No-fly zone over Libya

stud40111

New Member
I hope that this question is not deemed inappropriate for this thread, but I am not sure where to ask it.

What kinds of anti-aircraft weapons are Qadhafi's forces employing against Western aircraft right now? What particular weapon types and models are they using?

I have not been able to find any information on this.

Anyone know or have any guesses?

If so, please share such info.

Thanks in advance.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Germany has decided that it will pull out of the mission and is recalling all its ships from the region. Germany currently has one of the largest naval contingents in the area, as well as a sizable component within the AWACS contingent of Active Endeavour that has been rerouted to support the No-Fly Zone enforcement.

Initially Germany was only opposed to the NFZ (and its implementation), but has now decided that the maritime embargo is a no-go either. Since all NATO missions in the Mediterranean - OAE, SNMG1, SNMCMG1 - are rerouted to support this embargo or the NFZ, Germany is withdrawing from all of them effective immediately.

This will affect in total about 1200 sailors and airmen both in NATO missions (620) and as part of the Training Cruise that supported humanitarian missions (580), among them:
- the German crew components of 5 AWACS aircraft
- AAW frigate "Hamburg" (F124 class) - detached from OAE
- ASW frigate "Brandenburg" (F123 class) - training cruise
- ASW frigate "Lübeck" (F122 class) - detached from SNMG1
- ASW frigate "Rheinland-Pfalz" (F122 class) - training cruise
- MCMV "Datteln" - detached from SNMCMG1
- ELINT ship "Oker" - detached from OAE
- AOR "Berlin" - training cruise

The ships assigned to NATO missions (Hamburg, Lübeck, Datteln, Oker) are drawn back under national command, but to my knowledge will not move back to Germany - yet. The training cruise (Brandenburg, Rheinland-Pfalz, Berlin), having completed its humanitarian mission, will continue its previous mission.

The AWACS crewmembers will return to Germany. If parliament agrees - tomorrow - Germany will partly compensate the above by assigning 300 men to AWACS missions over Afghanistan. The first time they agreed though - in 2009 - the AFG AWACS mission was scrapped by NATO because Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan didn't allow overflights.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There wasnt no-fly zone when this happened. :rolleyes:
The no-fly-zone was decided on a couple hours earlier, and became effective immediately.

What kinds of anti-aircraft weapons are Qadhafi's forces employing against Western aircraft right now? What particular weapon types and models are they using?
Whole range of older Russian models. SA-2, SA-3, SA-5, SA-7, SA-8...
 

Swampfox157

New Member
What worries me is that we could end up getting into a 'SCUD hunt'. Libya is reported to have 416 SCUD-B missiles, which could conceivably be used to hit Benghazi. It IS possible that this could spark a Desert Storm-like 'SCUD hunt' that ties up huge quantities of resources and yields few dividends. We dedicated 2493 sorties to blowing these suckers up, but did not destroy anything except a handful of fuel trucks and decoy TELs. The aircraft which is, in my mind, most suitable for this would be the F-15E, as its crews are already highly proficient with the LANTIRN pods used for low-light/night targeting. We have two squadrons of Beagles based at RAF Lakenheath, which I suspect are already deployed in some strength, or conceivably flying multi-refueling missions from the UK itself. However, this would tie up considerable resources, as the aircraft could theoretically be staged out of US bases in Italy, with only a relative handful of airlift flights to shift support personnel and equipment.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
What worries me is that we could end up getting into a 'SCUD hunt'. Libya is reported to have 416 SCUD-B missiles, ...
IIRC Libya is reported to have bought a number of Scud-Bs in the 1970s. One figure quoted is 240, with 80 launcher vehicles. Some are known to have been destroyed, & it is unknown how many may survive, or if any are still usable.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
The no-fly-zone was decided on a couple hours earlier, and became effective immediately.


Whole range of older Russian models. SA-2, SA-3, SA-5, SA-7, SA-8...
Don't they also have the french "Crotale" - or has that stopped working long ago?
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
So what's people's oppinion:

To me it looks like the following:

First 48h:

* Destruction of Libyan air defenses.
(in accordiance with UN ressolution)

*Some bombardments of goverment troops advancing on Benghazi.
(Not so much in accordiance with UN ressolution, since armed rebels aren't civilians in need of protection, and the case of Goverment forces intending to attack civilians in that area has, frankly, not been made)

Then a "lull" in the fighting.
*Attacks concentrated on command and control facilities.
(Also a little bit difficult to see the direct link to the UN ressolution, since air superiority has clearly been established)

Last 48 hours;

*Concentrated attacks on goverment forces in and around cities either held or under attack by rebel forces.
(Frankly, in my view not really in accordiance with UN ressolution at all)

Can we from this deduce the Coalition strategy (because they ofcourse have one, unlike the what the media seems to think) as:

In essence: help the rebellion, with air surport, to oust Ghadafi.


