No-fly zone over Libya

LeGrig

New Member
It was observed by the patrol frigate Bersagliere (10 nautical miles offshore from Zlitan, where there is currently fighting between rebels & Gaddafistas) flying from the coast on a trajectory which was not threatening, & it was tracked until it landed harmlessly in the sea 2 km behind the ship.
I would think the object may also be a projectile loose-fired by the rebels from a MRLS located on the highway and pointed to the town (Zlitan). In such a case, the trajectory looks ballistic and ends at sea at approx. location as indicated by the frigate.
Anyhow, not a good point to be positioned only 10 miles out of the litoral fightings.;)
 

raptor2019

Banned Member
RAF Tornados destroy former regime vehicles in Libya...

RAF Tornados destroy former regime vehicles in Libya...

During an armed reconnaissance patrol over Sebha in southern Libya yesterday morning, Royal Air Force Tornado GR4s located a number of former regime armoured vehicles occupying dug-in positions near the town.

Three of the vehicles were destroyed by RAF aircraft. NATO was also maintaining an intensive presence over the coastal city of Sirte, and during the afternoon an RAF patrol identified one of Gaddafi's multiple rocket launchers to the east of the city.

RAF Tornados destroy former regime vehicles in Libya... / XAIRFORCES NEWS
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Recent events in Libya IMO only reinforces what we already know, that dependence airpower alone to achieve military and political objectives has limitations. I say this because at the start, there was high hopes in NATO that a ''no fly zone'' would create the conditions for the rebels to achieve their aims. When it was apparent that this was not be enough, the ''no fly zone'' was expended to include actual strikes across the whole country. Over time, the scope and intensity of the aiir strikes increased.

Whether it was also a combination of the airstrikes and the rebels receiving ''advice'' on the ground by special forces and material support, or whether it mainly due to air strikes that crippled Gadaffi's military and support infrastructure, is something we don't know yet.

Al Jazeera has reported that the British PM and the French President will be visiting Libya soon. I would not be surprised if the price for receiving democracy for Libya's new government will include sellling oil as subsidised prices to these countries.....
 

colay

New Member
One thing we can be sure of though is without airpower, the situation in Libya would be a very different and ugly one. Benghazi would have witnessed a horrific massacre if not for the timely application of air power.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
One thing we can be sure of though is without airpower, the situation in Libya would be a very different and ugly one. Benghazi would have witnessed a horrific massacre if not for the timely application of air power.
Maybe the situation would have been a prettier one if NATO had acted more decisively and committed ground troops. Of course then they couldn't pack up and leave afterwards, and pretend like the clusterfuck of a provisional government isn't their responsibility.
 

colay

New Member
Maybe the situation would have been a prettier one if NATO had acted more decisively and committed ground troops. Of course then they couldn't pack up and leave afterwards, and pretend like the clusterfuck of a provisional government isn't their responsibility.

I think that would have been too controversial and would have backfired.. even the rebels objected as they wanted to be responsible for their own destiny. What I think should have been done when it was clear that NATO was aggressively going after ground targets was to deploy attack helos earlier in the campaign.
 

Eeshaan

New Member
I think the 2 major questions one would ask at this point are :

1 : Where on earth is Gaddhafi ? Most of his family has fled the country to Algeria, but where is the main man himself ?

2 : How smooth, peaceful and "democratic" is the transition from a rebel force to an elected, legitimate government going to be ? When ? And will it require foreign aid such as peacekeepers or defence contractors etc. ?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think that would have been too controversial and would have backfired.. even the rebels objected as they wanted to be responsible for their own destiny. What I think should have been done when it was clear that NATO was aggressively going after ground targets was to deploy attack helos earlier in the campaign.
You mean the amalgam of Islamists, monarchists, nationalists, and Al-Qaeda? Those are the people you want to listen to?

While it would have been controversial and expensive, it would have been the correct approach, provided NATO had invested the resources and had the political will to pull it off. However because NATO is unwilling to commit, and is not politically unified around this, the result is a non-committal half-effort.
 

Eeshaan

New Member
You mean the amalgam of Islamists, monarchists, nationalists, and Al-Qaeda? Those are the people you want to listen to?

While it would have been controversial and expensive, it would have been the correct approach, provided NATO had invested the resources and had the political will to pull it off. However because NATO is unwilling to commit, and is not politically unified around this, the result is a non-committal half-effort.
I'm actually worried about what NATO has to do now, AFTER Gaddhafi is gone.

