Malaysian Army/Land forces discussions

[Ananda]

In more recent times, the TNI-AD has followed the same route in going with a 90mm Scorpion. Perhaps Ananda will be able to clarify if these are meant for the recce or fire support role? In my opinion, if meant to be used purely for the recce role, vehicles should not be armed with anything bigger than a 25mm/30mm gun. In fact many will say that even a 25mm/30mm gun is an overkill and that a 7.62mm/40mm AGL combo will do.

Officailly for Both with emphasis on Fire Support, however this does not mean TNI AD was satisfied with the performance of 90mm Scorpion. Afterall the 90mm Cockerill guns Scorpion versions was bought as compensation for TNI AD main fire support dream (in the early 90's) which are Leo 1.

Officially Leopard 1 was fell from transactions due to monetary reasons. Still after looking the acquistion value offered by the German and the 'real' acquistion costs of Scorpion family..it's not much different.
Thus come out another 'classicall' story that heavy MBT were not suitable for Tropical conditions of Indonesia, in which the MBT's will be bog down in the soft-wet tropical indonesian ground conditions. Well it's redicolous, but the Army has to come out with some story why they pass out chances for getting real MBT to dinky light weight recce tanks.

Some rumours (remembered the Scorpions family were bough by mid 90's still in Soeharto era) stated this purchase much related to the political clout in that days. The German tought they can get a deal by clossing in to Habibie's (Vice President that time), whille the Brit's know more in the games and clossing in to Soeharto's children which many of them were London's frequent residences. Well this is the time when we bought many British origin weapons in which some of them not really the Armed Forces preferential (like Scorpions and Hawk 100/200).

In short the disatisfaction with Belgian Cockerill 90mm guns off course unofficially, however with TNI AD preferential to use old AMX 13 as their main Fire Support Tanks say the obvious.

 

[Chino]

Singapore manufactures modern ammo for the AMX-13's 76mm gun including APFSDS, IIRC.

Considering the proximity of Indonesia and Singapore, would it had been possible that we sold ammo to TNI?

It is probably cheaper than the 90mm Cockerill ammo which you'd have to buy from ... England?

Or perhaps Indonesia make their own ammo for both the AMX-13 and Scorpion?

 

[Ananda]

Singapore manufactures modern ammo for the AMX-13's 76mm gun including APFSDS, IIRC.

Considering the proximity of Indonesia and Singapore, would it had been possible that we sold ammo to TNI?

It is probably cheaper than the 90mm Cockerill ammo which you'd have to buy from ... England?

Or perhaps Indonesia make their own ammo for both the AMX-13 and Scorpion?

No..up until now the Ammo for AMX still come from French, while Cokcerill 90 mm still come from the manufacturer in Belgium. The only large calibre ammo that's been sourced from Singapore is 155 mm for 155 mm Sing Kinetics Field gun.
Pindad has facility for War Heads Filling Plant up to 155mm, however Pindad has not produce large calibre ammo due to they have not produce large calibre gun. However this soon to be changes since Pindad already make initial production of 105 mm Field Howitzer (with license from Oto Mellara). Thus from their lattest communicate this early month, they're planning to open 105 mm line soon.

Cockerill 90 mm guns in TNI are installed in Scorpion and PT 76 (mod), and Pindad plan to installed them also on their Gun Armoured Vehicles versions. Most of AMX 13 that's still operational I believe already used 105 mm guns. However as my repply to Sturm, the performance of Cockerill 90 mm (as fire support function) still in my oppinion much debatable.

 

[STURM]

However this soon to be changes since Pindad already make initial production of 105 mm Field Howitzer (with license from Oto Mellara). Thus from their lattest communicate this early month, they're planning to open 105 mm line soon.

Oto Melara 105mms for the TNI-AD? Interesting. Is it the Model 56? I would have thought that the TNI-AD would be interested in more 155mm's. I recall the TNI-AD getting some Giat Mk 2 Light Guns some years back. I have reservations about towed 155mm's, they're just too BIG and take time to lay, limber and scoot. Of course with the Pegasus and M777 you get a lighter gun with a lower silhouette than say the GHN-45, G-5, FH-77, etc. For the Malaysian army, I believe the way to go is motorised 155mm's.