Assuming so:
Do you think that the rebels can oust Ghadafi (with coalition air surport)?

If not, what's the likelyhood of a direct coalition millitary intervention on the ground (disquesed as a "humanitarian intervention", as the UN-ressolution speaks of in vaque terms) to achive the, by me, assumed aim of getting Ghadafi out?


If I am wrong, and the coalition doesn't seek to oust Ghadafi, but only to protect civilians, can somebody explain to me:
*Are we going to stand by as Ghadafi's ground forces maul the rag-tag rebel forces?
*How are we to differentiate, from the air, between civilians getting attacked/abused and armed rebels getting attacked (a legitimate target for goverment forces, I presume)
* When is the no-fly-zone not needed any longer, what's the condition of succes?
* Are we hoping for a political solution in which Ghadafi suddenly turn democratic and makes elections (no chance in hell if you ask me).
* Are we heading for a dissolution of libyia into two states: a western and eastern?
 

Wall83

Member
[ame="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhrjzo_libye-appareillage-et-montee-en-puissance-du-porte-avions-charles-de-gaulle_news"]Dailymotion - Libye : appareillage et montée en puissance du porte-avions Charles de Gaulle - une vidéo News & Politics@@AMEPARAM@@http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video@@AMEPARAM@@video[/ame]

Charles de Gaulle on its way to Lybia. And launches aircrafts.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
If I am wrong, and the coalition doesn't seek to oust Ghadafi, but only to protect civilians, can somebody explain to me:
*Are we going to stand by as Ghadafi's ground forces maul the rag-tag rebel forces?
*How are we to differentiate, from the air, between civilians getting attacked/abused and armed rebels getting attacked (a legitimate target for goverment forces, I presume)
* When is the no-fly-zone not needed any longer, what's the condition of succes?
* Are we hoping for a political solution in which Ghadafi suddenly turn democratic and makes elections (no chance in hell if you ask me).
* Are we heading for a dissolution of libyia into two states: a western and eastern?
Who the hell knows. Its a big mess the US has got themselves into especially when its already fighting two wars and now a third.

I'm a pro-military guy as some members of this forum could probably tell but when we are already fighting two wars, $14 trillion in debt and the military just barely able to keep funding for high priority weapons programs like ships, aircraft and ground forces etc(without a fiscal 2011 defense budget that Congress has yet to pass:mad)...why should the US get involved in Libya? And at what cost at a time when Congress is trying to reduce our spending and deficit?
 

DarthAmerica

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Lets just say that France is the closest NATO member with Russia. There are definitely ties between them that are more then official. It's not a coincidence that France mediated the end to the Georgian War, or that French companies have been getting the fat and juicy contracts with Russian force-wielding agencies.
Actually the closest Western European power to Russia at the moment is Germany.

-DA
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Who the hell knows. Its a big mess the US has got themselves into especially when its already fighting two wars and now a third.

I'm a pro-military guy as some members of this forum could probably tell but when we are already fighting two wars, $14 trillion in debt and the military just barely able to keep funding for high priority weapons programs like ships, aircraft and ground forces etc(without a fiscal 2011 defense budget that Congress has yet to pass:mad)...why should the US get involved in Libya? And at what cost at a time when Congress is trying to reduce our spending and deficit?
Apart from the substantial financial aspects and over extending the U.S. military, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have also effected America's relationship with the Muslim world and have had other implications, not all positive. A nightmare scenario would be a similiar situation as in Libya suddenly popping up elsewhere in the region or in Asia. Under the present circumstances handing over the Libyan operation to the Europeans was a very smart and astute move on the part of the U.S. leadership.

More pressure I feel should be applied on the main players [and wealthiest] in the Arab world such as Saudi and the UAE to do more than talk but actually participate in Libya, which is in their backyard.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Actually the closest Western European power to Russia at the moment is Germany.

-DA
Merkel and Vova do have a lot in common... :D

But on a more serious note, that's rather questionable. This is not to say that Russia and Germany aren't close, (it's not a coincidence that German companies were hired for the construction of new facilities for the largest military training ground in Europe recently) but rather to point out that France has been far more willing to support Russia politically in major ways like the sale of the Mistrals, or the mediation of the Georgian incident.

France is also the one pushing for more aggressive action in Libya (or at least that's what it looks like) so it would make a lot of sense if a back channel request was passed along to Russia not to sabotage the resolution.
 

