current military and diplomatic efforts?
 
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kay_man

New Member
LOL. using crop dusters for bombers. Like the Malmo MFI 'Biafra Babies' used by Graf von Rosen in the Nigerian civil war.
Its a tried and tested terrorist tactic, first used by LTTE (tamil tigers) in Sri Lanka.
Highly effective. Difficult to detect since civilian aircraft can disappear easily.
 

carlgoon

New Member
Its a tried and tested terrorist tactic, first used by LTTE (tamil tigers) in Sri Lanka.
Highly effective. Difficult to detect since civilian aircraft can disappear easily.
Nah, first used in WWII! Then Korea, Indochina, Africa, South America and then by Tamil Tigerz.

Latest news story says the fuel tanks were bombed by helicopters with red cross marking.

Stay classy Gadaffi!
 

surpreme

Member
The no fly zone is taking alot of the Libya military out. The only time the Libya Army conduct a offensive that work when NATO could not do strike due to weather and duststorms. Being in a Army without air cover or air defense is very scary you alway have to look in the sky for aircrafts. It's like a stalement now until the rebels are trained it look like it remain that for a some time. The rebels remind me of the Somalis driving jeeps and having weapons on jeeps look like bunch of clown if you ask me. The over all conclusion is the no-fly zone is working to a certain degree. Airpower alone can't change the Libya leadership or ground war but once NATO started to hit the Libya Army that change what the no-fly was intended for. That now bring in other objective that NATO have in mind mainly the French but what is it ?
 
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