Malaysian Army/Land forces discussions

[Dzirhan]

No, the one man turret is still the Denel turret.
Let me clarify a bit on this, the AV8 is the only AFV for the program and will consist of a family of vehicles. They will replace the Sibmas in the KAD battalions doing the cavalry/recce role with the Cavalry variant and the condors in the motorised infantry battalions with the infantry transport variant. The two man turret with 30mm makes sense for the cavalry vehicle since it will carry less personnel (3 man crew +4-6personnel) with the space devoted to ammo etc while the infantry with 25mm gun or 7.62mm RCWS will have space for troops (8-10 incl driver and commander) The turret design is modular so you can put either the 30mm or 25mm so it's a construction will be easy and no need to build two seperate turrets. You can see pretty much the variants here at

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[DavidDCM]

That is very interesting.

I also read in your colleague Marhalim Abbas' blog that there are thoughts about replacing the Adnan's turret with a Denel design. Are the troops dissatisfied with its performance?

 

[STURM]

Thanks Dzirhan for the clarification. Much appreciated. I've noticed that in another forum, you've been having a bit of a frustrating time explaining things.

In the coming years, it will be very interesting to see what the army intends to replace the Scorpion with. I like the Scorpion, I think its perfect for the recce role being much smaller and more nimble than an 8x8. I feel that the best thing that could be done would be to bin the 90mm Cockerill and mount an auto cannon or even a 12.7mm/Mk 19 combo. Granted, when the Scorpion was bought the intention was for it to be a fire support vehicle, but now with the PT-91, the Adnan and the improved firepower in infantry sections, I feel that the revelance for operating the Scorpion as a fire supprt vehicle is gone. Apart from the weight penalty and the stress on the hull caused by the 90mm, I'm uncomfortable with a fire support vehicle that is only protected from 7.62mm. Any thoughts on this David?

 

[DavidDCM]

I think the Scorpion will serve on for quite some time. In 2008 Deftech received a contract to refurbish the Scorpions and Stormers, this program is still continuing as Deftech exhibited stripped down Scorpion components on last week's DSA. This should also treat the stress fracture issues. So I guess the army does not plan to phase them out quickly, despite the fact that they are even older than the Sibmas and Condor.

The Scorpion's value as fire support asset has greatly diminished in recent years, that is right. But it still has it's value. The Para brigade uses a squadron of Scorpions and Stormers as they are they are air transportable. This squadron could be beefed up if need be. Recce could also be a role, similar to it's original role with the British. But personally I prefer wheeld vehicles for that job. An alternative I could think of would be to relocate them to East Malaysia, where the PT-91M's and Adnans play no role and where the army lacks armored vehicles to screen the long border.

 

[Dzirhan]

No idea on whether troops are unhappy with the turret on Adnan, but my guess is that more likely that when AV8 comes into operation, the parts on the sharpshooter turret may be reaching the end of service life so it may make more sense to standardise turrets and more so since Deftech is supposed to be able to build the denel turret in country along with parts, it may be also the Mech battalions may want a 30mm gun over the 25mm sharpshooter.

The AV8 armor calls for proof against 12.7mm AP. BTW David in regard to the 2008 contract for Adnans, they are in process of delivering final vehicles and after that will discuss with Army on future orders according to Deftech CEO. What was of interest to me was when I asked the Defetch Chariman about the status of Caesar, he told me he could not talk about it, wonder if the partnership Deftech has with the french on that is being dissolved. On East Malaysia, much of the border is impassible to vehicles and very underdeveloped hence the reason why very little vehicles deployed there.

 

[STURM]

David, the Scorpion indeed still has a vital role to play but IMO as a recce and not a fire support vehicle. With the 90mm, the Scorpion is to heavy and unweildy, this defeats the purpose as the Scorpion is meant to be a light, fast and nimble vehicle with low ground pressure. And as recce vehicle it should be armed with no more than an auto cannon or a 12.7mm/40mm AGL combo.
Given the choice, what would you replace it with, the Fennec, BMP or Weasel?
I can't think of any other vehicles in this weight class that would be suitable to serve as a recce platform.

 

[Point Defence]

David, here's a few tank related questions for you... You mentioned in another forum that the Vigy 15 on the PT-91M is not equipped with a thermal for the commander. I was really suprised to learn this. Eveything else was done,
[1] Slovakian gun
[2] Vigy 15
[3] EADS fast turret drive
[4] mine protected seat for the driver
[5] uprated engine and new transmission
[6] Thales comms
[7] co-axial MAG58 and pintle mounted HMG
[8] new FCS
BUT no thermal for the commander.
Doesn't the commander not having a thermal defeat the the purpose of having a panaromic sight with 360 coverage. Correct me if i'm wrong but the whole point of having a panaromic sight is so the crew is provided with a hunter killer capability, the abilty to engage a target whilst the commander is acquiring other targets. Do you know if the driver has an II or a thermal? Despite earlier reports that Wegmann smoke launchers had been selected, I believe the PT-91 still has the Polish ones.