Might they be reluctant of suffering casualties from pro-Gaddhafi loyalist insurgencies, after their experience in Iraq ?

They did send in their Special Forces to train the rebels to fight the government forces, conduct airstrikes & high-risk operations etc.

A peacekeeping force or international rebuilding effort might require a NATO military presence ( boots on the ground ) in Libya until the government structure, civil services, law enforcement, general infrastructure etc. and most importantly the armed forces of free Libya have been reformed.

It does look a bit similar to the rebuilding Iraq post-Saddam. Or more like ISAF's mission in Afghanistan if you look at the different tribes in the area...
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Exactly except in both of your examples a long term western military presence was necessary. In Libya NATO is getting out fast, from the looks of it, leaving the country in the hands of hell knows who.
 

Eeshaan

New Member
Exactly except in both of your examples a long term western military presence was necessary. In Libya NATO is getting out fast, from the looks of it, leaving the country in the hands of hell knows who.
Yes that is correct. Seems like the main goal for NATO from day 1 was ONLY the toppling of Gaddhafi. It's been that since he siezed power in the 70s, so their "enthusiasm" is understandable :goodbad

Unfortunately, after experiencing iraq & afghanistan, nation building from scratch does not seem to be on the agenda.

But hey, at least the powers involved ( at least France ) seem to have gotten a good deal on the oil ( the 2nd, slightly less talked about reason for intervening ) ;)

That leaves the possibility of a UN peacekeeping force like those in other african nations, coming in to maintain order ?
 

colay

New Member
Yes that is correct. Seems like the main goal for NATO from day 1 was ONLY the toppling of Gaddhafi. It's been that since he siezed power in the 70s, so their "enthusiasm" is understandable :goodbad

Unfortunately, after experiencing iraq & afghanistan, nation building from scratch does not seem to be on the agenda.

But hey, at least the powers involved ( at least France ) seem to have gotten a good deal on the oil ( the 2nd, slightly less talked about reason for intervening ) ;)

That leaves the possibility of a UN peacekeeping force like those in other african nations, coming in to maintain order ?
Its a choice between the devil you know and the one you don't.. once the UN had given diplomatic cover for the use of force, for NATO not to act in the face of atrocities being committed on the ground was unacceptable and would call into question the relevance of the alliance itself.
As they say, the voice of the people is the voice of God and its up to the Libyans to sort things out.. if friends are willing to help, so much the better.
 

Eeshaan

New Member
Its a choice between the devil you know and the one you don't.. once the UN had given diplomatic cover for the use of force, for NATO not to act in the face of atrocities being committed on the ground was unacceptable and would call into question the relevance of the alliance itself.
As they say, the voice of the people is the voice of God and its up to the Libyans to sort things out.. if friends are willing to help, so much the better.
Yes, but then who will safeguard the western nations' interests in the now free Libya ?

I.E. Oil.

Will a UN peacekeeping force be deployed to protect the inevitable investments made by the major Oil & construction companies ? Or will Private Military companies be hired, like they currently are in Iraq & Afghanistan ?

IMHO, THIS is the crucial time to insure stability, peace & rebuild the infrastructure of the nation. In situations like this, as we have recently seen in Iraq & afghanistan, the real struggle happens during nation rebuilding. It's always advisable to go in with a plan for what to with the nation AFTER the local despot is toppled...
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Its a choice between the devil you know and the one you don't.. once the UN had given diplomatic cover for the use of force, for NATO not to act in the face of atrocities being committed on the ground was unacceptable and would call into question the relevance of the alliance itself.
As they say, the voice of the people is the voice of God and its up to the Libyans to sort things out.. if friends are willing to help, so much the better.
If option 1 and option 2 are devils, then choose option 3. Or if there isn't one, make one.
 

surpreme

Member
Libya no-fly zone worked with minimal resources such as full U.S. support. Finally NATO took the lead. France and U.K. coming back just like they did in the past conflict in Africa but just airpower this time.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
You mean the amalgam of Islamists, monarchists, nationalists, and Al-Qaeda? Those are the people you want to listen to?