Ananda, does the TNI-AD operate anything smaller than a 105mm towed gun, perhaps from an Eastern European country? I recalled seeing something that looked like a 76mm mountain pack gun in a photo.

No..up until now the Ammo for AMX still come from French, while Cokcerill 90 mm still come from the manufacturer in Belgium.

A lot of the ammo for Cockerill 90mm users in the past has come from MECAR in Belgium.

However as my repply to Sturm, the performance of Cockerill 90 mm (as fire support function) still in my oppinion much debatable.

I have no idea on the ballistic performance of the 90mm HE round but I would think its usefulness, as DavidMCM pointed out earlier, lies in taking out field fortification/defences and for knocking holes in buildings. Assuming off course nobody is shooting back as most 90mm armed vehicles, the Scorpion included, only have armour that provides protection for up to 7.62mm. The Cockerill 90mm medium pressure gun was essentially a trade off, intended for users that required something lighter and cheaper than a 105mm gun.

 

[Ananda]

Ananda, does the TNI-AD operate anything smaller than a 105mm towed gun, perhaps from an Eastern European country? I recalled seeing something that looked like a 76mm mountain pack gun in a photo.

76 mm I believe from old Yugo's origin. This guns at least from lattest TNI AD sources should be part of arsenal that's been replacing. I supoosed the first batch of Pindad 105 mm (Oto Mellara light weight field guns) supposed to replace them.

The Giat 105 mm light weight guns as far as I can find on sources here is not used by TNI AD, but used by the Marines. This replacing 122 mm Eastern Blocks Field guns. TNI AD still relly with Old Korean - Vietnam war US 105 mm field gun (M-101).

The Pindad 105 mm based on Oto Melara 105/14 mm http://www.otomelara.it/EN/Common/files/OtoMelara/pdf/business/land/artillery/105-14.pdf

I have no idea on the ballistic performance of the 90mm HE round but I would think its usefulness, as DavidMCM pointed out earlier, lies in taking out field fortification/defences and for knocking holes in buildings. Assuming off course nobody is shooting back as most 90mm armed vehicles, the Scorpion included, only have armour that provides protection for up to 7.62mm. The Cockerill 90mm medium pressure gun was essentially a trade off, intended for users that required something lighter and cheaper than a 105mm gun.

Yes I believe you've got point in there. However as fire support especially facing another armoured advissary I think it's usefullness will be limited. Using them against urban insurgencies will be over kill. Using them against Junggle Insurgencies is also limited. That's why In my oppinion as overall fire support it's can only provided limited options.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

No..up until now the Ammo for AMX still come from French, while Cokcerill 90 mm still come from the manufacturer in Belgium.

I understand that TNI also operates the AMX-13 with a different calibre gun (105mm in addition to the 75mm).

 

[Ananda]

I understand that TNI also operates the AMX-13 with a different calibre gun (105mm in addition to the 75mm).

Yes, and most of operational AMX 13 in TNI AD inventories were 105 mm gun. Lattest data from Army sources in here show most 75 mm gun AMX 13 was on phassing out mode.
This 105 mm AMX 13 was the prefer TNI AD main fire support tanks compare to 90 mm newer and younger Scorpion.

I can't show what is the detail performance of Cockerill 90 mm, however with previous users SEA nations (including Malaysia) begin to left Cockerill 90 mm on their new acquistions, I believe show some disatisfactions on the performance of 90 mm Cockerill gun.

In here PINDAD still try to market their Gun Armoured Vehicles under development with 90 mm Cockerill, but no devinitive yet. Still if Pindad try to go ahead with the Gun Versions of their Armoured Vehicles, I do believe 90 mm Cockerill gun is the most that they can mounted. It will not do much except limited fire support, thus perhaps 30 mm Bushmaster type of gun is more preferable in my oppinion.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

The Cockerill's specs are public info. The Mk-3 is the version used for the Scorpion and Sibmas.

