The one light at the end of what has proved to be a very dark tunnel is the UOR process, it has transformed the UK land element in double quick time. Sad it can't do the same for the Navy, then again buying a new rifle does not compare to a 7k tonne frigate.
The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter overlander
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Actually I think it could help with a general review of the entire procurement process. We just seem to have to many people involved, I think this slows the process as much as anything and no single point of accountability. All the delay and searching for perfection and we end up as Swerve puts it often with something less capable off the shelf.
I can't believe people on the inside cannot see these disasters happening, but no one seems to be able or accountable to stop them. The FSC has similarities to FRES, a huge amout of money has been spent on what will eventually be a fairly standard product.
Nimrod is amazing what is it about the Comet/Nimrod it should have been names Albatross. It seems to have done more than its fair share to wreck the British aircraft industry. Straight after AEW they repeat the whole mess with MR4.
There is one absolutely crucial difference: MRA4 works.
Nimrod AEW was trying to do something which turned out to be unachievable with the technology they were using, within an airframe of that size. It was misconceived from the start.
The original Nimrod MPA & elint aircraft have given sterling service for many years, & could still be doing so, if they'd been properly looked after. That they haven't been isn't due to Nimrod being Nimrod, but organisational faults - same as with the decisions that led to the Nimrod AEW fiasco, & the bungled execution of the ultimately successful (until canned for political reasons) MRA4.
There are some interesting parallels between Nimrod and the Australian Seasprite episode. Ironically we use Nimrod and the HMS Triumph event as examples of how not to do projects
The USN living breathing example are with the San Antinios...
t68
Well-Known Member
Sorry to go off topic but i was not sure where to put it
With the recent upheaval in the UK defence budget and new defence pacts with the French how likely will would it that the UK to opt out of the FPDA.
FPDA does not specify that the UK will come to each other’s members’ aid, but with all the problems faced by the MOD will the pacific region see less of RN, come to think of it when was the last time that the RN visited Australia. I found part info on the recent training ex of Exercise Bersama Padu 2010 (BP10), looking in the MOD site finds no information relating to the ex but Google brings up a host of info relating to Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand and Australia but no information on the UK involvement besides what is written on who participated.
Major military exercise kicks off in Malaysia - Defence News - Department of Defence
With the recent upheaval in the UK defence budget and new defence pacts with the French how likely will would it that the UK to opt out of the FPDA.
FPDA does not specify that the UK will come to each other’s members’ aid, but with all the problems faced by the MOD will the pacific region see less of RN, come to think of it when was the last time that the RN visited Australia. I found part info on the recent training ex of Exercise Bersama Padu 2010 (BP10), looking in the MOD site finds no information relating to the ex but Google brings up a host of info relating to Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand and Australia but no information on the UK involvement besides what is written on who participated.
Major military exercise kicks off in Malaysia - Defence News - Department of Defence
UK is pushing for stronger ties with India, including regular exercises. RAF are currently in India at the moment. This increased level of engagement could include FPDA personnel and actually strengthen the groups ability to work together and ramp up the exchanges from annual TEWT's to something more sophisticated.
The UK may be suffering a ten year gap in Carrier capability, but the county's strategic lift, with C17 and future A330 tanker/lift means the UK retains the ability to deploy rapid response forces and typhoon east of Suez.
The recent French agreement won't change this, the UK sees Asia as a critical business and investment destination.
Two questions:
Q1: Are your words that I've highlighted in bold, speculative?
Q2: Are there plans or new developments in size and scope of existing FPDA exercises, via an increase in UK participation?
From my perspective, I don't think that there will be any significant change in UK's FPDA exercise footprint. I have not heard of changes, so please explain.
IMO, UK is pushing for stronger ties with India is separate from FPDA. I see no relation between the two issues.
I've made no comment on about UK strategic or tactical policy as a result of the alliance entente, my responses have been specifically restricted to the impact of exchanging technology and intelligence material where diplomatic and capability firewalls are concerned.
UK's partnership with France will not result in French officers being able to enter facilities, let alone be embedded like the rest of the 5I community.
France also sees Asia PACRIM as of gorwing importance, hence the renewal of her maritime treaty with Australia which allows us to embed officers on her vessels - and vice versa.
Nobody is expecting to see any major change in political will and strategic geopolitical intent, they are expecting however that the UK will ensure /start firewalling some of the discussions and arrangements - otherwise that would result in taps going off. France is not held in the same regard as the UK at the arrangement level.