DarthAmerica

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Merkel and Vova do have a lot in common... :D

But on a more serious note, that's rather questionable. This is not to say that Russia and Germany aren't close, (it's not a coincidence that German companies were hired for the construction of new facilities for the largest military training ground in Europe recently) but rather to point out that France has been far more willing to support Russia politically in major ways like the sale of the Mistrals, or the mediation of the Georgian incident.

France is also the one pushing for more aggressive action in Libya (or at least that's what it looks like) so it would make a lot of sense if a back channel request was passed along to Russia not to sabotage the resolution.

France is struggling to remain relevant in a Europe increasingly dominated by Germany. The French are also trying to shake off the perception of inaction in a region they consider to the theirs. Think Mediteranian Union. Sarkozy is also in political trouble at home and the Libyan distraction serves his interest. With regard to working with the Russians, it is to counter balance Germany. But it is not going to be enough to sever the ties. Russia needs to modernize, Germany needs oil and labor. These are nations with common interest.

No way I buy that France asked Russia to block the resolution. Not when I see Rafales and Mirages pursuing the most overtly aggressive enforcement of UNSC 1973 which has clearly gone far beyond anything even remotely related to a NFZ or protecting "civilians".

-DA
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
France is struggling to remain relevant in a Europe increasingly dominated by Germany. The French are also trying to shake off the perception of inaction in a region they consider to the theirs. Think Mediteranian Union. Sarkozy is also in political trouble at home and the Libyan distraction serves his interest. With regard to working with the Russians, it is to counter balance Germany. But it is not going to be enough to sever the ties. Russia needs to modernize, Germany needs oil and labor. These are nations with common interest.
-DA
While I think you are right that the french millitary actions constitute a french attempt to make a "comeback" in N. Africa (after the disgrace in Tunisia), I think that we must say that so far france has showen that it does have diplomatic and millitary muscles and the willingness to use them.

I don't think France is struggle to remain relevant in Europe, I think that France is quite relevant in europe, and for the moment are showing us why (for good or worse).


<<Off topic>>


In regard to Germany, we know that Germany is the economical powerhouse of Europe, and that in such an extend that the german succes and the "mediterranian" status-quo is pulling the Union in opposite directions, financially.

But Germany has also just re-itterated why it's not a leader and specifically why it's not a leader when it comes to security policies. I think it's obvious to most, that because Germany has a couple of important state elections, Frau Merkel is making Germany behaving like a small child; We have a crisis in Libya and the largest country in europe simply plays dead, followed up with this weird withdrawel of her mediterranian Navy assets, making a lame excuse of sending additional troops to afghanistan (which they had allready promised last year, as far as I know).

On a different note you see the same childish behavior in regard to Japan's nuclear crisis, where Frau Merkel promotes german interior election policies up to a European level. Obviously in a bid to divert pressure on her goverment to the EU( her goverment parties are pro-nuclear, parts of the opposition are fanatically anti Nuclear), anyway the problem is that a lot of European countries are not interested in Frau Merkel's sudden interest in "Stress testing" nuclear plants f.ex. because the east european ones are build in the sovjet area and doesn't meet high standards, (while the standard of the German plants are high - so it's a free round for Merkel, so to speak).
(If you are in doubt of the german hand in the nuclear talk, The sudden nuclear scpticist EU comm. for energy Günther Oettinger is Merkel's party trooper and interestingly enough former president of Baden-Wurttenberg which has one of Germany's oldest nuclear plant - which weren't a problem when Oettinger was president - and one of the states with an important election going on)

And we have the old story of the (very) special gas-relationship between Germany and Russia, in which parts of a large german party is apparently up for sale for Petro-rubles, and in effect large parts of European east policy seems up for sale.


I am a pro-European-Union guy, though the above is one reason why smaller Eropean countries still put all their "security money" on the american horse - a country you can depend on.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
...why should the US get involved in Libya? And at what cost at a time when Congress is trying to reduce our spending and deficit?
My initial posting in this thread also questioning the wisdom of western powers especially US to get involved with the mess in Libya. An overstreching engagement the US still has in Iraq and Afghanistan will put the questions for US willingness to see this all through the end.

Like I said, previously, The Khadafi's Forces still winning in the ground. Do they (US and the Nato) expect they can force Khadafi's out only by Air Strikes ??
Khadafi's already push in the corner, and he's got no other choices but to fight for his survival till the end. US and Nato should before find a way for him gracefully step down whille part of his regime still sharing power with the oppositions to save his face. However West (especially France) from beggining already pushing him out.

Now West must send troops in the ground, and finish the job whatever consequences it might have to US and Nato military readiness and conditions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or, must prepared to face this's will result to be just another part of embarassing moment for US and Nato.
 