CMI: Cockerill Maintenance & Ingénierie: CSE90 - LCTS90 - CT-CV(TM)

The HE-T, HEAT-T, HESH-T and HEAT-TP-T rounds are locally produced in MY. There is also the canister and apfsds rounds which are probably in use as well. The former should be useful against personnel whilst the latter can take out non-mbt targets.

 

[Ananda]

The HE-T, HEAT-T, HESH-T and HEAT-TP-T rounds are locally produced in MY. There is also the canister and apfsds rounds which are probably in use as well. The former should be useful against personnel whilst the latter can take out non-mbt targets.

I Don't know if TNI AD & Marines Cockerill (and I believe also Mk 3 version) in Scorpion and PT-76 (mod) equiped with APFSDS-T. From public sources in here, during exersise they only can be confirmed using HE, HEAT and HESH.

Just wandering if APFSDS-T firing from low or med pressure gun will be any good. I mean if they can't take on old version MBT (T-55, T-62, Leo 1, AMX 30, M-48), what good APFSDS-T for ? Using to non MBT Armoured vehicles will be wasted right ? Afterall it should be done by HEAT which I believe cheaper than APFSDS-T.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

I Don't know if TNI AD & Marines Cockerill (and I believe also Mk 3 version) in Scorpion and PT-76 (mod) equiped with APFSDS-T. From public sources in here, during exersise they only can be confirmed using HE, HEAT and HESH.

Just wandering if APFSDS-T firing from low or med pressure gun will be any good. I mean if they can't take on old version MBT (T-55, T-62, Leo 1, AMX 30, M-48), what good APFSDS-T for ? Using to non MBT Armoured vehicles will be wasted right ? Afterall it should be done by HEAT which I believe cheaper than APFSDS-T.

Interesting but if you look at the CSE-90 brochure, it states a penetration of 100mm RHA (@60 deg 1000m) for the APFSDS (Muzzle velocity or MV @ 1200m/s) with 130mm RHA for the HEAT round (MV @865m/s).

That's probably barely sufficient for frontal hull hits to older T-54s but unlikely for any other MBT. It is however sufficient for most light tanks/APCs/IFVs.

Problem is that many add-on armour tackle HEAT rounds (reactive armour) nowadays that render the penetration way below that of the APFSDS rounds.

 

[STURM]

That's probably barely sufficient for frontal hull hits to older T-54s but unlikely for any other MBT. It is however sufficient for most light tanks/APCs/IFVs.

The SADF Elands that took out some T-54s/55s in Angola back in the 80's, does anyone know what make the 90mm guns were?

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Giat F1 gun in a HS turret. It used to fire only 2 types of ammo, HEAT and HE with an effective range of ~1.5km. The HEAT rounds had a MV of 760 m/s (140mm at 60 deg). I forgot to add that at 0 deg, penetration should be better (~320mm). The HE rounds had a MV of 650 m/s. Giat added canister rounds and an APFSDS round (MV at 1050 m/s) later. Each AML-90 carries 20 x 90mm rounds.

The South African used the F1 for the ratel as well. I think the EBRs used the F2 whilst the AMX-13/90 used the F3.

MY had some AML-90s as well which were procured in the early 70s.

 

[STURM]

I can't show what is the detail performance of Cockerill 90 mm, however with previous users SEA nations (including Malaysia) begin to left Cockerill 90 mm on their new acquistions, I believe show some disatisfactions on the performance of 90 mm Cockerill gun.

We can only guess why the Malaysian army doesn't plan to get more 90mm's - whether its because the 90mms penetrating performance leaves a lot to be desired compared to larger calibre guns or for other reasons. My guess it's because additional 90mm armed vehicles dont fit in the overall scheme of things, that of developing an all arms force, geared to convential warfare.

It's important to bear in mind that the Scorpion and Sibmas were bought during the PERISTA programme, which was intended to improve's the army conventional warfare capabilities. Funds were tight and there was nothing else in the market to arm the Scorpion and Sibmas, apart from 76mmm guns. For an army who's main focus is internal security or counter insurgency, the 90mm gun in my opinion remains perfect for the fire support role. On paper at least....