The termal sights on the original Polish Twardy was the TES - Thermal Elbow Sight - (total number of delivered thermal sights is 202). The TES thermovision night sight is developed by the Israeli company ELOP. It is integrated with the Polish designed FCS, maybe that is why the FCS was changed.

Anyone has comments on this.

 

[DavidDCM]

Malaysia does not use Israeli made technology for political reasons. So an Israeli-made thermal imager is a no-go for them.

-------

STURM, I personally prefer wheeled vehicles due to lower noise emission, so among these three, I would choose the Fennek. But that is my personal opinion, not a general rule. There are good reasons to use a tracked platform, especially their higher cross country mobility. I see no essential advantages that the Wiesel or the BMP would offer over the Scorpion.

I don't know how much the 90 mm gun compromises the Scorpion's agility, but I can't imagine that it has such a massive impact. The 90 mm gun offers advantages over the autocannon when it comes to attack fortified positions. If used in recce role, a thermal imager for observation purposes would be a nice thing to have.

 

[DavidDCM]

Sorry for double post

No idea on whether troops are unhappy with the turret on Adnan, but my guess is that more likely that when AV8 comes into operation, the parts on the sharpshooter turret may be reaching the end of service life so it may make more sense to standardise turrets and more so since Deftech is supposed to be able to build the denel turret in country along with parts, it may be also the Mech battalions may want a 30mm gun over the 25mm sharpshooter.

The AV8 armor calls for proof against 12.7mm AP. BTW David in regard to the 2008 contract for Adnans, they are in process of delivering final vehicles and after that will discuss with Army on future orders according to Deftech CEO. What was of interest to me was when I asked the Defetch Chariman about the status of Caesar, he told me he could not talk about it, wonder if the partnership Deftech has with the french on that is being dissolved. On East Malaysia, much of the border is impassible to vehicles and very underdeveloped hence the reason why very little vehicles deployed there.

Thanks on that information. End of service life is probably a perfectly reasonable explanation.

I had thought the Caesar deal to be dead already since long, but of course you are much closer to the source, so you probably heard much more about it than I could read. I would have loved to see the deal go through though, but I hadn't read anything about it for years now.

East Malaysia is not suited for armored maneuvre warfare, but an armoured vehicle, even a small and lightly armoured one like the Scorpion, can be a great force multiplier in strongpoint defence or attack. It may be vulnerable to almost anything bigger than an assault rifle, but in light infantry combat (which is to be expected in Borneo), a protected mobile gun can be the decisive trump card. The Indonesians by the way operate at least five AMX-13 on Borneo, stationed in Pontianak. And this might become even more soon, according to their newest plans.

 

[STURM]

I had thought the Caesar deal to be dead already since long, but of course you are much closer to the source

There was an article recently, I forgot where, that said the army had actually selected the Thunder but the economic slowdown prevented a contract. Dzirhan would probably know more. It's a tough choice the way I see it, something like the Caeser is more agile and can operate better on main/secondary Malaysian roads and plantations but a tracked gun like the K-9 Thunder provides the crew with protection. In terms of rate of fire and FCS I'm not sure though how the K-9 Thunder compares to the AS90 or M-109 but it certainly is lighter and cheaper. What are your thoughts on this - tracked or wheeled?

I don't know how much the 90 mm gun compromises the Scorpion's agility, but I can't imagine that it has such a massive impact. The 90 mm gun offers advantages over the autocannon when it comes to attack fortified positions.

From what I've been told from people in the army, the 90mm does compromise the Scorpion's agility. Though it's was marketed by Cockerill as a low pressure gun I believe its just too heavy for the hull of the Scorpion and it's a waste as the whole point of the Scorpions size is speed and agility. Granted, when the Scorpion was ordered there was no intention of getting anything larger so a compromise was made.

A local mag has even mentioned how Scorpion crews are wary of firing the 90mm on uneven ground as the recoil might cause the Scorpion to tilt!! The 90mm does provide the ability to deal with bunkers/fortifications unlike a 20/30mm cannon but the question is whether in any future non-insurgency scenario the army will find itself facing fortiications. Anyhow, wouldn't a thermobaric warhead do a better job against fortifications rather than an HE 90mm round?

 

[DavidDCM]

A disciplined infantry unit can fortify their position in short time so never underestimate the possibilty of makeshift fortified positions in any war scenario. A single thermobaric warhead from a shoulder launched weapon might be more destructive than a HE round, but guns offer way more advantages to make up for this, like higher range, higher rate of fire, more ammunition, mobility and protection for the user.