I doubt there will be change, and from what we're seeing they won't be amping up offshore roles just because of the partbering shift. Both France and UK have significant procurement problems and this is designed to save money. UK advice is that they're experiencing 30% delays across projects, the French apparently are experiencing higher rates (according to the UK)
They won't be spending money offshore for training and awareness under the current circumctances
There is no relationship. as you know, FPDA has got nothing to do with India and it would change the complexion and intent of the alliance and arrangements, there is no interest in any of the members having another CENTO or SEATO. The malas especially would be quite resistant to this.
On top of which the relationship with Indonesia for all regional members has changed considerably.- FPDA has changed in intent over the last few years.
The FPDA was born out or post war uncertainty, rise of communism, domino theory coupled with the UK’s retreat west of Suez. India post partition looked to Russia for support and dabbled in Marxist theory and very much a remained non-aligned nation during the Cold War.
The days of UK, Aus and Kiwi battalions, being based on the Malaysian Peninsula on a permanent basis are long gone, so has the Indo threat to Borneo. However the FPDA still proves a useful opportunity to maintain relations at the planning /liaison levels. All members still sends young thrusters to Warminster to complete junior and senior staff courses (as does Pakistan and India).
The UK’s growing cross-training exercises with India highlighted by ongoing UK / Indian air-force exercises in Kalaikunda, West Bengal (Indian fighter pilots are flying against RAF Typhoons) shows the UK’s desire to broaden its relations beyond the usual suspects. If such exercises are to become an annual event, then why not invite FPDA observers? We are all Commonwealth, we share a similar military heritage and at the command levels use English. I’m not talking about India becoming a part of the group, but times have clearly changed and India wants to cross-train and engage more with the Western alliance.
The agreement with France is limited to clearly defined objectives and is designed to compliment, not usurp existing relationships. FPDA is totally separate; the same way France's relationship with West African nations won't change as a result of UK defence cooperation.
The world is no longer based on two conflicting ideologies (communism vs. capitalism), so sensible governments have to start looking to expand their alliances in an era of growing uncertainty. The next world war could kick-off in Asia as growing powers fight for dominance. Asia is a huge trading partner for the UK and they need to buid strategic alliances - India represents a logical choice.
The days of UK, Aus and Kiwi battalions, being based on the Malaysian Peninsula on a permanent basis are long gone, so has the Indo threat to Borneo. However the FPDA still proves a useful opportunity to maintain relations at the planning /liaison levels. All members still sends young thrusters to Warminster to complete junior and senior staff courses (as does Pakistan and India).
The UK’s growing cross-training exercises with India highlighted by ongoing UK / Indian air-force exercises in Kalaikunda, West Bengal (Indian fighter pilots are flying against RAF Typhoons) shows the UK’s desire to broaden its relations beyond the usual suspects. If such exercises are to become an annual event, then why not invite FPDA observers? We are all Commonwealth, we share a similar military heritage and at the command levels use English. I’m not talking about India becoming a part of the group, but times have clearly changed and India wants to cross-train and engage more with the Western alliance.
The agreement with France is limited to clearly defined objectives and is designed to compliment, not usurp existing relationships. FPDA is totally separate; the same way France's relationship with West African nations won't change as a result of UK defence cooperation.
The world is no longer based on two conflicting ideologies (communism vs. capitalism), so sensible governments have to start looking to expand their alliances in an era of growing uncertainty. The next world war could kick-off in Asia as growing powers fight for dominance. Asia is a huge trading partner for the UK and they need to buid strategic alliances - India represents a logical choice.
I suspect the UK's interest in India at present is focused on winning defence contracts, which are currently dominated by Russia and Israel. One would hope that the UK saw something more strategic as they are clearly one of the global powers of the future.
India has been on everyones radar since 1997 when they were first seriously identified as an emerging superpower, unfort they fell off the screen when they copped a financial beating that and subsequent year and it set them back.
India has a love hate relationship with the UK, they highly value the officer development and regimental/force structure across all services, but then you also come across the issue of anti-colonialism which still has some legs in some quarters. The india/pakistan issue also slips into play here and UK cops a flogging for the separation and kashmir etc... its not a mater of whether its accurate, it just "is".
Ironically within all the twists and turns of legacy british attitude, russian kit and a sense of obligation in some quarters to stay with the russians, they do seem to have a closer relationship bubbling below the surface than they let on - but the more robust members of the Jai Hind brigade are happy to bring that undone.