 

[Ananda]

We can only guess why the Malaysian army doesn't plan to get more 90mm's - whether its because the 90mms penetrating performance leaves a lot to be desired compared to larger calibre guns or for other reasons. My guess it's because additional 90mm armed vehicles dont fit in the overall scheme of things, that of developing an all arms force, geared to convential warfare.

It's important to bear in mind that the Scorpion and Sibmas were bought during the PERISTA programme, which was intended to improve's the army conventional warfare capabilities. Funds were tight and there was nothing else in the market to arm the Scorpion and Sibmas, apart from 76mmm guns. For an army who's main focus is internal security or counter insurgency, the 90mm gun in my opinion remains perfect for the fire support role. On paper at least....

In which back to main question, if 90 mm low-mid pressure guns like Cockerill were in the end more suited only to relatively low intensity unconventional armed conflict, then lower calibre but much rapid guns will be in my opinion better suited. Thus those 90 mm in my opinion somewhat out of place. Can't provide sufficient alternative to 105 mm in conventional environment while in same time little unnecessary in lower intensity conflict.

 

[STURM]

In which back to main question, if 90 mm low-mid pressure guns like Cockerill were in the end more suited only to relatively low intensity unconventional armed conflict, then lower calibre but much rapid guns will be in my opinion better suited.

But lower calibre auto cannons dont provide the same penetrating effect against buildings and bunkers the way a 90mm and 76mm guns do . I think it really depends if the army in question has heavier armed AFVs in service. Some armies may have a requirement for an 105mm armed AFV but might have to settle for something smaller due to budgetary constraints. Now that the Malaysian army has MBTs and its infantry units have improved firepower at section level, the best solution IMO would be to bin the Cockerills and armed the Scorpions with an automatic 30mm.

 

[Chino]

Ananda

IIRC both SAF and TNI operates the AMX10 PAC90 that also has a 90mm gun. This is definitely not a Cockerill 90mm gun so it uses a different 90mm ammo, right?

 

[Ananda]

Ananda

IIRC both SAF and TNI operates the AMX10 PAC90 that also has a 90mm gun. This is definitely not a Cockerill 90mm gun so it uses a different 90mm ammo, right?

So far I have only found sources in here that say Cockerill 90 mm used by Scorpion and PT 76. However as far as I can found, Cockerill 90 mm used standard nato ammo. Thus supposed in my oppinion Cockerill 90 mm can share same ammo with French 90 mm on AMX 10. But still need to find confirmation.

 

[STURM]

Just remembered that prior to receiving the 90mm armed Scorpion's and Sibmas's in the mid -80's, the Malaysian army and Royal Malaysian Police already had a fleet of 90mm equipped V-150's. In 1979, an army V-15o armed with a 90mm was hit by an RPG-2 killing all onboard. I have no idea though where the 90mm's on the V-150's were manufactured.

MY had some AML-90s as well which were procured in the early 70s.

It did, about 25 I think, armed with twin MG's. They weren't operated for long and according to an article in a local magazine the Panhards weren't very popular.

 

[Ananda]

Just remembered that prior to receiving the 90mm armed Scorpion's and Sibmas's in the mid -80's, the Malaysian army and Royal Malaysian Police already had a fleet of 90mm equipped V-150's. In 1979, an army V-15o armed with a 90mm was hit by an RPG-2 killing all onboard. I have no idea though where the 90mm's on the V-150's were manufactur

In my oppinion where those thin armored vehicles should use additional armoured packages rather than heavier gun. Still many those vehicles acquaired by armies that was not expected fighting adversaries armed by guns heavier than 12.7 mm.

 

[STURM]

In my oppinion where those thin armored vehicles should use additional armoured packages rather than heavier gun.

The AFV with the thickest armour in the Malaysian army until the arrival of the MIFV, followed by the Adnan and PT-91 was the Ferret, first delivered in the late 50's!
Off -topic I know with regards to this thread being on the Malaysian army but which AFV in TNI service would be the most armour protected?