The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

1805

New Member
The RN is going to be restricted in what it can afford to do over the next few years, but I do think is should put as much resources as it can into showing the flag, not to match some non existent Chinese imperialism, but to promote trade/exports.

Not just joint exercises and visits, but virtually all procurement should be seen as an opportunity to: export or counter trade to achieve exports or strategic joint venture (particularly Brazil/India). If something does not look like it will be exportable we really shouldn’t be trying to develop it in the UK. All in the past, but why didn’t we share the CVF carrier design with India (even Brazil) as well as France? I would put virtually everything up for sale, so buyers have the option to buy: new, slightly used or second-hand or combination (car firms do this creating a demo fleet/near new market). The RN can then back fill the orders.

This is important to help exports/reduce unit cost and maintain industrial infrastructure, but vital for the RN to help its image. The RN does not look like it has fared well out of the defence review, some of this can be put down to Afghanistan but it also needs to ask itself how is it viewed by the British people and Government. Yes people are proud of it but how relevant is it to people’s lives? In London Boris is pushing to triple the number of Special Constables not to use them as cheap police (probably some of that though) but to help with the profile of the Met; If most people know someone in the police it will help break down barriers. Maybe the RN should take a similar approach, expand the role of the RNR; ensure all ships in home waters have a high percentage of RNR and smaller ships like the MCMV just a skeleton regular crew. It may also save some money.

Trade and exports are obviously hugely important to the Coalition Government; the current trade mission to China follows a similar visit to India and will be a theme of this government. When Thatcher came to power, the mandarins in the Foreign Office looked down on trade and saw it on the same level as consular services; she reverses this and put it at the highest political levels. I suspect the RN takes the same approach, why not let suppliers pay commissions/bonus to RN officers that achieve sales….a modern day prize system?

Huge export deals done with Typhoon (Tornado before them) help the RAF’s case. I struggle to find anything similar in the RN. We have spent billions on: missiles, torpedoes and ships, that no one has bought. In the behind the scenes battles over the last few months the RN needs to ask who’s side was BAE and why?

The RN should remember that Coalition has been fairly public in stating if it could have cancelled the QE/PW it would have. Construction because it’s cheaper to build than cancel is not a sound basis for their future. Will there be lingering resentment of them in the Government? The CVA-01 cause was not helped by carriers association with the Suez Crisis.
 

Repulse

New Member
In London Boris is pushing to triple the number of Special Constables not to use them as cheap police (probably some of that though) but to help with the profile of the Met; If most people know someone in the police it will help break down barriers. Maybe the RN should take a similar approach, expand the role of the RNR; ensure all ships in home waters have a high percentage of RNR and smaller ships like the MCMV just a skeleton regular crew. It may also shave some money.
I agree that the RN needs to win over the public and remind them of their importance in protecting the security and wealth of this country. One thing I would be keen on seeing is a new 'City Class' patrol / light frigate vessel which would replace the Hunt, Sandown and P2000 classes, each closely linked to a major UK city and where possible based there for a significant amount of their time and partly manned by local RNR. This would be the backbone of a new RN.
 

1805

New Member
I agree that the RN needs to win over the public and remind them of their importance in protecting the security and wealth of this country. One thing I would be keen on seeing is a new 'City Class' patrol / light frigate vessel which would replace the Hunt, Sandown and P2000 classes, each closely linked to a major UK city and where possible based there for a significant amount of their time and partly manned by local RNR. This would be the backbone of a new RN.
Great idea. I think warships should to be seen in as many UK ports as possible, (they don't have to dock) and do open days, support local events etc. I remember working in Canary Wharf and seeing ships coming up to Greenwich, they looked great and attracted a lot of attention even from the non naval minded.

In fact I remember seeing a Burke Class in Ibiza, they look much more impressive anchored in a harbour than alongside a dock hidden away in a naval base.

I really do think we should focus on numbers a buy and off the self 2,500 frigate like the KD Lekiu.
 

Repulse

New Member
I really do think we should focus on numbers a buy and off the self 2,500 frigate like the KD Lekiu.
Interesting choice, but I think it would be too expensive an option as I would not see these vessels replacing either the T45, 23 or 26 which would be high intensity combat ships and escorts to carrier / amphibous task groups. Something like the Holland class, BMT Venator or BAM Maritime Action Ship would be my choice.
 