I spent a few years working on projects in India, and my "throw away" experience was that at a military and trade level they wanted to up their relationship with the west. I started stating this on some of the indian forums (Proton and BR) and at the time got a complete belting by the pro Russians and Jai Hinds. I even stated at the time (3-4 years ago) that the Indians intended to start with non "combat" buys such as ASW aircarft to replace their Ilyushins and then progress to combat platforms. That has basically come to pass
It was inevitable that the UK would lift its profile with India, esp as they've seen that the americans have been able to make inroads into territory where they probably thought that the Indians would play them mercilessly.
as a sidebar - the odds are looking to shorten in favour of a Typhoon sale to India
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gf said:
According to media reports the Indian Airforce have been flying RAF Typhoons during the recent exchange, and during the technical evaluation it came top over the other offerings. Down side it is the most expensive up-front platform, however BAE et al are pushing savings on through life costs, they are proposing a Saudi type deal setting up production in India. All could change following US Presidents visit as I'm sure his delegation are pushing F16/18's very, very hard.
Back to the RN, they are keen to host more visits by the Indian Navy and by 2020 both should have active carriers so expect more joint training with both the UK and France. Again from a UK perspective India represents an obvious partner - rank system, English language, command and control hierarchy are very similar. UK military units remain affiliated to their Indian counterparts, if you have look at the Indian Army or UK Army websites they list respective affiliations going back to pre-partition. Whilst the Indian left has issues, at the military level there are no such concerns and the building blocks are already in place.
If the PRC continues to follow Mussolini's example and try and turn the South China Sea in to its private lake then we can expect to see some unusual bed fellows. Over the next few years Vietnam will play and increasingly important role as an important strategic Western partner. Cam-Ram bay will once again witness increasing numbers of US/NATO vessels.
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weasel1962
New Member
Re:
Reading the telegraph and other news reports about how the Typhoon has come up tops in the technical assessment reminds me of the news reports of how the EJ-200 engine "won" the LCA engine order.
Won't place too much on media reports when it comes to Indian procurement.
Most people forget that the original intent behind the MRCA was a low cost single engined fighter. The Indians told Boeing that the F-18 wasn't wanted primarily because they weren't looking for a twin-engined jet and it was only through Bush that the F-18 got considered. Same applies to the Typhoon.
The typhoon aesa radar isn't flying and latest tranche of captors are still mechanically scanned with no guarantee it will actually enter service on schedule and meeting requirements. With a prime requirement being an aesa radar, that's a big minus vis a vis the Typhoon and that' not even counting cost.
Rather than speculate at this late stage, I'll wait for the selection which should be due by March 2011.
Reading the telegraph and other news reports about how the Typhoon has come up tops in the technical assessment reminds me of the news reports of how the EJ-200 engine "won" the LCA engine order.
Won't place too much on media reports when it comes to Indian procurement.
Most people forget that the original intent behind the MRCA was a low cost single engined fighter. The Indians told Boeing that the F-18 wasn't wanted primarily because they weren't looking for a twin-engined jet and it was only through Bush that the F-18 got considered. Same applies to the Typhoon.
The typhoon aesa radar isn't flying and latest tranche of captors are still mechanically scanned with no guarantee it will actually enter service on schedule and meeting requirements. With a prime requirement being an aesa radar, that's a big minus vis a vis the Typhoon and that' not even counting cost.
Rather than speculate at this late stage, I'll wait for the selection which should be due by March 2011.
weasel said:
Also there's the dreaded 'brown envelope factor', let's hope however recent deals that went south in the public domain (Bofors) will reduce the likelihood of any further behind the scenes incentivised purchases dictating the final decision!
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What was that recent US example? An Embraer model they tried to cram so much comms & surveillance equipment into that it couldn't fly, or something similarly silly, IIRC. I think they canned it rather than start again with a bigger airframe. Bad example of mission creep.
I don't know if its that wierd, Vietnam has had long running tensions with China long before and after the "american war". It will continue to be a thorn in china's expansions and area development. Spratley disputed islands is a hotspot, as they are disputed against many parties.
The last Sino-Vietnamese spat (see link) ended in a very bloody nose for the PRC (some estimates reckon they lost over 200,000). I' sure they still hold a grudge.
Chinese Invasion of Vietnam
The Vietnamese represent a potential strong and resourceful friend - the 'Prussians of Asia'. Their economy will soon be the strongest in the area usurping Thailand.
Western Navies (RN included) should seize on their new openness and make use of the excellent facilities at Cam-Ram bay. The one positive legacy left by the US/Russian's is a superb military infrastructure.
I would like to see increasing numbers of US/European//Asian ships visiting the country. There's a very large Japanese expat community in HCM, so Jap DDG's visiting the South would be nice to see on a more regular basis.
The "West" is engaged. RAN and ADF have been quite engaged with Vietnam. They're looking at running some of their people through def college.
The Viets have had a very positive relationship with Australia over the last 10 years, with the Aust Govt building various bits of infrastructure over that period.
RAN has actually been one of the unsung diplomats in SEA Asia, and can take come very serious credit for the Japanese Navy kicking goals on our behalf over issues of military technology exchange