While it would have been controversial and expensive, it would have been the correct approach, provided NATO had invested the resources and had the political will to pull it off. However because NATO is unwilling to commit, and is not politically unified around this, the result is a non-committal half-effort.
The amalgam you refer to (where's the evidence for Al-Qaeda, BTW?) has presided over a vastly more orderly transition than the US-led forces managed in Iraq, & has a far more coherent programme for the new administration. Sending in NATO troops would have meant that any new government would have been seen as a Western puppet, with no legitimacy. Even many Gaddafi-haters would probably have been easy to persuade to take a shot at it.

Look at the country. Foreign reporters can travel around escorted by locals. The BBC recently sent someone south, into country which had thrown out Gaddafi once Tripoli fell, but where there was no presence of the new government, with just a few locals for escort. They were ambushed & captured by former local Gaddafistas turned bandit, who were then persuaded or maybe bribed to release them by locals. Compare that with Iraq or Afghanistan. What happens to Western reporters who wander off into the wilds there? Are you saying that we should have attempted to re-create the Iraqi mess?

What gives Libya a chance is that the overthrow of Gaddafi is seen as having been achieved by Libyans (with foreign help, of course). Libyans died to liberate themselves. Nobody has foisted a foreign or foreign-appointed ruler on them: they've sorted that out for themselves. Look at such small details as the flag. That was settled 6 months ago. Rebels started waving the pre-Gaddafi flag, & it was immediately taken up as the emblem of the revolt. There was no debate, no argument: the consensus was obvious. A very good sign indeed. Now compare that with the Iraqi flag fiasco.

The winners in Libya feel good about themselves & Like us. That would not be the case if we'd done the fighting for them, occupied the country, & then started discussing when, how, & to who we would relinquish power. We would turn into the enemy.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Hopefully the Libyans will be able to solve their own problems without outside inteference and rebuild their country. The very same countries who were so concerned about 'democracy' and the 'safety' of civilians in Libya remain very silent, apart from the usual warnings and statements at the UN, about the plight of civilians in Yemen and Syria. As part of the bill the new rulers of Libya will have to pay for being given democracy, will subsidised oil and contracts for Western companies to invest in Libya have to be granted? How soon will it be before salesman from Giat and Dassault start flocking to the Libyan MOD to handout brochures of the Leclerc and Rafale?

Western intervention, is it ever helpful? - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

Look at the country. Foreign reporters can travel around escorted by locals. The BBC recently sent someone south, into country which had thrown out Gaddafi once Tripoli fell, but where there was no presence of the new government, with just a few locals for escort. They were ambushed & captured by former local Gaddafistas turned bandit, who were then persuaded or maybe bribed to release them by locals. Compare that with Iraq or Afghanistan. What happens to Western reporters who wander off into the wilds there? Are you saying that we should have attempted to re-create the Iraqi mess?

What gives Libya a chance is that the overthrow of Gaddafi is seen as having been achieved by Libyans (with foreign help, of course). Libyans died to liberate themselves. Nobody has foisted a foreign or foreign-appointed ruler on them: they've sorted that out for themselves. Look at such small details as the flag. That was settled 6 months ago. Rebels started waving the pre-Gaddafi flag, & it was immediately taken up as the emblem of the revolt. There was no debate, no argument: the consensus was obvious. A very good sign indeed. Now compare that with the Iraqi flag fiasco.
We should be having this discussion in about a year as I feel its way too early to form any opinions as to how things are going to work out in the long run, especially for the ordinary Libyans who just want to get on with their lives. In 2003, despite the looming problems with the Shiite/Sunni divide, political uncertainties, etc, things looked just as rosy and encouraging in Iraq, and look at the price tens of thousands of Iraqis had to pay in the coming years, due to miscaculations, mistakes and flawed policies made by others. Granted, Libya does not have the same level of complexity and problems Iraq had, but I feel recent events are no indication of how things will eventually turn out.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The amalgam you refer to (where's the evidence for Al-Qaeda, BTW?) has presided over a vastly more orderly transition than the US-led forces managed in Iraq, & has a far more coherent programme for the new administration. Sending in NATO troops would have meant that any new government would have been seen as a Western puppet, with no legitimacy. Even many Gaddafi-haters would probably have been easy to persuade to take a shot at it.
Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links - Telegraph
Prison Planet.com » US confirms al Qaeda members’ role in rebel command

Look at the country. Foreign reporters can travel around escorted by locals. The BBC recently sent someone south, into country which had thrown out Gaddafi once Tripoli fell, but where there was no presence of the new government, with just a few locals for escort. They were ambushed & captured by former local Gaddafistas turned bandit, who were then persuaded or maybe bribed to release them by locals. Compare that with Iraq or Afghanistan. What happens to Western reporters who wander off into the wilds there? Are you saying that we should have attempted to re-create the Iraqi mess?
The Iraqi mess, after a long US involvement, has produced a fairly stable western-friendly state. Do you think that will be the case in Libya?