1805

New Member
Interesting choice, but I think it would be too expensive an option as I would not see these vessels replacing either the T45, 23 or 26 which would be high intensity combat ships and escorts to carrier / amphibous task groups. Something like the Holland class, BMT Venator or BAM Maritime Action Ship would be my choice.
I think its based on a fairly modular design, the cost is going to come from engine/weapons/systems choice. So I suspect it could be very cheap as its basically an off the shelf design. I would only see a 57mm gun and a Wildcat and maybe fitted for but not with, CAMM & Phalanx. If we end up with c8 T26 and 6 T45, 12 of these would be quite useful. As the T23 are still quite youthful I would push the T26 back until a carrier is safely in services with something fixed wing flying off it, before I started down the route of £500m ship class.

Occupy the yards with cheap patrol frigates £80m, which maximises employment/£ spent. These are around the size of ship we have had some export sucess with.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
I think its based on a fairly modular design, the cost is going to come from engine/weapons/systems choice. So I suspect it could be very cheap as its basically an off the shelf design. I would only see a 57mm gun and a Wildcat and maybe fitted for but not with, CAMM & Phalanx. If we end up with c8 T26 and 6 T45, 12 of these would be quite useful. As the T23 are still quite youthful I would push the T26 back until a carrier is safely in services with something fixed wing flying off it, before I started down the route of £500m ship class.

Occupy the yards with cheap patrol frigates £80m, which maximises employment/£ spent. These are around the size of ship we have had some export sucess with.
One of the primary RN roles is the protection of sea-lanes against both high-end threats (state on state) and the more common asymmetrical threats associated with crime/terrorism. We all accept we need enough high-end assets (FFG/DDG) to protect the ARG in time of major conflict, plus a few extra to protect UK waters. The RN hopefully has now moved on from the Cold War mentality and draws from its WWII experience and invests in a larger fleet of cheaper Corvettes capable of global reach, which can deal with piracy, drug smugglers and where necessary host drop-in MCM modules. So from my perspective it should be a base level vessel, with the following minimum capabilities:

Quick firing minimum 37mm+ gun (possible option new 40mm Anglo-French calibre) capable of dealing with small craft (piracy, small armed vessels in the littoral environment)

Limited AAW self-defense (RAM, CAMM or two six-packed Starstreak mounted port and starboard)

Be able to host one/two of the new armoured and armed raiding craft used by the RM for ship interdiction/riverine work

Capable of carrying a RM boarding party

Capable of operating / transiting in a blue/green sea environment

Capable of keeping up with the fleet (minimum 18 knots)

Capable of hosting a rotary UAV or landing a Wildcat

Capable of being fitted with the current MCM ROV and associated support, including RN diving team.

Around 1800 - 2000t displacement

UK assigned vessels 70-30% crew ratio of RNR to RN, supported by RMR. Long term overseas deployed assets: 80-20% crew ratio of RN/RM to RNR.

A stretched River Class should fit the bill, build a minimum of 12 replacing both Hunt/Sandown.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What you guys are talking about is very simiailr to the RN's planned Future Mine Countermeasures/Hydrographic/Patrol Vessel (FMHPV). The BMT Venator® minor warship concept is an interesting solution to this requirement.

BMT Defence Services - BMT Venator

I doubt the RN could generate any sort of significant ground swell in opinion to restore it to its former and/or fading glory via such a local basing project. The only thing that could do that is the Argentines...
 

riksavage

Banned Member
According to Janes the The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) is to launch a maritime unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) capability demonstration programme to explore performance characteristics for a medium-sized rotary-wing UAV (in the 1,000-3,000 kg all-up-weight class). Sounds like the RR powered fire/sea-scout to me (take off weight 1,430 kg)?

This should prove ideal substitute for a rotary manned platform on a small Covette/OPV class and my also have limited potential as a MASC platform allowing smaller vessels to host a decent surveillance capability to support littoral operations. Also something needs to fill the dog house on the T26 platform - unless we witness another fitted for not with approach!

About time, the RN as usual is way behind the curve in utilsing such technology compared to the RAF/army.
 

1805

New Member
What you guys are talking about is very simiailr to the RN's planned Future Mine Countermeasures/Hydrographic/Patrol Vessel (FMHPV). The BMT Venator® minor warship concept is an interesting solution to this requirement.

BMT Defence Services - BMT Venator

I doubt the RN could generate any sort of significant ground swell in opinion to restore it to its former and/or fading glory via such a local basing project. The only thing that could do that is the Argentines...
No, I'm talking about a more warlike light frigate which can provide the numbers required for all the OPV activity and then if stationed in more hostile enviroments can look after itself if say a randon SSM was fired from the shore. So fitted with a 57mm and hanger for a Wildcat, but able to land heavier, and then options for CAMM & Phalanx when outside UK waters. 25 knots and 10,000m range. This sort of ship should be attractive on the export market and cheap to build. More of a La Fayette than an OPV. Yes the MCM might be an option but we already have sufficient Hunts/Sandowns (I could see them cut down to just 8 anyway).