If Malaysia was planning to use the Scorpion as pure recce vehicle than a 20-30 mm cannon would be better as they would try to avoid fighting. But as they are planning to keep operating it as fire support vehicle together with the Stomer APC, it is wise to keep the 90 mm gun with it's decent destructive power. The recoil must be massive, but the Scorpion was never intended to "shoot from all angles" like a real tank. It's meant to assist the infantry by firing from rather static positions with less maneuvering compared to fully mechanized "Europe-style" tank warfare. So the tilting problem, while of course a weak point, is not a total disaster. As the Scorpions are always used in liaison with the Stormer who has a 20 mm, I would definitely prefer the 90 mm gun to have more options in combat.

 

[STURM]

The Malaysian ministry of Defence has confirmed delivery of the Czech VERA ground based ESM system. Though interest was first officially shown in it in 2004 for some reason no news was released until now. The VERA is operated by GAPU which operates all the army's air defence assets. A Malaysian company in partnership with the Ukrainians had previously offered the Kolchuga.

 

[Dzirhan]

Actually was disclosed publicly in 2008 Mindef annual report released last year.

 

[STURM]

Actually was disclosed publicly in 2008 Mindef annual report released last year.

Thanks for the info Dzirhan, I had no idea. Prior to the Berita Harian article in which the Deputy Deputy Defence Minister confirmed delivery of the VERA , was there any other official statement made about it by a government official? Also, do you know if the contract was for 1 or 2 VERA's?

 

[Dzirhan]

2 if I recall correctly (annual rpt did not disclose no, just listed it as one of the procurements made) and if I'm not mistaken acknowldgement of the Vera-E deal came out in during press conferences I attended in 08 and 09, either with then CDF Gen. Aziz or CoA Gen.Ismail First mention of the deal were stories file by Khoo of China press and myself for Janes in 07 or 08 on the contract signing, though CDF Aziz though declined to confirm it to us when we asked at that time.

 

[Chino]

Regarding the Scorpion 90mm gun...

As I understand it, it is a relatively low velocity weapon. Because the Scorpion chassis simply cannot handle it.

If this is correct, then how effective is the 90mm gun in penetrating armour? Can it defeat most APC/IFV common in the region?

Or another way of looking at it will be: which is more effective in defeating armour for the Scorpion/Scimitar series: the 90mm Cockerill or the 30mm Rarden?

 

[STURM]

Dzirhan, I find it strange that after it being shown by STRIDE at Merdeka 2007, the government has classified the Tamingsari as a national secret [is that the right word to use in English?]. I could be wrong here as I'm relying totally on the Berita Harian article which I found online but most annoyingly can't be found anymore. According to Prasun Sengupta in his blog, Tamingsari is a collaborative effort involving Pakistan, China and Malaysia, being based on the Russian Krasnapol. I'm not sure how accurate his claim is however but Tamingsari, as it was shown in 2007 sure looks more like a guided 155mm round than has often been described, a missile.

If this is correct, then how effective is the 90mm gun in penetrating armour? Can it defeat most APC/IFV common in the region?

I'm guessing that the 90mm will be able to defeat most APCs/IFVs in the region. The problem is that the Scorpion has to stop and shoot as the gun is not stabilised. The same applies to many other 90mm armed wheeled vehicles but in the 80's, South African 90mm armed Elands did knock out a few T-54/55s in Angola, whether frontally or on the sides I'm unsure. I suspect that the 75mm gun used on the AMX-13 might be more effective for anti-armour use as I believe it has a higher velocity.

I've been told that the 30mm Rarden as mounted on the Schimitar can only be fire semi-automaticly, from 3 round clips. Is this correct?

Or another way of looking at it will be: which is more effective in defeating armour for the Scorpion/Scimitar series: the 90mm Cockerill or the 30mm Rarden?

My preference is a rapid firing 30mm or 25mm gun for dealing with light armour. In the case of the Malaysian Army, the Scorpion was meant to provide fire support, [knocking out armour was secondary], in line with the army's threat perceptions and operational requirements of that era, hence the 90mm gun. I'm not sure if the army was initially keen on a heavier vehicle but was forced to settle on the Scorpion due to financial realities or for other reasons.

In more recent times, the TNI-AD has followed the same route in going with a 90mm Scorpion. Perhaps Ananda will be able to clarify if these are meant for the recce or fire support role? In my opinion, if meant to be used purely for the recce role, vehicles should not be armed with anything bigger than a 25mm/30mm gun. In fact many will say that even a 25mm/30mm gun is an overkill and that a 7.62mm/40mm AGL combo will do.

 

[Dzirhan]

Think you're correct on Taming Sari being a 155mm guided round, not sure what it's status is but I'm guessing the project has been cancelled given the fact that there's little viability for it especially since we do not have that many 155mm guns in the first place

 

[STURM]

but I'm guessing the project has been cancelled given the fact that there's little viability for it especially since we do not have that many 155mm guns in the first place

28 155mms as opposed to a 100 odd 105mm's.... A legacy of the army's counter insurgency linage hwell Another problem is that that STRIDE probably remains underfunded.

 

[Dzirhan]

22 G-5s operational of the 28 puchased