What gives Libya a chance is that the overthrow of Gaddafi is seen as having been achieved by Libyans (with foreign help, of course). Libyans died to liberate themselves. Nobody has foisted a foreign or foreign-appointed ruler on them: they've sorted that out for themselves. Look at such small details as the flag. That was settled 6 months ago. Rebels started waving the pre-Gaddafi flag, & it was immediately taken up as the emblem of the revolt. There was no debate, no argument: the consensus was obvious. A very good sign indeed. Now compare that with the Iraqi flag fiasco.

The winners in Libya feel good about themselves & Like us. That would not be the case if we'd done the fighting for them, occupied the country, & then started discussing when, how, & to who we would relinquish power. We would turn into the enemy.
This leaves room for local nationalism, dictatorship, religious extremism, etc. I fully agree with the idea that we should stay out of the third world. But either we stay out entirely, or if we do get involved we should do it right.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Hopefully the Libyans will be able to solve their own problems without outside inteference and rebuild their country. The very same countries who were so concerned about 'democracy' and the 'safety' of civilians in Libya remain very silent, apart from the usual warnings and statements at the UN, about the plight of civilians in Yemen and Syria. As part of the bill the new rulers of Libya will have to pay for being given democracy, will subsidised oil and contracts for Western companies to invest in Libya have to be granted? How soon will it be before salesman from Giat and Dassault start flocking to the Libyan MOD to handout brochures of the Leclerc and Rafale?

Western intervention, is it ever helpful? - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

We should be having this discussion in about a year as I feel its way too early to form any opinions as to how things are going to work out in the long run, especially for the ordinary Libyans who just want to get on with their lives. In 2003, despite the looming problems with the Shiite/Sunni divide, political uncertainties, etc, things looked just as rosy and encouraging in Iraq, and look at the price tens of thousands of Iraqis had to pay in the coming years, due to miscaculations, mistakes and flawed policies made by others. Granted, Libya does not have the same level of complexity and problems Iraq had, but I feel recent events are no indication of how things will eventually turn out.
I agree it's too early to know how things will work out in the long run, but it isn't true that things looked rosy in Iraq in 2003. The breakdown in order in Baghdad, for example, has had no parallel in Libya, where the citizenry has done a tolerable job of keeping order among themselves. Imperfect, of course, but far better than in Iraq. There was a power vacuum there which makes the somewhat chaotic NTC look superbly well-organised, because the US armed forces were completely unprepared & unwilling to assume civil control, & the civilian administrator had no means.

Libya is better placed than Iraq. Its infrastructure is far less damaged. It is far more homogeneous, ethnically & religiously. Almost everyone follows the same variety of Sunni Islam. The small Berber minority backed the rebellion. The Tuareg minority split, & some seem likely to have problems with the new regime, but they're not a serious threat to national stability. Nor is the sub-Saharan immigrant minority, who are probably the biggest losers from the change of government.

There's no question of subsidised oil contracts. Western firms & governments will be very happy to get Libyan oil at market prices. It's top-quality, & very cheap to transport, because of proximity to markets. Libya will get a bit more for its oil than Gulf suppliers, & Europe will be happy to pay it. The world oil price may fall a little when Libyan exports are back on stream, but that will affect Libya less than most, because of the quality of its product.

Nor do I expect the new government to splash out on lots of new tanks & jets. It has seen that they're no protection against the big boys, & it has, for the moment, more hardware of most kinds than it can use. It will probably buy new military communications equipment as soon as it gets organised, start a programme of rationalisation & refurbishment of its large arsenal of old gear, & buy some surveillance aircraft (probably UAVs), but what's the hurry to do more? Where's the external threat? It has more pressing needs.

Syria is far more difficult, Firstly, there is no general uprising, no establishment of an alternative centre of power. The government is killing demonstrators, but on a lesser scale than outside intervention would bring. It's not bombing its own cities - yet. It's allowed (but watched) conferences of government opponents.They don't want NATO bombing on their behalf, & in any case, what would NATO bomb?

Yemen? I think everyone considers it too much of a mess, too chaotic. Who can you intervene in favour of?
 
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