They would suppliement Type 23s and delay the need to build T26 until 2028+; hopefully by then at least one carrier will be safely in services. If the carriers don't get through it would make sense to converts the T26 design into T46 (actually they would then be a T83?) with an more all round capabality (ideally with a Absalon type flex deck).
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
No, I'm talking about a more warlike light frigate which can provide the numbers required for all the OPV activity and then if stationed in more hostile enviroments can look after itself if say a randon SSM was fired from the shore.
So what’s your problem with the BMT Venator? In response to your check list:

So fitted with a 57mm and
76mm OK?

hanger for a Wildcat,
Check, its got an extendable hangar.

but able to land heavier,
Check

and then options for CAMM
Check, even pretty swish BSGesque video of it in action.

Phalanx when outside UK waters.
No mention of it but sure it could be fitted through pretty superfluous with CAAM and the two 30mm guns.

25 knots and 10,000m range.
Check for speed but current design range is 5000n miles at 18kts or 7000n miles at 12kts. Your range requirement seems a bit extreme. The world isn’t THAT big…

Please for the love of god and all that is holy. If you want to comment on something someone else has said please, please read what they’ve said and/or check out their supporting link. The BMT Venator more than matches your requirements. You would have known that if you’d bothered with the link provided.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
The BMT Venater looks ideal.

I would like to see a small hanger, subject to a rotary UAV becoming operational.

I sincerely pray CAMM works, it has the potential to tick so many boxes covering land, sea and air applications in an affordable package that requires minimal human interface. Quad-packs can hopefully replace the need for Aster 15 reducing the RN's footprint to CAMM and Aster 30.

Unit coat at say 400 million should allow for at least 12 hulls for sea lane protection, MCM and littoral patrol duties.
 

Repulse

New Member
The BMT Venter looks ideal.

I would like to see a small hanger, subject to a rotary UAV becoming operational.

I sincerely pray CAMM works, it has the potential to tick so many boxes covering land, sea and air applications in an affordable package that requires minimal human interface. Quad-packs can hopefully replace the need for Aster 15 reducing the RN's footprint to CAMM and Aster 30.

Unit coat at say 400 million should allow for at least 12 hulls for sea lane protection, MCM and littoral patrol duties.
I personally like the Venator concept, but I've seen criticisms elsewhere. These are mainly around the lack of BMT experience in warship production and also people saying it is too heavy weight for the expected role and would be a drain on first rate escort numbers (and an OPV would be a better fit).

I heard the standard price would be around 100 mil GBP, more with CAMM. If we replaced (in the long term) all the current MCMVs, OPVs, P2000s and the drop in first class frigates I would hope 24+ vessels would be achievable.

I wonder if BMT / BAE would consider building one for free like DCNS is doing for the French Navy with Gowind.
 

1805

New Member
So what’s your problem with the BMT Venator? In response to your check list:



76mm OK?



Check, its got an extendable hangar.



Check



Check, even pretty swish BSGesque video of it in action.



No mention of it but sure it could be fitted through pretty superfluous with CAAM and the two 30mm guns.



Check for speed but current design range is 5000n miles at 18kts or 7000n miles at 12kts. Your range requirement seems a bit extreme. The world isn’t THAT big…

Please for the love of god and all that is holy. If you want to comment on something someone else has said please, please read what they’ve said and/or check out their supporting link. The BMT Venator more than matches your requirements. You would have known that if you’d bothered with the link provided.
I stand corrected, although when I have looked at this link before, I thought it was unnecessarily large. On a general point can you tone down the language, it doesn’t offend me, but you helped to get this thread locked before and it is very popular.
 

kev 99

Member
The RN will never fit Camm to survey/hydrographic/Mine counttermeasures ships which is what BMT Venator is aimed at, nor should it, it would make them completely unaffordable.
 