DarthAmerica

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There can be no US troops on the ground except clandestine and rescue teams to assist downed aircrews. This mission is "French" owned and must remain so. The US can support the NFZ via ISR/CSAR/TANKING but beyond that the POTUS has already taken a public position that if changed risk 2012 elections.

I wonder how well CdG will do. Sortie rates, on station time, OR and combat persistence ect...

-DA
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think it's obvious to most, that because Germany has a couple of important state elections, Frau Merkel is making Germany behaving like a small child
The CDU will lose those anyway, so that's not really a factor. The only question is whether the next prime minister of Baden-Württemberg will be Red or Green. And no, Fukushima isn't responsible for that. It's just the final push. Merkel is just being her usual indecisive self that she's been for the past six years in power.

However, what you don't address is the fact that Libya (Gaddafi) has been a consistent good trade and security partner for Germany in the past 40 years. Other than that little mishap with La Belle, relations have been good. We're talking billions of investments, we're talking long-time cooperation in training libyan police and army, we're talking Wintershall being the largest foreign oil company in Libya (the Italians are mostly buying, not drilling).

What the current state is is that Germany is increasingly moving away from French positions owing to Sarkozy's rather ambivalent, unpredictable behaviour. This - including the realignment of security positions - isn't really anything new either, and has been going on for the past five to ten years, just like the slow warming between Russia and Germany.

The election factor is really coming down in France. Sarkozy was trying to appear as a strongman - and to divert from domestic problems - to prevent good results for FN, PS and FdG in the cantonal elections last sunday (something he failed at), and in the presidential elections next year.

while the standard of the German plants are high
Erm... no.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
The CDU will lose those anyway, so that's not really a factor.
Really? I have never seen a political party "surrender".
Ofcourse the elections and general political standings of CDU and the liberal party is on the mind of Merkel and I can tell you that in many EU countries the "180 degrees" CDU have made on nuclear power as well as the withdrawel from Med. Nato forces is seen as nothing more than electional positioning.

Electional positioning is fair and OK, but the problem with Merkel is that she exports it to the EU via her faithfull, newborn-nuclear-scepticist Oettinger. And the NATO thing has caused Germany's NATO credibility to take a dent, as far as I can see.
Now this won't be the first a EU nation does this, but germany isn't Belgium, Luxemburg, Sweden or Denmark but Europes largest, by far, country and economy, and I think Germany needs to face that responsibility.


However, what you don't address is the fact that Libya (Gaddafi) has been a consistent good trade and security partner for Germany in the past 40 years. Other than that little mishap with La Belle, relations have been good. We're talking billions of investments, we're talking long-time cooperation in training libyan police and army, we're talking Wintershall being the largest foreign oil company in Libya (the Italians are mostly buying, not drilling).
Well isn't that shamefull? Though I am sure that Germany isn't the only European country that have dealt with Ghadafi, who amoung many dirty deeds counts a Pan-Am and likely a UTA airline bombing.
And to get a little bit back to topic, the war in Libya is likely the result of a total breakdown of a rotten, amoral and shamefull western policy towards the greater middle east, in which "we" have surported, befriended and kept our hand under some of the most dispicable dictators and despots in this world.



What the current state is is that Germany is increasingly moving away from French positions owing to Sarkozy's rather ambivalent, unpredictable behaviour. This - including the realignment of security positions - isn't really anything new either, and has been going on for the past five to ten years, just like the slow warming between Russia and Germany.
Agree. Though I don't think it's "Sarko" it's partly a general trend; the center of mass in Europe has shifted east since the fall of the wall, Germany has risen in importance while France and especially Italy has declined but also that a new generation of Germans leads a more national oriented policy than the post-war periode's more altruistic policy.


"The election factor is really coming down in France"
Agree, I am not saying France should be a rolemodel for anyone.



Regarding the nuclear plants, I have absolute faith in the german plants.
But I am also one of those that thinks that the Fukushima I crisis, underlines the high security and relative harmlessness of Nuclear energy.
F.eks. the media is going berserk because there is a "25 times the limit value of Cs-130 in sea water (absolutely not a problem)" that two workers got less than the eqvivalent of 200 mSv radiation dosis etc.
The problem is that few in the public have any idea what 200mSv is. For comparison an average dane get's about 4mSv a year in natural background and induced radiation. I have never heard anybody think that's a problem or is a significant reason for cancer etc.
Another comparison is that 1 CT Scan is equal to about 1mSv.

The two workers have got something like 50 times the yearly natural dosis of a dane, that's probably not healthy, neither is smoking cigarrettes, inhale exhaust, eat lead polluted fish etc.

The old rule of thumb: 1mSv ~ 10 hours of your life, would suggest that our japaneese workers have lost less than 2000 hours or 83 days.
 
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