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Repulse

New Member
The RN will never fit Camm to survey/hydrographic/Mince counttermeasures ships which is what BMT is aimed at, nor should it, it would make them completely unaffordable.
Perhaps fitted for but not with CAMM... I like the way the Danish Navy has done these things, basically allowing ships to be easily (and quickly) adapted to fulfil different roles. Perhaps having all the sensors in a central mast would be a good idea too. Manufacturing new sensors / missiles in a time of crisis is a lot quicker than devising / constructing a new class of ship.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Perhaps fitted for but not with CAMM... I like the way the Danish Navy has done these things, basically allowing ships to be easily (and quickly) adapted to fulfil different roles. Perhaps having all the sensors in a central mast would be a good idea too. Manufacturing new sensors / missiles in a time of crisis is a lot quicker than devising / constructing a new class of ship.
CAMM will need a pretty good quality radar to back it up to be useful so that's an expensive "for/not with" requirement. Better to fit them out for the mission, give them a useful secondary role of anti piracy/drugs/customs "stop and search" capability with a decent bow gun, some optically trained cannon and one or more CIWS systems.

I say fit with CIWS because a) someone might shoot at them and b) they're brilliant for discouraging chaps in small boats with RPGs.

There are some decent quality and cheap mounts for Starstreak etc if you want an affordable VSHORAD capability with a secondary guided anti armour role.

In the main, avoid gold plating and mission creep like the plague.

Ian
 

1805

New Member
CAMM will need a pretty good quality radar to back it up to be useful so that's an expensive "for/not with" requirement. Better to fit them out for the mission, give them a useful secondary role of anti piracy/drugs/customs "stop and search" capability with a decent bow gun, some optically trained cannon and one or more CIWS systems.

I say fit with CIWS because a) someone might shoot at them and b) they're brilliant for discouraging chaps in small boats with RPGs.

There are some decent quality and cheap mounts for Starstreak etc if you want an affordable VSHORAD capability with a secondary guided anti armour role.

In the main, avoid gold plating and mission creep like the plague.

Ian
There are two different views on what these ships would do. One is the exact C3 brief and the other a true light frigate that can do the OPV role. A KD Lekiu based ship (rather than Ventor as they are tried and tested off the shelf) with 57mm DP gun, CAMM and Phalanx would be as capable at dealing with the type of SSM/air threat we are likely to encounter as a T26, or not far short.

The RN is in a hole and needs to make some hard desicion, numbers are important. If they sold PW and 2 T45, radically prune the RFA, MCM and assault forces they should be able to get the Treasury onboard to get the QE & 40 Rafales in service for 2016.

You could then build 3-4 T46 2023-2033, instead of the T26. If we have spent all that money on Sampson/PAAMS lets focus on it.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
There are two different views on what these ships would do. One is the exact C3 brief and the other a true light frigate that can do the OPV role. A KD Lekiu based ship (rather than Ventor as they are tried and tested off the shelf) with 57mm DP gun, CAMM and Phalanx would be as capable at dealing with the type of SSM/air threat we are likely to encounter as a T26, or not far short.

The RN is in a hole and needs to make some hard desicion, numbers are important. If they sold PW and 2 T45, radically prune the RFA, MCM and assault forces they should be able to get the Treasury onboard to get the QE & 40 Rafales in service for 2016.

You could then build 3-4 T46 2023-2033, instead of the T26. If we have spent all that money on Sampson/PAAMS lets focus on it.
Why buy Rafales? From the figures from the Brazil fighter compete, Rafale was far and away the most expensive of the lot.

I'd post a link if this board would let me..

Basically if you're trying to save cash, buy SHhornet.

There's no chance of getting the QE in service with anything with a tailhook by 2016 as it'll take longer than that to fit the thing out with cats and traps - even if you beamed in free fighters from the planet Christmas, the platform to launch 'em off won't exist. Given that, and the fact that the prices for the Raf have all ranged dangerously close to the F35, what's the gain here? Why buy an obsolescent fighter that's almost as expensive as the one we have a workshare in, which is already flying with a strong AESA radar and is VLO?

Not getting it on Rafale...

Ian
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Basically if you're trying to save cash, buy SHhornet.

Ian
And have to buy all the fighters you're ever going to need in one go, before production ends (bang go any short-term savings), or buy an initial batch & some time in the future have to top it up with a batch of a different type, lumbering you with the costs of operating two types (& bang go any long-term savings).
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
And have to buy all the fighters you're ever going to need in one go, before production ends (bang go any short-term savings), or buy an initial batch & some time in the future have to top it up with a batch of a different type, lumbering you with the costs of operating two types (& bang go any long-term savings).
maybe not, after all, I'm pretty sure that the USN would do the dame deal for the RN that it it did for the RAAF. if push came to shove. ie they interrupted their own run so that RAAF could get in early, and we could also get the same relief if iwe needed to up the numbers again.

the main embuggerance is multiple types in service...
 
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